Ranged versus Melee

[Valorian]

There are several advantages of focusing on ranged attacks (with weapons, abilities and spells).

 

The cardinal advantage is less reliance on defensive capabilities, which favors a full offense approach:

 

a) DT is not needed as much -> shorter recovery time between actions

b) Some attributes are less important for them -> free to completely focus on damage, accuracy and duration

c) Defensive talents are less of a must than for combatants in the front line -> even more space to focus on offense 

d) Less likely to have their actions interrupted

 

Positioning:

-moving freely (no engagement)

-focusing the preferred target is easier

 

Ranged weapons with devastating damage, that annihilate DT even on grazes, constitute another advantage.

 

What can be done? I'll divide it into 3 parts.

 

 

PART 1)

 

Reduce the impact of might and dexterity on all ranged attacks.

 

Instead of, say, 20 might converting into +40% damage for ranged attacks, it would be +30% (3/4) or even +20% (1/2).

 

This will make other attribute options relatively more appealing for characters who focus on ranged combat.

 

 

PART 2) 

 

Resolve gets another component (on top of concentration), useful for everyone: Morale.

 

Effects of Morale:

 

If you miss or graze twice in a row, there is a chance that your subsequent attacks will be executed with a penalty to accuracy and damage until you hit or crit.

The base chance of that happening is 100%, reduced by [Resolve x 4]%.

Said penalty would be greater for ranged attacks (e.g., -12 acc., -12% dam.) than for melee (-5, -5%).

 

 

Since precision is of utmost importance for ranged characters, it isn't odd to think that "shaky hands" would have a greater impact on their combat prowess.

(Concentration, on the other hand, is more valuable to melee combatants).

 

 

PART 3)

 

Constitution.  I suggest adding a mechanic called Exhaustion (or Stamina, if stamina gets renamed to endurance).

 

Effects of exhaustion:

Characters and creatures would be able to run for a specific amount of time (substantially modified by Constitution) during combat before becoming exhausted. Exhausted = 50% movement speed. The timer for exhaustion would activate only when clicking on open ground to move, during combat, and not when you click on opponents to attack them; thus affects only people and creatures who run away from combat. (AI wouldn't be debilitated by this unless it's programmed to run away.)

 

Health and stamina are obviously more important to people who actually stand toe-to-toe with foes and take hits.

If a party member is not suited for melee combat and gets targeted by monsters, what do you do? No, there's no need to panic, you just click on the character and keep moving him away from the monster(s). The character will keep running in circles during the process of dismantling monsters with ranged attacks. A melee character who's already engaged will have to deal with disengagement attacks first.

It also eliminates a popular exploit.

[Zansatsu]

Typically this is the case. The trade off is should the range get focused they melt. I don't know if there is any intelligence in the enemies who might go after higher threat targets that would help even it out because I haven't played. Typically though the trade off in higher defenses is lower dps. The issue comes in how to make the top end damage / low defense characters balance out with the higher defense lower damage characters in a fight. However I don't even know if this balance is being sought since it is party based.

[Elerond]

For part three there is already Exhaustion mechanic, although it is governed by athletics skill instead of constitution

[Sensuki]

Melee Engagement also protects ranged characters. Right now there's a huge swing for ranged over melee, whereas that wasn't necessarily the case in the IE games - unless you used kiting.

[Gromnir]

Melee Engagement also protects ranged characters. Right now there's a huge swing for ranged over melee, whereas that wasn't necessarily the case in the IE games - unless you used kiting.

actually, bg were ridiculous broken in favor o' ranged. iwd, at the minimum, made adjustments to grandmastery and ranged weapons. one o' the more ridiculous bg2  board battles were the fight to save ranged combat efficacy.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Suburban-Fox]

But might makes a huge difference in ranged attacks in real life, so this is totally realistic!! You know how gangsta gunmen shoot? This is actually for a good reason, because turning the gun on its side and "throwing" the bullets allows you to project your physical strength into the shot, giving it more power. XD

 

Seriously though, in most RPGs, ranged attacks are ridiculously underpowered - you can hit a fly from 100 yards away but you need to shoot it 8 times before it dies. I'd rather see ranged attacks more effective but less easy to hit, especially at longer ranges or when the target is in melee - have you ever tried to shoot somebody who is in a fight in Mount and Blade? It can be done but it's not easy.

[Zansatsu]

But might makes a huge difference in ranged attacks in real life, so this is totally realistic!! You know how gangsta gunmen shoot? This is actually for a good reason, because turning the gun on its side and "throwing" the bullets allows you to project your physical strength into the shot, giving it more power. XD

 

Seriously though, in most RPGs, ranged attacks are ridiculously underpowered - you can hit a fly from 100 yards away but you need to shoot it 8 times before it dies. I'd rather see ranged attacks more effective but less easy to hit, especially at longer ranges or when the target is in melee - have you ever tried to shoot somebody who is in a fight in Mount and Blade? It can be done but it's not easy.

This is a good point whether or not it is actually built in, but once ranged characters get forced into mele range their effectiveness would drop. Realistically trying to pull arrows and draw a bow, or even reload a musket would be quite difficult with a sword being swung in your face.

[Suburban-Fox]

This is a good point whether or not it is actually built in, but once ranged characters get forced into mele range their effectiveness would drop. Realistically trying to pull arrows and draw a bow, or even reload a musket would be quite difficult with a sword being swung in your face.

 

 

Actually I was more referring to trying to shoot at somebody who's engaged in melee combat, but...yeah, that too! There should be penalties both to attacks and to defence when trying to melee with a ranged weapon, and penalties to hit targets that are engaged in melee.

[Zansatsu]

I'd rather see ranged attacks more effective but less easy to hit, especially at longer ranges or when the target is in melee

Sorry that sentence came off to me like you were referring to the ranged being in combat in mele range but you where just short handing it. "or when the target is in mele" thought u just left out the word range.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Zansatsu

[PrimeJunta]

Yep, heavy ranged weapons are currently OP relative to anything else (other than magic). I don't care for the OP's proposed solution though; adding more mechanics or applying different adjustment rates to different attacks would only complicate things further, whereas this is IMO relatively easily addressed by simple tuning of base damage, accuracy, and recovery time values plus tweaks to enemy AI so it targets squishies more aggressively.

 

A morale system would be nice, even a rudimentary one, but it should manifest as morale breaking and enemies running away rather than bonuses/penalties to combat stats. (It worked well in many of the IE games.) The trouble with those kinds of adjustments is that they're hard to make properly transparent; you'll just see your character continuously missing without a clear indication why. As it is it's difficult enough to tell what's going on and why your character isn't doing any damage.

Edited August 26, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[limaxophobiacq]

 

A morale system would be nice, even a rudimentary one, but it should manifest as morale breaking and enemies running away

 

Hunting enemies running scared halfway across the map was never any fun when it happened in IE, no enemies running away please it's too annoying.

[Sensuki]

actually, bg were ridiculous broken in favor o' ranged. iwd, at the minimum, made adjustments to grandmastery and ranged weapons. one o' the more ridiculous bg2  board battles were the fight to save ranged combat efficacy.

IWD1 Rangers using bows were more broken than anything in BG1 IMO

[Azrael Ultima]

Melee Engagement also protects ranged characters. Right now there's a huge swing for ranged over melee, whereas that wasn't necessarily the case in the IE games - unless you used kiting.

Yet at the same time, it also promotes your group containing melee characters, since you need somebody to engage those enemies. Preferably someone who can take a few blows, as well.

 

In the end, this just means that the characters in your party can specialise. I fail to see the problem with that.

If ranged characters are so powerful that they don't need a melee to keep enemy attention away, then we have problem.

[Sensuki]

You just need a Fighter, and that's it really. The Fighter as a class is currently a boring class to play as well.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

For part three there is already Exhaustion mechanic, although it is governed by athletics skill instead of constitution

 

Do we know the exact effects of fatigue, particularly, does fatigue affect movement speed in combat?

 

 

But might makes a huge difference in ranged attacks in real life, so this is totally realistic!! You know how gangsta gunmen shoot? This is actually for a good reason, because turning the gun on its side and "throwing" the bullets allows you to project your physical strength into the shot, giving it more power. XD

 

 

I am persuading myself to accept might, in scripted interactions at least, as a binary system: strength (for warrior types) or TELEKINESIS (for spellcasters). Still, the whole 'soul propelled bullets' thing is a bit weird.

 

 

Yep, heavy ranged weapons are currently OP relative to anything else (other than magic). I don't care for the OP's proposed solution though; adding more mechanics or applying different adjustment rates to different attacks would only complicate things further, whereas this is IMO relatively easily addressed by simple tuning of base damage, accuracy, and recovery time values plus tweaks to enemy AI so it targets squishies more aggressively.

 

A morale system would be nice, even a rudimentary one, but it should manifest as morale breaking and enemies running away rather than bonuses/penalties to combat stats. (It worked well in many of the IE games.) The trouble with those kinds of adjustments is that they're hard to make properly transparent; you'll just see your character continuously missing without a clear indication why. As it is it's difficult enough to tell what's going on and why your character isn't doing any damage.

 

Ranged and melee accuracy are already separated for all classes. This is not a source of "complicating things further". The purpose is to further fine-tune classes, with their strengths and weaknesses in mind. The same is true for adjusting the impact of specific attributes on ranged and melee actions. Tweaking AI to simply go for the squishy one is not as easy as it sounds; the AI has to deal with the engagement mechanic.

 

The point was to link morale (the name could be changed if it confuses people) to an attribute, resolve, that is more or less a dump stat for ranged characters and make it more useful for them.

Morale breaking and fear effects in general are hard disables. These things are hard to balance, especially if they're the core element of an attribute. Also, as has been mentioned, it's not fun to constantly chase people around in large open areas.  

 

I believe it often boils down to people perceiving stuff that they don't understand as useless or unnecessary. As an example, if someone admits they don't understand a particular mechanic (What exactly do I interrupt? The enemy's attack? Only spellcasting? Something else?) and then proceeds to declare it's useless while simultaneously offering balance suggestions, we should take that person's balance feedback with a grain of salt. 

[Zoolimar]

I think most problems with seemingly more powerful ranged options go from almost nonexistant AI of the enemies.

 

If NPCs will have better AI then ranged characters won't be able to act with as many advantages especially if enemy group has its own ranged combatatnts.

[PrimeJunta]

BTW Sensuki, I found one of the badass hidden weapons and that suddenly made melee a lot more viable. I have a hunch that the current heavy ranged dominance may have something to do with out-of-whack gear.

[Valorian]

I think most problems with seemingly more powerful ranged options go from almost nonexistant AI of the enemies.

 

If NPCs will have better AI then ranged characters won't be able to act with as many advantages especially if enemy group has its own ranged combatatnts.

 

Sure, but regardless, AI will have problems reaching ranged targets because of:

 

a) melee engagement

b) unrestricted movement for people outside of melee engagement [addressed in part 3]

 

 

 

Also, PrJu, simply "rebalancing" ranged weapons won't solve the issue of certain attributes being less useful for characters who focus on ranged attacks.

[Gromnir]

 

actually, bg were ridiculous broken in favor o' ranged. iwd, at the minimum, made adjustments to grandmastery and ranged weapons. one o' the more ridiculous bg2  board battles were the fight to save ranged combat efficacy.

IWD1 Rangers using bows were more broken than anything in BG1 IMO

 

disagree. bg1 excessive bow powha was a topic discussed on the iwd boards as a matter o' fact.  a bg1 fighter with grandmastery in bows would make any iwd ranger build look like a child wielding one of those plastic toy bows with the suction-cup arrows. the howls o' anguish that inexplicably rose up from the bg bow fans were defeaning when they understood that bis were nerfing bows.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

Except that you couldn't get Grand Mastery with any weapons in BG1 unless you cheated. Can only get High Mastery at the TotSC XP cap 161000 (for Fighters, level 8 - 125,000 XP)

 

edit: sorry, no you can if you cheese dual classing.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Sensuki

[Kjaamor]

disagree. bg1 excessive bow powha was a topic discussed on the iwd boards as a matter o' fact.  a bg1 fighter with grandmastery in bows would make any iwd ranger build look like a child wielding one of those plastic toy bows with the suction-cup arrows. the howls o' anguish that inexplicably rose up from the bg bow fans were defeaning when they understood that bis were nerfing bows.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It was my experience that grandmastery in bows was hardly needed anyway. I found that my level 2-3 archer thief (pure thief, proficient with shortbows) was not only doing more damage but was tactically far more useful than any of my melee classes.

 

For all the power of those pesky Quadratic mages, a Baldur's Gate party where five of your party are skilled with bows will destroy just about everything that is in the vanilla game that has flesh on its bones.

 

My experience of PoE so far (which is limited due to my frequent, 32-bit, crashes) is that ranged characters are nowhere near as powerful as they were in BG.

[Gromnir]

 

disagree. bg1 excessive bow powha was a topic discussed on the iwd boards as a matter o' fact.  a bg1 fighter with grandmastery in bows would make any iwd ranger build look like a child wielding one of those plastic toy bows with the suction-cup arrows. the howls o' anguish that inexplicably rose up from the bg bow fans were defeaning when they understood that bis were nerfing bows.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It was my experience that grandmastery in bows was hardly needed anyway. I found that my level 2-3 archer thief (pure thief, proficient with shortbows) was not only doing more damage but was tactically far more useful than any of my melee classes.

 

For all the power of those pesky Quadratic mages, a Baldur's Gate party where five of your party are skilled with bows will destroy just about everything that is in the vanilla game that has flesh on its bones.

 

My experience of PoE so far (which is limited due to my frequent, 32-bit, crashes) is that ranged characters are nowhere near as powerful as they were in BG.

 

grandmastery wasn't needed. however, bis tried to do some things to curb bow power. one was addressing bow proficiency. sensuki mentions totsc levels, but of course even with totsc, iwd levels were higher. regardless, the iwd developers were quite aware that bows in bg were silly powerful, thus they tried making changes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[NeV3rKilL]

 

I think most problems with seemingly more powerful ranged options go from almost nonexistant AI of the enemies.

 

If NPCs will have better AI then ranged characters won't be able to act with as many advantages especially if enemy group has its own ranged combatatnts.

 

Sure, but regardless, AI will have problems reaching ranged targets because of:

 

a) melee engagement

b) unrestricted movement for people outside of melee engagement [addressed in part 3]

 

 

 

Also, PrJu, simply "rebalancing" ranged weapons won't solve the issue of certain attributes being less useful for characters who focus on ranged attacks.

 

melee engadgement is not so powerful. I moved my characters away from foes and my heroes maybe recieved an extra hit but anything else. It is really easy to breack engament right now. I prefer a method with aggro, spells to taunt foes and the foes going to kill the high dps people instead of stay attached to the tank waiting for their dead.

 

But this game is gonna be like baldurs in that sense, so...

[GreyFox]

 

 

actually, bg were ridiculous broken in favor o' ranged. iwd, at the minimum, made adjustments to grandmastery and ranged weapons. one o' the more ridiculous bg2  board battles were the fight to save ranged combat efficacy.

IWD1 Rangers using bows were more broken than anything in BG1 IMO

 

disagree. bg1 excessive bow powha was a topic discussed on the iwd boards as a matter o' fact.  a bg1 fighter with grandmastery in bows would make any iwd ranger build look like a child wielding one of those plastic toy bows with the suction-cup arrows. the howls o' anguish that inexplicably rose up from the bg bow fans were defeaning when they understood that bis were nerfing bows.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

At least you could have your fighter specialize in bows in those games...

[Valorian]

 

melee engadgement is not so powerful. I moved my characters away from foes and my heroes maybe recieved an extra hit but anything else. It is really easy to breack engament right now. 

 

 

You're right, it's more a matter of being able to exploit the AI by moving your character away from the predator indefinitely, which wouldn't be possible with some kind of exhaustion mechanic.