Josh Sawyer Explains: How to Balance an RPG - Extensive Editorial at Kotaku

[Stun]

You realize that a system that asks you to make yourself bad at the things you'll never do to be good at the things you'll always do isn't particularly cognitively demanding either, right?

The solution is to make it so that there's no dump stats - You know, where if a wizard does decide to dump a stat, it'd be a serious choice to make and the consequences for doing so would be that he'd pay for it at the *class level* - he'd be severely gimped because the stat he dumped was, in fact, a useful stat to pump regardless of his playstyle.

 

But we didn't get that. We got the opposite of that. We got a system where ALL stats are dump stats. They're all just minor bonuses (the damage difference between 3 might and 20 might is ~5 damage if you're using a *2-handed* weapon.)

Edited September 2, 2014 by Stun

[Grand_Commander13]

So the system is broken because the numbers are off. That's what you're saying?

 

Because I'll agree that the per-attribute-point numbers would probably be closer to what they should be if they were doubled (and the bases lowered to compensate), but you seem to be saying that this means that the attribute system is rotten from the core out, rather than being improperly balanced.

[Stun]

So the system is broken because the numbers are off. That's what you're saying?

Nope. The system certainly isn't broken at all. It's working precisely as designed.

 

The problem is that the design itself is crap. The attributes are cosmetic and don't have any sort of meaningful impact on a build in either direction. And Obsidian can't tweak the values too much otherwise it will be possible to create a bad build -which would go against the entire design philosophy.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Stun

[Silent Winter]

^But other than dumping all your stats (for which there can be the warning of unallocated stat points meaning you might not survive the game), there should still be good builds in that - i.e. if I dump con, I'd better stay off the front lines but my accuracy with a bow will be awesome, or  I can dump might and do little damage per hit but hit a large AOE / have long duration buffs/debuffs, or I can decide to be a tank that doesn't do much damage but soaks up blows like a punching bag.

I thought that was the point of the 'all stats for all classes' design, rather than stats not mattering at all.

 

A numbers tweak, as stated, along with the warning (and maybe a 'recommended' button for stat allocation and talent picks (a la NWN2)) would solve our problems as well as Josh's concerns about people playing a few hours then realising their build is gimped.

Suddenly finding it doesn't play the way you thought it would but having its own strengths to make the most of, doesn't go against the design goal.

 

(And being able to deliberately gimp your character is a nice side-effect for those who want to take that path)

[teknoman2]

 

This is an interesting reading but I wonder - when every option is as good as the next one doesn't it make choices less exciting?

Yes.

 

It also hurts replayability for people like me, who like to try and discover and play overpowered and underpowered builds for both role-play purposes and experimental purposes.

 

not exactly. a player with good conversation skills, will get out of certain situations easily by just talking. however when he comes across a situation where there is no room for words and steel must be drawn, he imediatelly has a disadvantage because he has not invested in combat skills

on the other hand, a guy who relies heavilly on his martial prowess but is the strong silent type, will be forced to fight enemies (even those he cant defeat), because he will be unable to pick another option when the time comes

that is the sort of balance Josh talks about. depending on your build, some parts of the game will be easier while others harder or you can make it so it all has about the same difficulty be it big or small

Edited September 2, 2014 by teknoman2

[nipsen]

So the general agreement seems to be that.... -- and I'm saying this well knowing that a forum consensus, no matter how reasonable it sounds, usually is comically wrong when actually tested -- seems to be that the design on the abstract level intends a max/min option that results in something like this: either a pin-prickle sized "fireball" with no splash-damage, but massive striking damage and near infinite armor penetration (max might/min int). Or else you can cast a country-sized cloud of bright red sparks that.. sting and annoy a tiny little bit for the rest of the game's duration (min might/max int).

 

In the same way, recovery times are intended to be adjusted so the "number of attacks" become massively less significant than in the IE games. While also making a quick and lightly armored fighter just as dangerous as a troll with a huge club, even though it's a completely different type of threat (with different weaknesses and counters, etc).

 

Overall making the system very dynamic, as well as easy to design different characters with, both for players and game-masters. Since the initial range of stats, more than the extra abilities you pick, identify the characters' abilities, strengths and weaknesses. Making the narrative and technical shake hands in a very friendly manner.

 

But that in practice, the min/max differences end up being the difference between a fireball that has slightly more or slightly less splash-damage (which the splash indicator doesn't seem to actually show correctly). While recovery and armor size versus resistance and dodge amounts to no real difference when fighting any number of enemies, in a fight that lasts less than 30 minutes and 10.000 hit-points, so that approximate average values can be expected to have occurred, etc.

 

...close enough so far?

[Infinitron]

Nope. The system certainly isn't broken at all. It's working precisely as designed.

 

Citation needed.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67761-dps-vs-accuracy-deflection-heres-the-maths-enjoy/page-4?do=findComment&comment=1493485

[Stun]

You want citation that Josh promised us "no bad builds" and then delivered a system where you can't make a bad build if you try, due to the fact that dumping all your stats to 3 incurs you a bonus, instead of a penalty?

 

Ok, I cite this Beta. Would you like a screen shot too? Or have you seen enough of them at Codex?

[PrimeJunta]

@Stun, you do realize that you're talking about accounting values only?

 

If you make the base value 10 and apply a 1-point bonus for every attribute point over 10 and a 1-point penalty for every point below 10, you'll end up with a range from 1 to 18. This is exactly the same thing as making the base value 0 and applying a 1-point bonus for every attribute point.

 

I.e., you can get the spread to exactly where you want by adjusting the base value and bonus per point. If you think it's aesthetically more pleasing to drag the zero point up, that won't affect the gameplay at all.

[UpgrayeDD]

What's so funny, @UpgrayDD? That is his stated intent. How well he is succeeding is another matter entirely. (ATM not that well, but we'll see how it goes once additional talents are in.)

. It's funny because Joshes' idea of freedom seems to be getting to do whatever you want within a 20 foot cubical. Plus you are surrounded by rounded corners and bubble wrap. And these nifty knee pads and helmet are pretty frisking sweet dude. I made the choice of coloring mine blue. Edited September 2, 2014 by UpgrayeDD

[UpgrayeDD]

And as a side note I want to mention that I do have a lot of respect for Josh and understand that achieving his goal is something that is not possible without making the choices so unimpactful on gameplay that they by necessity will be underwhelming in scale. If I wanted to design a game system in which I could design my characters by a dart board I would do they same thing he is doing now.

To clarify I can live with the current design of damage stat, accuracy stat, ability size stat. What bothers me so much is that the difference between Heman and Squeaky voiced teen seems to amount to nothing. The current stat system isn't freedom it's a mock choice. Do I want a liter of cola or 1.03 liters of cola?

[PrimeJunta]

A bit LTTP, UpgrayDD. I just went over this with Stun, and even he ended up admitting that Josh's design approach does not necessarily lead to the conclusion you're presenting.

 

The fact that the beta currently has too-wimpy stats is neither here nor there.