Backer beta: Developer Impressions

[Marceror]

 

I find it odd that no one is railing him for his comments about turn based combat. When I've made effectively the exact same observation I tend to get flamed for it. I guess it must be his holy aura protecting him!

In George's case (or at least in the context of the passage) I don't think it's so much an absolute preference for Turn based combat as it is simple gamer instinct. He thought combat was too fast, and would have benefitted from being slowed down a bit so the player can see the complexity of the system more clearly. Well? Turn based is the obvious solution to that. It's slower. But note that he also suggested that they simply slow things down....and that's what lots and lots of people here are suggesting. 

 

I don't have an absolute preference for turn based either. I merely mentioned that with all of the combat abilities characters have, turn based may have been a better direction for the game. I coined the term pause-with-real-time, because that's appropo to how I've come to regard combat. I spend more of my time paused, issuing commands, making sure my positioning is right, party members aren't humping, etc. A short burst of real time follows, and then back to pause. At least, until I'm certain I can just let the combat play out without any real risk to my party.

 

Combat still needs to be refined a lot, but I actually don't mind the pause with real time thing that much. And I was raised on real time with pause with the infinity engine games. But again, if I'm totally honest, turn based is probably the ideal solution.

 

But ultimately I don't care. As long as the combat system works, I'm good with any flavor of those options.

[Mayama]

 

I disagree with his criticism on inventory size (opinions..opinions...).

Really? You think 8 slots per character is enough? Not I. I found it rather tiresome having to do inventory house cleaning (moving things from the inventory to the stash) every other encounter because someone got "Full".

 

 

For me the problem with the current system is that I cant organize stuff. In BG i could throw all scrolls in one inventory, all potions in another one etc... I wouldnt even care if I could only access it while resting but multible pages of inventory space was really a qualitiy of life thing for me.

[PrimeJunta]

Haha cool! Developers are gamers too! Lots of familiar comments there... and at least the pro-combat-XP camp now has a champion worthy of carrying the banner.

 

There's only one part where my experience is drastically different: the AoE spells. I've found them vastly powerful. I've used the cone, ball, line, and wall-shaped ones extensively, and they make winning battles easy. Also controlling the battlefield to the extent that you can place them effectively isn't as hard as he says, even with the sorry state the combat is currently in.

[Gromnir]

leferd said: He helped flesh out some of the world lore and pantheon of gods during preproduction.

 

well, that explains the following:

 

"Loved the richness of the world and the hints I got about the story. "

 

uh, yeah, well, am sure if you contributed to world richness you will see such in every painting hanging in the local inn, but so far we have gotten very little from which we can point to world depth. honestly, we wanted to kill sid halfway through his spiel. 

 

am kindia disagreeing with his impression o' the mouse-over of logs too. the logs themselves is o' so brief and seeming leaving information out that we feel like the mouse-over is telling us half of the relevant info.  as stated elsewhere, we got 0 idea how interrupts figure in, and yet two abilities is focused 'pon creating and resisting interrupts. combat logs, in general, is very disappointing and we would wish for an option by which we could save more detailed text logs in a PoE file for later perusal.

 

complete disagree regarding xp for combat. combat xp is an anachronism leftover from crpgs o' the past.... which is kinda ironic. hell, d&d pnp didn't actual award any xp during adventures-- were s'posed to be awarded after completion o' an adventure. clearly the old pnp approach wouldn't work in a crpg lasting tens o' hours and s'posed awarding 10 to a dozen levels, but combat kills xp is bad design and leading to difficulty in balancing. our problem with PoE xp awards is that they don't work. if you can't get combat xp and quest xp is a crap shoot even if you load from main screen, then something is serious freaking wrong. combat xp wouldbe better than no xp.

 

unlike george, we got very good use from aoe Offensive spells, but we couldn't be slap-happy and stoopid 'bout using 'em. dunno, maybe george never played the d&d crpgs with friendly-fire active. 

 

am agreeing with george that inventory seems limited, but we haven't quite figured out stash yet and sometimes our inventory is bugged regardless... we actual have one or two less inventory slots and so gear disappears? 

 

we don't mind the micromanagement o' combat, and as we has noted elsewhere, starting at level five means we gets thrown into the deeper end o' the pool to try and start learning, but we will agree that bugginess o' combat is frustrating-- is frustrating to point that playing demo frequent feels like work rather than fun. that is bad for a game. 

 

in general, we think we agree and disagree with george in equal measure. is a good thing actually. is good to see different perspectives.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 26, 2014 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

+"but combat kills xp is bad design and leading to difficulty in balancing. "

 

No, it doesn't. BG series is very balanced xp wise. And, combat kills xp wise has worked for DND (and others) for decades and for good reasons. Balance has NOTHINg to do with xp. XP isn't even about 'balance'. Whether xp is put in via combat or via quest completion or via whatever method, balance is achieved through other mehods.

 

but, again, what are the goals of xp? Why was it used in DnD and other games? Answer that fully and you know why XP system is subpar (thus far, might work in full game) in PE ebat but works well in DOS and SRR? Hmmm...

[Elerond]

+"but combat kills xp is bad design and leading to difficulty in balancing. "

 

No, it doesn't. BG series is very balanced xp wise. And, combat kills xp wise has worked for DND (and others) for decades and for good reasons. Balance has NOTHINg to do with xp. XP isn't even about 'balance'. Whether xp is put in via combat or via quest completion or via whatever method, balance is achieved through other mehods.

 

but, again, what are the goals of xp? Why was it used in DnD and other games? Answer that fully and you know why XP system is subpar (thus far, might work in full game) in PE ebat but works well in DOS and SRR? Hmmm...

 

You could farm your characters to level cap in couple hours in BG by killing respawning high xp monsters like sirens for example. 

[Gromnir]

*sigh*

 

need we have any further proof that combat xp sux than for vol to be in favor o' it? as has been stated hundreds o' times, this same fight has raged with largely the same developers since approx 2002 when black isle were working on bg3 and then fo3. black isle developers went over all the positives and negatives o' quest/task xp awards and soundly beat the ad hoc proponents into utter stoopid submission. we had thought that the ground had been made forever infertile with the blood spilled by the idiotic protests o' the ad hoc proponents, but it seems that at least some o' you is too stubborn to realize that you is well and fully vanquished. 

 

quest is simple, elegant and does not require Any balancing to be providing same reward to all players regardless o' play style. there is no balancing algorithm that can possibly compete with the simplicity o' completely avoiding the need to balance. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 26, 2014 by Gromnir

[Monte Carlo]

I'm biding my time before posting full feedback, but the combat for me is virtually unplayable because of the speed and confusion of encounters. I don't like the inventory system and the no-XP thing will always be a major no-no for me.

 

I'm not finding it too buggy, funnily enough, and I like the overall look of the game.

 

But FFS slow down that combat.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Combat is like phase beasts dog-piling at the moment, with ranged casters dumping all horrors on Eora on them - half of which don't even affect the beasts in the pile, regardless of it being fire or status effects - it's as if the game itself has a hard time keeping track of the messy melee.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

GZiets

 

 

Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat. While this does put more emphasis on solving quests, the lack of rewards for killing creatures makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game) as much as I can.

 

 

Oh, one of my all-time favourite game devs is giving his feedback... And I love all of it, I must... *swoon*

[Volourn]

"You could farm your characters to level cap in couple hours in BG by killing respawning high xp monsters like sirens for example. "

 

And, sirens aren't easy at low levels nor woudl you know where to 'farm' them when you legit play through first time? Vast majority of people don't play games multiple time s- heck most don't play more than a few hours. And, those who do likely enjoy the game enoguh to replay a second tiem for good reason. And, even at max  level, BG enocunetrs could be tricky if unprepared or fought foolishly so 'reaching' the level cap hurts nobody. Certainlyu doesn't hurt 'balance'. And, fi someone wants to level up 'farming' sirens before hitting to the first mine good on them. Different playthrough styles is GOOD. Not having to play the game linearly is GOOD.

 

 

"need we have any further proof that combat xp sux than for vol to be in favor o' it?"

 

I'm in favor of an xp system that works, makes sense, and is logical. Did you know that SRR is 'mission only xp system' and I praised it twice in this thread? The main problem with PE's xp system is not that it isn't 'non combat xp' is that it's just plain subpar and fails to do what xp is supposed to. And, no, xp  is not about 'balance' or making it 'easy' on the 'devs' or whatever nonsense that failed company BIS wanted to do with their their failed BG3 and their failed FO3.

 

I want PE to be as good as it can be, and xp system is not gonna help it. The different inn rooms, though? AWESOME.

[Gromnir]

quest/task makes perfect sense, and it is simple and unbreakable. regardless o' how you accomplish a goal, no matter how creative or insanely stoopid is your approach, regardless o' whether you go sneaky, diplomatic, fighty or bug exploitative, you will get same xp award for accomplishing a goal.  you want the gold-star-on-your-homework feeling from seeing 50 xp awarded for killing a kobold or spider? well, get over it. Gromnir concedes that it is indeed possible that there is a hypothetical perfect balancing formula whereby all players coulds get the right and just xp regardless o' play style, but it would be a complex system and would take considerable effort to implement. quest/task complete ignores the conundrum o' perfect balancing by functional ignoring the problem altogether... and if vol don't get his gold star, so much the better.

 

quest is simple, elegant, and unbreakable... as long as it isn't bugged into absence such as in the PoE beta.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

I'm sure we could all go round again discussing the merits of quest-versus combat-based XP, I think we've all dug entrenched positions on it.

 

I just thought what was mooted, i.e. predominantly quest-based with a nod to combat (modest xp rewards) suited everyone. But that rug got pulled. I missed the announcement myself, which suggests Sawyer didn't make one.

 

As for me, I hate quest-based only, and George makes a valid point. Combat is still a key focus of this game - why are you punished for it?

[Mayama]

As for me, I hate quest-based only, and George makes a valid point. Combat is still a key focus of this game - why are you punished for it?

I dont take a side here but you can afaik solve all the quests in the beta without a single fight beside trash monsters and it looks like they overpopulated the are with trash anyway.

[Zed]

ziets knows what's best

[Volourn]

Because it makes sense to build your game around combat and then tell your players that the combat sucks so you are best to avoid it by not actually rewarding them for it even though you make it so encounetrs are right in their path so they have no choice to fight. L0L

 

 

P.S. I don't think the combat will suck (in fact, I think it'll be fun in the end) but that's how this design decision comes across. Certainly no SRR.

[Mayama]

Because it makes sense to build your game around combat and then tell your players that the combat sucks so you are best to avoid it by not actually rewarding them for it even though you make it so encounetrs are right in their path so they have no choice to fight. L0L

 

 

P.S. I don't think the combat will suck (in fact, I think it'll be fun in the end) but that's how this design decision comes across. Certainly no SRR.

As I posted you can solve any quest without fighting and it seems like the wilderness is overpopulated with trash mobs anyway. Fighting is a decision not a must.

[Gromnir]

I'm sure we could all go round again discussing the merits of quest-versus combat-based XP, I think we've all dug entrenched positions on it.

 

I just thought what was mooted, i.e. predominantly quest-based with a nod to combat (modest xp rewards) suited everyone. But that rug got pulled. I missed the announcement myself, which suggests Sawyer didn't make one.

 

As for me, I hate quest-based only, and George makes a valid point. Combat is still a key focus of this game - why are you punished for it?

you ain't punished.  you get same xp as those who sneak past combats even if you do get 1007 drops n' such that sneaky folks don't get.

 

regardless, this is a dead issue. serious, is same argument we has been having with same developers since 2002. black isle/obsidian declared victory and planted their flag in the moldering corpse o' ad hoc over a decade ago and the freaking broken and battered remains o' the vanquished keeps twitching and threatening to rise zombie-like every time Gromnir looks away for even five minutes. is disconcerting. perhaps feargus should call in a witch doctor or an exorcist or somesuch and finally give this dead body o' a subject its final rest. 

 

HA!Good Fun!

[Volourn]

L0L

 

That doesn't change the fact that SRR has a better xp system than PE does.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

ziets knows what's best

ziets didn't know how to end motb well, but that is another issue entirely. am not thinking any single developer gots an infallible crpg vision... 'least we ain't never seen such. we like some ziets and we dislike other o' his work. is no surprise that we thinks he is 'bout half right with his observations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[IndiraLightfoot]

Gromnir: That would be a cool side quest in PoE. You get to search out and destroy the no-kill-xp zombie lord Hollow Holgar and his brothers-in-arms: Killjoy, Desiré and Digger.

[Mayama]

Gromnir: That would be a cool side quest in PoE. You get to search out and destroy the no-kill-xp zombie lord Hollow Holgar and his brothers-in-arms: Killjoy, Desiré and Digger.

What about saving the last kill-xp dragon from a horde of greedy adventures?

[Gromnir]

L0L

 

That doesn't change the fact that SRR has a better xp system than PE does.

the current PoE system is borked. there is literal hundreds o' games better than PoE in its current state. nevertheless, your observation is pointless and misguided. in any event, we should all thank God that vol approval does not = better.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

Gromnir: That would be a cool side quest in PoE. You get to search out and destroy the no-kill-xp zombie lord Hollow Holgar and his brothers-in-arms: Killjoy, Desiré and Digger.

that would work for Gromnir, but josh doesn't approve o' meta-humor.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sammael]

Grommy, MC, since I don't care one way or the other about combat XP, I can be easily swayed into either camp with an appropriate bribe. Note to Grommy: soul is not acceptable as a bribe, you're a lawyer so we have you already.