Backer beta: Developer Impressions

[Gromnir]

What can I say, sometimes messy is just more fun.

indeed. unfortunately, obisidan is making a game for everybody who will play PoE. we can luck into a mess and find that the experience were exhilarating. we got a story about halloween in isla vista back in 1992... but that is another story for another time... and a whole different kinda unexpected mess.  a PoE player with messed up character development choices is a whole different issue. poor schmuck thought that playing stealthy would be fun too... seeing as how obsidian has said many times that there won't be bad builds 'n all. and heck, maybe it were fun, right up until he realized he were getting 1/2 the xp o' the slaughterhouse player. that is the kinda mess quest xp avoids.

 

we like Jackson Pollock, but as a game designer, am thinking that mess is not a viable mechanical or aesthetic choice. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Yonjuro]

 

Now that you mention it , I do feel that seeing the XP values pop up after kills in the Infinity Engine games, served as performance feedback in a way. Not just in a "And another one bites the dust, good job, here have a gold star!" kind of way, but slightly more meaningfully ....

 

 

 This is a very good argument (which is being drowned in a sea of non-arguments that, when you cut them to the bone, sound like - Kill XP good! OE bad! Ugh!). Thanks for adding some signal instead of more noise.

 

 If you got a combat log one-liner giving you a summary of what your character just learned about the creature, would that help? (Essentially, the same information that you get from the XP number.)

[ManifestedISO]

Weird, just last month I compared Pollock and Picasso to Obsidian and Bio, right or wrong, with no text to back it up, however. Should do that. 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66436-bittersweet-eternity-an-open-letter-addressed-to-obsidian-entertainment/page-8?do=findComment&comment=1465137

[Gromnir]

Weird, just last month I compared Pollock and Picasso to Obsidian and Bio, right or wrong, with no text to back it up, however. Should do that. 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66436-bittersweet-eternity-an-open-letter-addressed-to-obsidian-entertainment/page-8?do=findComment&comment=1465137

is admittedly a far more compelling debate subject than quest xp v. ad hoc. heck, it may even be more relevant.

 

...

 

sadly, 'cause this may diminish us in the eyes o' some, we is more o' a picasso aficionado. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

sadly, 'cause this may diminish us in the eyes o' some, 

HA! Good Fun!

That's not possible.

 

You can't divide by zero. lol

Edited August 28, 2014 by Stun

[GreyFox]

 

What can I say, sometimes messy is just more fun.

indeed. unfortunately, obisidan is making a game for everybody who will play PoE. we can luck into a mess and find that the experience were exhilarating. we got a story about halloween in isla vista back in 1992... but that is another story for another time... and a whole different kinda unexpected mess.  a PoE player with messed up character development choices is a whole different issue. poor schmuck thought that playing stealthy would be fun too... seeing as how obsidian has said many times that there won't be bad builds 'n all. and heck, maybe it were fun, right up until he realized he were getting 1/2 the xp o' the slaughterhouse player. that is the kinda mess quest xp avoids.

 

we like Jackson Pollock, but as a game designer, am thinking that mess is not a viable mechanical or aesthetic choice. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

First of all there will be bad builds and if they say there won't be then they are stretching what objectively bad means razor thin. I'm not even sure that's a good goal to have anyway if a player just herp-a-derpaly put points into sh*t without thinking about it or paying attention maybe it SHOULD be bad.

And whose to say he won't think it's bad even if it's "good" but not what he intended?

 

Also how would something all of the sudden stop being fun because you realized someone else had more experience points than your digital character did in a SP game when you were previously having a blast?

 

I can't say I've ever ceased having fun when I learned that someone somewhere else in his own SP game was doing something in a different way than I was...once again seems like a personal problem to me.

 

Now the 'pro quest XP' crowd is getting ludicrous and I don't even really care which way we get experience.

Basically it's only Quest XP because time/budget/manning issues and if they weren't limited by those it'd be XP for most actions that involve combat/skills/problem solving.

Edited August 28, 2014 by GreyFox

[Leferd]

This is the best thread ever. From Ziets to XP, to Jackson Pollock reference and the inevitable Bio-Picasso comparisons. Lolz.

[Gromnir]

 

sadly, 'cause this may diminish us in the eyes o' some, 

HA! Good Fun!

That's not possible.

 

You can't divide by zero. lol

 

*pats stun on head*

 

its ok, mean old Gromnir won't hurt you. we were chastised by mods so now you gets the special kid treatment.  have a cookie and some juice and am sure everything will seem better in the morning.

 

we will note that going this route does threaten thread lockage, so try and say something relevant.

 

zeits worked on troika vampire game, yes? weren't that quest xp? am not recalling. guess he couldn't even convince the folks at troika o' his views on the subject.  'course, we didn't play the vampire game, so perhaps we is wrong that it used quest xp. 

 

"Also how would something all of the sudden stop being fun because you realized someone else had more experience points than your digital character did in a SP game when you were previously having a blast?"

 

well, that is obvious. if we realize that we is gonna be handicapping our player by continuing to use stealth, we will likely reduce our reliance on stealth. part of fun o' the game for us is leveling and getting new skills and abilities. force us to chose between a playstyle we prefer and voluntary gimpage is wholly unnecessary IF we use quest xp. problem solved. 

 

think us a philistine for wanting good xp payoff and fun playstyle?  *shrug* is not a problem with quest xp. 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Leferd]

I think you may be confusing Ziets with Brian Mitsoda. Mitsoda was the designer on VtM:B.

 

VtM:B was good and it had Quest based XP. Combat was terrible though.

 

Mitsoda's Haunted Hotel was singularly my favorite video game level of all time. Freaked the hell out of me. So major props for that.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Leferd

[Gromnir]

I think you may be confusing Ziets with Brian Mitsoda. Mitsoda was the designer on VtM:B.

 

VtM:B was good and it had Quest based XP. Combat was terrible, Mitsoda's Haunted Hotel was singularly my favorite video game level of all time. Freaked the hell out of me.

ah, our bad. ziets gets fanfare around here and we honestly don't know much o' him other than motb... which we thought were hit and miss.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps  am thinking we keep spelling his name incorrect too. bad on us for that at least.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Stun]

I can't say I've ever ceased having fun when I learned that someone somewhere else in his own game was doing something in a different way than I was...once again seems like a personal problem to me.

In fact, I find that the opposite phenomenon happens for me. When I play a certain way, or make a certain choice in gameplay, then later discover that a different playstyle/choice would have yielded more rewards/XP, My opinion of the game rises. This is what replayability is ALL about.

 

But who are we kidding? This isn't about "personal". It's about the opposite of personal. These people want to make sure the rest of us are policed and controlled in our own single player game - these people want to rest easy knowing that that If they got 2000 XP for doing things their way, that no one else should be allowed to get 2001+ XP for doing things another way.

 

YES, Gromnir, I Killed Drizzt and his party in BG2 for no reason but to get the XP for the kills (and to prevent him from stealing XP from me in Bodhi's dungeon later). And it was FUN. Do I care that the developers meant for me to let him live for 'story' or 'quest' reasons? NO, Not at all. Would I have cared if letting him live had actually resulted in a larger XP reward? NOPE. Is BG2 a lesser game because It lets you Kill stuff for XP? NO It ISN'T. It's a Better game for it.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Stun

[Marceror]

Oh. My. Word. Please tell me you spared Guenhwyvar at least!

[Gromnir]

hey, good for you all, but developers has actual observed the behavior o' players and they note that Gromnir's behavior is common. people will go back and get the XP win option if there is such an option.

 

*shrug*

 

doesn't matter though, does it?  quest xp complete negates the issue entirely. regardless o' playstyle, we get same xp. that realization will sink in eventually.

...

 

may take a little longer to realize that even nietzsche wouldn't weep for this horse. you folks has beat the corpse into a pulpy mass in spite o' fact that multiple developers has given rationales for the superiority o' quest, including cain and sawyer. you also ignore that as this game is in beta, so the issue is no longer relevant for this game. and most important, you continue to ignore the challenge posed:

 

"provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player."

 

manage to come up with a better mousetrap and no doubt obsidian will applaud your efforts.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Stun]

Oh. My. Word. Please tell me you spared Guenhwyvar at least!

Sorry. I didn't have a choice. I tried ignoring him, but when I looked down and realized he was well on his way to murdering my cleric, I had to finger-of-death the poor beast. Edited August 28, 2014 by Stun

[Zansatsu]

hey, good for you all, but developers has actual observed the behavior o' players and they note that Gromnir's behavior is common. people will go back and get the XP win option if there is such an option.

 

*shrug*

 

doesn't matter though, does it?  quest xp complete negates the issue entirely. regardless o' playstyle, we get same xp. that realization will sink in eventually.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

We all understand the concept. Nobody is unaware of the concept. We got it, you like the concept. No matter what you do, or how you play, everybody is the same. We are all the same. Huzzah! Sameness. The more ingenious you are when tackling the problem is rewarded exactly the same as a derp derp sword jockey. Nothing like the smell of sameness in the morning.

[Marceror]

 

Oh. My. Word. Please tell me you spared Guenhwyvar at least!

Sorry. I didn't have a choice. I tried ignoring him, but when I looked down and realized it was well on its way to murdering my cleric, I had to finger-of-death the poor beast.

 

[Stun]

hey, good for you all, but developers has actual observed the behavior o' players and they note that Gromnir's behavior is common. people will go back and get the XP win option if there is such an option.

That's not the reason why they eliminated Kill XP. So why bring it up?

 

This game has a level cap. Which means double-dipping, kill grinding, and any other type of XP mining will only ever work until it can't anymore. And then after that everything will be equal for everyone regardless of how they got to the cap.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Stun

[Gromnir]

 

hey, good for you all, but developers has actual observed the behavior o' players and they note that Gromnir's behavior is common. people will go back and get the XP win option if there is such an option.

That's not the reason why they eliminated Kill XP. So why bring it up?

 

This game has a level cap. Which means double-dipping the XP rewards will only ever work until it can't anymore. And then after that everything will be equal for everyone regardless of how they got to the cap.

 

sure it is part o' the reason. you haven't been paying attention. when developers speak o' how players will exploit or game the xp system, Gromnir example is exactly what they is talking about.

 

this is getting bizarre...

 

 

"We all understand the concept. Nobody is unaware of the concept. We got it, you like the concept. No matter what you do, or how you play, everybody is the same. We are all the same. Huzzah! Sameness. The more ingenious you are when tackling the problem is rewarded exactly the same as a derp derp sword jockey. Nothing like the smell of sameness in the morning."

 

yes. congrats. you see wrongness with a Role Play Game that makes alternative Role Play Choices equally viable?  we hope not. smell o' sameness o' reward in a role-play game that we might wanna actual replay again at some point in the future is a Good thing, not something worthy o' derision and scorn.

 

...

 

somebody cue the outer limits theme music, please.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

​ps 'cause we know how unobservant stun may be, am not saying the only reason for use of quest xp is to prevent exploitation or gaming of xp system, but it is a factor that has been commented 'pon by developers.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Zansatsu]

 

 

hey, good for you all, but developers has actual observed the behavior o' players and they note that Gromnir's behavior is common. people will go back and get the XP win option if there is such an option.

That's not the reason why they eliminated Kill XP. So why bring it up?

 

This game has a level cap. Which means double-dipping the XP rewards will only ever work until it can't anymore. And then after that everything will be equal for everyone regardless of how they got to the cap.

 

sure it is part o' the reason. you haven't been paying attention. when developers speak o' how players will exploit or game the xp system, Gromnir example is exactly what they is talking about.

 

this is getting bizarre...

 

 

"We all understand the concept. Nobody is unaware of the concept. We got it, you like the concept. No matter what you do, or how you play, everybody is the same. We are all the same. Huzzah! Sameness. The more ingenious you are when tackling the problem is rewarded exactly the same as a derp derp sword jockey. Nothing like the smell of sameness in the morning."

 

yes. congrats. you see wrongness with a Role Play Game that makes alternative Role Play Choices equally viable?  we hope not. smell o' sameness o' reward in a role-play game that we might wanna actual replay again at some point in the future is a Good thing, not something worthy o' derision and scorn.

 

...

 

somebody cue the outer limits theme music, please.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

*sigh* no Gromnir I don't see wrongness.  As I've said many times before this isn't about wrongness. It's about preference. I don't have a problem with the fact that others might find "better ways" of lvling in a game that is single player, completely winnable no matter how you choice to play, and has a lvl cap. I'm not shamed by my choices, driven to bouts of savage murdering because the option is out there, or really influenced in any way by how others choose to play there single player game that impacts me in no way.  

[GreyFox]

hey, good for you all, but developers has actual observed the behavior o' players and they note that Gromnir's behavior is common. people will go back and get the XP win option if there is such an option.

 

*shrug*

 

doesn't matter though, does it?  quest xp complete negates the issue entirely. regardless o' playstyle, we get same xp. that realization will sink in eventually.

...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It actually doesn't negate any issues because if that quest giver has a sword or chest in his room and you didn't combat him for the XP that type of player would just murder him for his sword or his chest even if they resolved it peacefully.

 

There are numerous ways that the same exact type of behavior that this is supposed to "fix" will arise in PE. Not to mention the fact that you keep calling it an issue...its not really a problem at all and certainly not one that's been "fixed".

 

*Complete objective for not killing Xmonster and receive XP* *Go back and kill Xmonster because it has crafting materials or is guarding or roaming near herbs*

 

DERP

 

The only issue addressed here is Obsidian not wanting to do nor having the time(i guess) to add a better/more in-depth XP system.

 

 

BG(assume kill only XP items as rewards)

 

Resolve Quest Peacefully get sword as reward then kill quest giver for XP.

 

PE(assume quest XP items as kill rewards)

Resolve Quest Peacefully get XP as reward then kill quest giver for sword.

 

Issue totally solved!

[Gromnir]

...

 

"The only issue addressed here is Obsidian not wanting to do nor having the time(i guess) to add a better/more in-depth XP system."

 

a better system than one that guarantees that regardless o' how a player chooses to resolve a quest or task, they will all be afforded the same xp, thus encouraging no single playstyle over another?

 

"provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player."

 

show us.

 

sorry, you folks is not making sense.

 

you may wish to believe that xp systems that provide superior xp rewards for particular actions will have negligible impact on the choices players make in character development and in game, but the developers who actually gets to witness qa results and feedback from many gameplay experiences disagree with you. 

 

but again, the horse is dead. am only curious what is preventing some small group o' very sincere but misguided folks from failing to recognize what seems so obvious to folks such as Gromnir... and the obsidian developers... and the troika developers such as cain.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Zansatsu]

...

 

"The only issue addressed here is Obsidian not wanting to do nor having the time(i guess) to add a better/more in-depth XP system."

 

a better system than one that guarantees that regardless o' how a player chooses to resolve a quest or task, they will all be afforded the same xp, thus encouraging no single playstyle over another?

 

"provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player."

 

show us.

 

sorry, you folks is not making sense.

 

you may wish to believe that xp systems that provide superior xp rewards for particular actions will have negligible impact on the choices players make in character development and in game, but the developers who actually gets to witness qa results and feedback from many gameplay experiences disagree with you. 

 

but again, the horse is dead. am only curious what is preventing some small group o' very sincere but misguided folks from failing to recognize what seems so obvious to folks such as Gromnir... and the obsidian developers... and the troika developers such as cain.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

These developers disagree with us. Not all developers disagree with us. Just wanted to point that out. Obsidian isn't the only RPG maker in town. 

As per beating a dead horse, well I'm up all night anyway for work so meh this passes the time and is enjoyable.

[GreyFox]

...

 

"The only issue addressed here is Obsidian not wanting to do nor having the time(i guess) to add a better/more in-depth XP system."

 

a better system than one that guarantees that regardless o' how a player chooses to resolve a quest or task, they will all be afforded the same xp, thus encouraging no single playstyle over another?

 

"provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player."

 

show us.

 

sorry, you folks is not making sense.

 

you may wish to believe that xp systems that provide superior xp rewards for particular actions will have negligible impact on the choices players make in character development and in game, but the developers who actually gets to witness qa results and feedback from many gameplay experiences disagree with you. 

 

but again, the horse is dead. am only curious what is preventing some small group o' very sincere but misguided folks from failing to recognize what seems so obvious to folks such as Gromnir... and the obsidian developers... and the troika developers such as cain.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

It's more about the majority and the majority of the game is combat and is featured as such. https://eternity.obsidian.net/game

 

So yes, the play-style that is encouraged is combat, clearly over other play-styles...actually it's "intense combat and IWD like dungeon diving."

 

https://eternity.obsidian.net/game

 

There seems to be a severe lack of "charismatically navigate your way through trees upon trees of dialogue to outwit your foes and complete your quests" there on the about the game page.

 

Not all quests are solved equally and who the hell says they should be rewarded equally? As is you'll be missing out on stuff if you don't do combat or play a pacifist....soooo....not equal....say it with me....

 

And it's not a small group as you say...you are actually in the minority here as are the people on this site in general....

 

 

 "you may wish to believe that xp systems that provide superior xp rewards for particular actions will have negligible impact on the choices players make in character development and in game, but the developers who actually gets to witness qa results and feedback from many gameplay experiences disagree with you.      "

 

And Obsidian will have other (often bigger/more successful) developers disagree with them....your point?

Edited August 28, 2014 by GreyFox

[Gromnir]

 

These developers disagree with us. Not all developers disagree with us. 

 

that is a fair point. sadly for you, the folks working on the game is cain and sawyer and the obsinaties,

 

nevertheless, am thinking you would get more mileage if you could, "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player."  otherwise all you got is a gut feeling that runs contrary to the opinions o' the folks actual working on PoE. you can see how such a position would not be particular compelling, yes? 

 

but flog away, is your time and the horse is dead, so he/she won't care.

 

to greyfox:

 

the developers is very much aware that combat will represent the majority of gameplay, which is precisely why an xp mechanic that does not favor combat is invaluable in a ROLE-PLAY game that seeks to make all builds equal viable.

 

...

 

where is the disconnect?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Gromnir

[Cantousent]

I'm glad Gromnir is holding the fort for quest only XP.  Mostly I'm just here to add one more voice to his position.

 

I've been following this thread and a couple others dealing with combat XP.  Since almost all arguments have already come out, take my comments that duplicate other posts simply as agreement.  There are too many posts and threads to keep track of them all.

 

First of all, I think the folks who cite more recent observation to claim that combat XP is great are making after the fact arguments.  DnD had combat experience.  It's been a staple for years, but that exact moment where one designer decided to impart XP for random killing created a prejudice that it was natural.  Since that's been the norm for so long, it's hard to take arguments seriously that depend on direct observation about a current opinion that disregard habituation.  On the other hand, I am sympathetic to folks who just love combat XP.  I merely disagree with them that it's better.

 

Second, XP is not 'first among equals' in the court of game rewards.  It is king of the game reward court.  I have long been an advocate of story based rewards, but I would never claim that story based rewards rise to the level of XP.  Loot, achievements, titles, and the like are simply inferior to XP rewards.  That isn't to say that some people might not prefer some of these rewards at any particular time, and perhaps have an inclination to seek any other specific rewards at various times, but XP is pervasive and has the single largest impact on gameplay.  Granting XP as positive feedback trains the player to engage in that activity.  So, having painted the process into a corner by fixating players on combat, developers were forced to face angry players of other inclinations by rewarding an increasingly large number of things, such as stealth, lockpicking, using attributes in dialogue, exploration, etc.  Most of those rewards fall far short in the long run compared to combat, however.  Unless you've created a lockpicking RPG, in which lock are ubiquitous and in need of picking, you simply won't have any other incidental positive feedback that even comes close to the sheer number of potential slaughter victims who provide fodder for XP.

 

Anyhow, like I said, I'm mostly just here to add one more voice to folks who prefer the current philosophy behind quest only XP.