Drama in the indy gaming biz ?

[Chaz]

 

 

It does make sense that these, lets face it, untalented and unscrupulous  people would try and leech onto one of the largest, growing industries in the modern world. In print media, television and film they'd be eaten up and spat out by the professionals, who maintain somewhat of a stranglehold. However with the relative newness of this medium, and the lack of representation, responsibility and oversight that gamers and developers have, it must seem like an open biscuit jar.

 

 

Now let's just hope that your favorite Game Dev Studio (like Obsidian or InXile) is not beign adviced by the lunatics at Silverstring media or someone like them.

 

 

I doubt old industry veterans like Mr Urquhart or Fargo would be taken in by these frauds, it would more likely be a younger less sceptical demographic who fall for such chicanery.

 

 

I dont want to sound paranoid, but I've heard guys like Richard Garriot and Chris Avellone complaining that there are too many white people in their games and that they should be more inclusive yada yada yada.

 

I completely disagree but it's not that bad if they want to do that of their on volition, what bothers me in when devs and artists are harrassed, pressured and strong armed into doing this things things by SJW, feminists and the nutjobs at Gaming Media, like what happened with Divinity Original Sin

Edited September 1, 2014 by Chaz

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Yes the case does seem to be forming that this is their endgoal Messr's Chaz and Fighter, especially with their current vocation as Game Journalists being so undermined and devalued at the moment, and this may have been their goal for some time. I'm just naturally sceptical when it comes to conspiracy theories however.

 

Certainly it does not herald a bright future if this succeeds, with corrupt, unethical, liars paid to enforce a code of conduct upon artistic expression, Mary Whitehouse obviously springs to mind, though these people are far less palatable or moral.

 

Meh, it's not like there's a huge emphasis on artistic expression in gaming right now.

 

Personally, I see no difference between freedom of artistic expression being curtailed in the name of profit by risk-averse publishers and what you propose these people are getting up to.

 

Edit:

 

Re: link, words can't express the pain and outrage I feel at this gross violation of artists' rights to draw boobplate.

Edited September 1, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Nonek]

 

 

I doubt old industry veterans like Mr Urquhart or Fargo would be taken in by these frauds, it would more likely be a younger less sceptical demographic who fall for such chicanery.

 

 

I dont want to sound paranoid, but I've heard guys like Richard Garriot and Chris Avellone complaining that there are too many white people in their games and that they should be more inclusive yada yada yada.

 

I completely disagree but it's not that bad if they want to do that of their on volition, what bothers me in when devs and artists are harrassed, pressured and strong armed into doing this things things by SJW, feminists and the nutjobs at Gaming Media, like what happened with Divinity Original Sin

 

 

What Sven ought to have done there is simply ask the backers with a public poll, and let democracy decide, he'd have still faced attack from these fanatics but he would be in the right.

 

 

Yes the case does seem to be forming that this is their endgoal Messr's Chaz and Fighter, especially with their current vocation as Game Journalists being so undermined and devalued at the moment, and this may have been their goal for some time. I'm just naturally sceptical when it comes to conspiracy theories however.

 

Certainly it does not herald a bright future if this succeeds, with corrupt, unethical, liars paid to enforce a code of conduct upon artistic expression, Mary Whitehouse obviously springs to mind, though these people are far less palatable or moral.

 

Meh, it's not like there's a huge emphasis on artistic expression in gaming right now.

 

Personally, I see no difference between freedom of artistic expression being curtailed in the name of profit by risk-averse publishers and what you propose these people are getting up to.

 

 

I disagree, yes there are many creatively bankrupt publishers twisting the arms of developers out there, but there are advances made and innovations tried with even the most mundane of games. The surprising choice and consequence of Black Ops 2, the startlingly original and yet simple use of co-op madness in Dead Space 3, the pleasing difficulty and narrative subtlety of the Souls series, the branching narrative of the Witcher 2 etcetera.

 

If controlled by these untalented and unimaginative people, who want blatant preaching and obvious examples in every game, as well as seemingly spitting upon any form of challenge or fun, we would be mostly getting non games. Graphical picture books like Dear Esther and Gone Home. I would be utterly against that personally, these are not to my liking at all, i'm too old to be preached at by wet behind the ears children.

 

Edit: Also their central premise is simply wrong, sexism, racism and violence in games does not cause copycat behaviour in the real world, mankind can and does easily tell reality from the simulated, it's is one of our most basic senses. There is no causal link between such things and there never will be, violence, racism and sexism fall steadily year after year.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Nonek

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I disagree, yes there are many creatively bankrupt publishers twisting the arms of developers out there, but there are advances made and innovations tried with even the most mundane of games. The surprising choice and consequence of Black Ops 2, the startlingly original and yet simple use of co-op madness in Dead Space 3, the pleasing difficulty and narrative subtlety of the Souls series, the branching narrative of the Witcher 2 etcetera.

 

If controlled by these untalented and unimaginative people, who want blatant preaching and obvious examples in every game, as well as seemingly spitting upon any form of challenge or fun, we would be mostly getting non games. Graphical picture books like Dear Esther and Gone Home. I would be utterly against that personally, these are not to my liking at all.

 

C'mon, dude, Dear Esther was way more innovative than any of the more commercial games you mentioned. Also, "blatant preaching and obvious examples" it contained not.

 

(It was also kind of a horrible game, but creative bankruptcy and enforced PCness are not accusations that could be levied against it.)

[Nonek]

 

I disagree, yes there are many creatively bankrupt publishers twisting the arms of developers out there, but there are advances made and innovations tried with even the most mundane of games. The surprising choice and consequence of Black Ops 2, the startlingly original and yet simple use of co-op madness in Dead Space 3, the pleasing difficulty and narrative subtlety of the Souls series, the branching narrative of the Witcher 2 etcetera.

 

If controlled by these untalented and unimaginative people, who want blatant preaching and obvious examples in every game, as well as seemingly spitting upon any form of challenge or fun, we would be mostly getting non games. Graphical picture books like Dear Esther and Gone Home. I would be utterly against that personally, these are not to my liking at all.

 

C'mon, dude, Dear Esther was way more innovative than any of the more commercial games you mentioned. Also, "blatant preaching and obvious examples" it contained not.

 

(It was also kind of a horrible game, but creative bankruptcy and enforced PCness are not accusations that could be levied against it.)

 

 

I'm sorry but i'm not aware that walking around and solving basic puzzles is particularly innovative, I was doing that in games twenty plus years ago. With the games I listed you get much more, this is simply an objective fact. If games followed Dear Esthers path we would be removing what little content is left in them.

 

I agree that Dear Esther did not suffer from political correctness, but it would almost certainly have been forced to if Silverstring media and their consultants were mandating content. That is their avowed aim, to push their currently fashionable agenda.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I disliked Dear Esther because it felt like I was being led around and told a story rather than actively participating in one, which is the appeal of videogames for me. I much prefer Obsidian's approach in FONV.

[Fighter]

Gone Home... I don't even know how this got so many accolades. The revolutionary environmental storytelling that everyone raves about is not revolutionary at all, many games have used those tools. The main story is told through journal entries, a widely used method. The story itself is a complete cliché. I don't get what people see there. There are a few puzzles, barely worth a mention. 

 

Dear Esther is a pain to "play".

[Orogun01]

Gone Home... I don't even know how this got so many accolades. The revolutionary environmental storytelling that everyone raves about is not revolutionary at all, many games have used those tools. The main story is told through journal entries, a widely used method. The story itself is a complete cliché. I don't get what people see there. There are a few puzzles, barely worth a mention. 

 

Dear Esther is a pain to "play".

Considering that it was made by ex Irrational Games members where that kind of storytelling is hallmark, I can see how anyone thought it was revolutionary. I imagine that having close ties to the developer might help.

[Chaz]

 

Re: link, words can't express the pain and outrage I feel at this gross violation of artists' rights to draw boobplate.

 

 

 

Beign afraid to lose your job is a problem, but your comment doesn't seem very empathetic to begin with so I guess you don't give a damn.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Chaz

[BruceVC]

So does anybody else think that these zealots are trying to enforce a politically correct creative checklist for games, with jobs built in for "consultants" (i.e. themselves) and their agendas, in other words to try and censor and control any kind of artistic output according to their own currently fashionable sensibilities?

 

 

 

So does anybody else think that these zealots are trying to enforce a politically correct creative checklist for games, with jobs built in for "consultants" (i.e. themselves) and their agendas, in other words to try and censor and control any kind of artistic output according to their own currently fashionable sensibilities?

 

Did you see my post? they coordinated the 10 articles saying gamers are dead. And this is not new, this has been happening for years. When the first tropes vs women came out, idiots like me complained about it but we don't have a big voice, the media praised her (since now it turns out they are associated with her) and the gaming personalities either praised her or ingored her and remained silent.

 

Doesn't it seem weird that some personalities that are very vocal (like totalbiscuit or angryjoe) never really talked about it, aside from maybe a small comment here or there? The ones that analyzed and critiqued her videos were people that had NOTHING to do with gaming, like Amazing Atheist (a guy that talks about atheism and other things) and Thunderf00t (a guy that does experiments and debunks creationists) sure those guys are gamers but they were nowhere near close to the "gaming scene"

 

These people, that talk... more like demand "equality"  "diversity" and "representation" in video games are nothing but a small club, a closed circle of 1st world priviliged white guys and girls that are all in bed with eachother and are completely corrupt, they work in journalism, in indie development and in PR and who knows how deep does this go.

 

And they have to go, and hopefully will, because if what I know is true, these people have commited fraud and this might get legal.

 

 

Boys, boys, boys...

 

There is no gaming journalist conspiracy to control the direction around inclusivity in games. Its not real, its in your head. You guys must stop feeding each others ideas with these preposterous suggestions

 

Firstly the idea of a conspiracy theory is that it needs to be done subtlety and surreptitiously in order to have maximum influence . If Elvis acknowledged he wasn't dead ...well it wouldn't be much a mystery would it and the "Elvis Lives" cult would die an early death. If there were 10 articles written the same day in order to influence us poor silly gamers this wouldn't  be a very efficient way to get a message across secretly because just look at reaction from you guys? An effective conspiracy would have staggered the articles over a period of time, you don't kill people with a deluge of over information.

 

So logically what does this tell us? All it tells us is that this is a talking point that many people want to support or at least read about. So now you have gaming journalists jumping on the band wagon and giving there opinion or pretending to really  care about equality but its just being done to draw people to there websites, but this is no conspiracy theory....its simple self-preservation and a way to increase revenue. The only reason people like Totalbiscuit don't discuss it is because everything that needs to be said about the topic has been said in his view and he isn't prepared to comprise his journalistic integrity with  some lame " hey guys I really care about equality " article. I respect this type of stance

 

 

So where do we go from here ? People like me do care about equality and want to see certain changes in games but there is an inordinate amount of attention on this topic now from people who never cared about it in the past. Let the storm of media attention end and we can carry on discussing meaningful changes in games  

Edited September 2, 2014 by BruceVC

[Malcador]

Maybe sockpuppets is also a tactic in use by them, hmm.

 

 

There is no gaming journalist conspiracy to control the direction around inclusivity in games. Its not real, its in your head. You guys must stop feeding each others ideas with these preposterous suggestions

Conspiracy, nah. Certainly is a bit of groupthink about them, but that comes with that crowd anyway.

[Orogun01]

Boys, boys, boys...

 

There is no gaming journalist conspiracy to control the direction around inclusivity in games. Its not real, its in your head. You guys must stop feeding each others ideas with these preposterous suggestions

 

Firstly the idea of a conspiracy theory is that it needs to be done subtlety and surreptitiously in order to have maximum influence . If Elvis acknowledged he wasn't dead ...well it wouldn't be much a mystery would it and the "Elvis Lives" cult would die an early death. If there were 10 articles written the same day in order to influence us poor silly gamers this wouldn't  be a very efficient way to get a message across secretly because just look at reaction from you guys? An effective conspiracy would have staggered the articles over a period of time, you don't kill people with a deluge of over information.

 

So logically what does this tell us? All it tells us is that this is a talking point that many people want to support or at least read about. So now you have gaming journalists jumping on the band wagon and giving there opinion or pretending to really  care about equality but its just being done to draw people to there websites, but this is no conspiracy theory....its simple self-preservation and a way to increase revenue. The only reason people like Totalbiscuit don't discuss it is because everything that needs to be said about the topic has been said in his view and he isn't prepared to comprise his journalistic integrity with  some lame " hey guys I really care about equality " article. I respect this type of stance

 

 

So where do we go from here ? People like me do care about equality and want to see certain changes in games but there is an inordinate amount of attention on this topic now from people who never cared about it in the past. Let the storm of media attention end and we can carry on discussing meaningful changes in games  

Indeed is not a conspiracy since it doesn't involve aliens or the government, I mean is just a group of people in collision coordinating to commit unethical acts. That isn't the definition of conspiracy! (it is actually) If you're going to dismiss every fact because some speculation you would be doing yourself harm by denying the truth. Which is that these people have a ties with each other that run across more than one media group and haven't been shy in using those connections. It certainly merits investigation and that's what was being hoped from real journalists; the man we thought Eric Kain to be, but every media outlet seems unwilling to take the story or even take the opposing argument. That kind of singular thinking doesn't strike you as odd? That the whole of gaming media has a shared opinion on gamers at the same time that they decide to investigate them? 

[BruceVC]

http://dangolding.tumblr.com/post/95985875943/the-end-of-gamers

 

Guys here is a good article that is similar to the  Leigh Alexander article on Gamasutra. But its less hysterical, less aggressive  and more cogent IMO. You may have read it before but it articulates the whole " the gamer is dead " perspective and explains it in way that is more reasonable

 

In summary

 

" On the evidence of the last few weeks, what we are seeing is the end of gamers, and the viciousness that accompanies the death of an identity. Due to fundamental shifts in the videogame audience, and a move towards progressive attitudes within more traditional areas of videogame culture, the gamer identity has been broken. It has nowhere to call home, and so it reaches out inarticulately at invented problems, such as bias and corruption, which are partly just ways of expressing confusion as to why things the traditional gamer does not understand are successful (that such confusion results in abject heartlessness is an indictment on the character of the male-focussed gamer culture to begin with)"

 

Do you guys think this is a fair perspective ?

 

The only criticism  from  my side is at the end he says

 

" EDIT: This post does not do nearly enough to acknowledge that women have been playing, making, and thinking about games throughout game history. The stats that I quote above about adult women outnumbering teenage men could fairly be read as an erasure of this fact and for this I apologise unequivocally. Women are here now and they have always been here, but they are often deliberately made invisible for cultural, financial, and bigoted reasons. It is everyone’s job—perhaps mine especially given this post—to reverse this in history, and the present. Perhaps the most important lesson to be taken from all of this is that women’s voices are more important than ever: something that this post does disappointingly little to address"

 

I think this is unnecessarily obsequious, he is pandering to any women who is reading this article. He made his point in a good way without having to add this last paragraph. I just think its overdone as he must have received some critique after making this blog

[Volourn]

Anyone who wants the death of gamers are evil scumbags. Plain and simple.

 

 

Also, the idea that games turn people violent or sexist is bullcrap. Violence and sexism existed before gaems and if games were ever done they would still exist.

 

But, hey, feminists are evil scumbags just like the 'old boys clubs' they love to fight. They deserve each other - the pieces of crap they both are.

[BruceVC]

 

Boys, boys, boys...

 

There is no gaming journalist conspiracy to control the direction around inclusivity in games. Its not real, its in your head. You guys must stop feeding each others ideas with these preposterous suggestions

 

Firstly the idea of a conspiracy theory is that it needs to be done subtlety and surreptitiously in order to have maximum influence . If Elvis acknowledged he wasn't dead ...well it wouldn't be much a mystery would it and the "Elvis Lives" cult would die an early death. If there were 10 articles written the same day in order to influence us poor silly gamers this wouldn't  be a very efficient way to get a message across secretly because just look at reaction from you guys? An effective conspiracy would have staggered the articles over a period of time, you don't kill people with a deluge of over information.

 

So logically what does this tell us? All it tells us is that this is a talking point that many people want to support or at least read about. So now you have gaming journalists jumping on the band wagon and giving there opinion or pretending to really  care about equality but its just being done to draw people to there websites, but this is no conspiracy theory....its simple self-preservation and a way to increase revenue. The only reason people like Totalbiscuit don't discuss it is because everything that needs to be said about the topic has been said in his view and he isn't prepared to comprise his journalistic integrity with  some lame " hey guys I really care about equality " article. I respect this type of stance

 

 

So where do we go from here ? People like me do care about equality and want to see certain changes in games but there is an inordinate amount of attention on this topic now from people who never cared about it in the past. Let the storm of media attention end and we can carry on discussing meaningful changes in games  

Indeed is not a conspiracy since it doesn't involve aliens or the government, I mean is just a group of people in collision coordinating to commit unethical acts. That isn't the definition of conspiracy! (it is actually) If you're going to dismiss every fact because some speculation you would be doing yourself harm by denying the truth. Which is that these people have a ties with each other that run across more than one media group and haven't been shy in using those connections. It certainly merits investigation and that's what was being hoped from real journalists; the man we thought Eric Kain to be, but every media outlet seems unwilling to take the story or even take the opposing argument. That kind of singular thinking doesn't strike you as odd? That the whole of gaming media has a shared opinion on gamers at the same time that they decide to investigate them? 

 

 

No I don't see it as odd, you guys must realize the real outrage about the misogyny and abuse hurled at Zoe Quinn is just completely unacceptable for most people. It was too much so now most gaming journalists have drawn a line and whether its due to the fact they really don't support this type of bigotry or they are doing it because they know its popular to discuss this type of thing the end result is the same. No one is prepared to defend or justify the detractors of Zoe Quinn and frankly I don't blame them

 

I have been saying this since I joined these forums, but  words matter and what you say about someone does matter. And now you have  a group of gaming journalists deciding that they won't try to defend or understand the indefensible. I would rather have too much attention on this topic than not enough. This is just a social adjustment around what people are prepared to accept and what people are prepared to say. Its healthy and something which in the long term I believe will have a positive outcome for the gaming industry

[BruceVC]

Anyone who wants the death of gamers are evil scumbags. Plain and simple.

 

 

Also, the idea that games turn people violent or sexist is bullcrap. Violence and sexism existed before gaems and if games were ever done they would still exist.

 

But, hey, feminists are evil scumbags just like the 'old boys clubs' they love to fight. They deserve each other - the pieces of crap they both are.

 

Volo you understand what the definition of the word "gamers" is in the context of this debate? What do you think word means to you when people say "gamers " are dead?

[Malcador]

Well what is a gamer to you ? Your side is on offense against that term. Maybe you stated it earlier.

 

Heh and why is Quinn sacred such that her detractors can not be defended? There was a Forbes article that advised that women in gaming not be criticized ever, even if one feels it is warranted. Will loom it up once off mobile

 

Bruce should lap that up.

[Volourn]

Gamers are people who game. Period.

 

Even if they like games I don't.

 

Even if they have different views than me.

 

Games are gamers.

 

I'm a gamer.

 

You are a gamer.

 

Those who play DA are gamers.

 

Those who play FO:NV are gamers.

 

Those who play TOEE are gamers.

 

Those who play WOW are gamers,

 

Those who play Madden are gamers.

 

Those who play Angry Birds are gamers.

 

 

People who want to destroy gamers forever are pieces of crap. And, trying to turn the term 'gamer' into an anti female term is plain evil, ignorant, scumbaggy, innsane, delusional, and nazi like behaviour,.

[Orogun01]

No I don't see it as odd, you guys must realize the real outrage about the misogyny and abuse hurled at Zoe Quinn is just completely unacceptable for most people. It was too much so now most gaming journalists have drawn a line and whether its due to the fact they really don't support this type of bigotry or they are doing it because they know its popular to discuss this type of thing the end result is the same. No one is prepared to defend or justify the detractors of Zoe Quinn and frankly I don't blame them

How about the outrage that for past 3 or so years a group has hijacked game media and injected their political agenda? Every argument started by feminism can be traced back to people involved in this scandal. The opposition has moved on from Quinn's infidelity any abuse she gets is from fringe elements, you know like the ones feminist have but seem to have a blind spot for, specially on matters like this one.

The only reason that her name is being brought up is because she is the departure point of most of the investigation and seem to be well connected. The last video (if you watched it) was about Maya and the one before that concerned with Patricia Hernandez, Ana Anthropy and Steven Totillo. I mean, what they did would have gotten them fired on any other job.

 

No company would put themselves on the line of fire for an employed that misbehaved, heck they wouldn't do it for one that's just suspect of misbehavior. So why is it that the gaming media has rally for them and against gamers? Plus, is hard to feel they're doing this out of some sense of respect for the integrity of those involved in the scandal since they haven't had qualms in the past of ruining developer's careers with accusations of misogyny and the like. Even going as far as publishing personal information and taking a stand against them.

I have been saying this since I joined these forums, but  words matter and what you say about someone does matter. And now you have  a group of gaming journalists deciding that they won't try to defend or understand the indefensible. I would rather have too much attention on this topic than not enough. This is just a social adjustment around what people are prepared to accept and what people are prepared to say. Its healthy and something which in the long term I believe will have a positive outcome for the gaming industry

If words matter to them why don't they police their speech better, certainly you have seen how they use the same rhetoric they claim to despise with the same childish glee as their alleged abusers seem to do.

When you say "won't try to defend or understand the indefensible", what exactly are you referring to? Foul language against the Indie media and developers or the fact what they do is inexcusable and their double standard is as clear as glass. Because I'm really having trouble seeing how are gamers the bad guys here.

 

If what you're saying is that a positive outcome of all this might be that we would get a better class of journalist, one that can enrich the medium without politicizing or deriding it, I agree.

[BruceVC]

Gamers are people who game. Period.

 

Even if they like games I don't.

 

Even if they have different views than me.

 

Games are gamers.

 

I'm a gamer.

 

You are a gamer.

 

Those who play DA are gamers.

 

Those who play FO:NV are gamers.

 

Those who play TOEE are gamers.

 

Those who play WOW are gamers,

 

Those who play Madden are gamers.

 

Those who play Angry Birds are gamers.

 

 

People who want to destroy gamers forever are pieces of crap. And, trying to turn the term 'gamer' into an anti female term is plain evil, ignorant, scumbaggy, innsane, delusional, and nazi like behaviour,.

 

Incorrect, the definition of a "gamer" refers to any white, male gamer who refuses to accept that the gaming demographic is changing and is very vociferous and obstructive to any perceived  changes to how games incorporate the entire fanbase.  Now these changes are reasonable and are just about inclusivity and equality. This does mean our games will be destroyed or changed to the point where they don't offer us entertainment. So this is nothing to be fearful of, this is a good thing. A example of his change would be something like Assassins Creed  Unity having a female and male protagonist. This really shouldn't be a big deal?

 

Well what is a gamer to you ? Your side is on offense against that term. Maybe you stated it earlier.

 

Heh and why is Quinn sacred such that her detractors can not be defended? There was a Forbes article that advised that women in gaming not be criticized ever, even if one feels it is warranted. Will loom it up once off mobile

 

Bruce should lap that up.

 

Do you have that Forbes article? Because obviously no one is above not being criticized and your gender shouldn't make a difference. So I wouldn't agree with that if that is what the article says

[BruceVC]

 

No I don't see it as odd, you guys must realize the real outrage about the misogyny and abuse hurled at Zoe Quinn is just completely unacceptable for most people. It was too much so now most gaming journalists have drawn a line and whether its due to the fact they really don't support this type of bigotry or they are doing it because they know its popular to discuss this type of thing the end result is the same. No one is prepared to defend or justify the detractors of Zoe Quinn and frankly I don't blame them

How about the outrage that for past 3 or so years a group has hijacked game media and injected their political agenda? Every argument started by feminism can be traced back to people involved in this scandal. The opposition has moved on from Quinn's infidelity any abuse she gets is from fringe elements, you know like the ones feminist have but seem to have a blind spot for, specially on matters like this one.

The only reason that her name is being brought up is because she is the departure point of most of the investigation and seem to be well connected. The last video (if you watched it) was about Maya and the one before that concerned with Patricia Hernandez, Ana Anthropy and Steven Totillo. I mean, what they did would have gotten them fired on any other job.

 

No company would put themselves on the line of fire for an employed that misbehaved, heck they wouldn't do it for one that's just suspect of misbehavior. So why is it that the gaming media has rally for them and against gamers? Plus, is hard to feel they're doing this out of some sense of respect for the integrity of those involved in the scandal since they haven't had qualms in the past of ruining developer's careers with accusations of misogyny and the like. Even going as far as publishing personal information and taking a stand against them.

I have been saying this since I joined these forums, but  words matter and what you say about someone does matter. And now you have  a group of gaming journalists deciding that they won't try to defend or understand the indefensible. I would rather have too much attention on this topic than not enough. This is just a social adjustment around what people are prepared to accept and what people are prepared to say. Its healthy and something which in the long term I believe will have a positive outcome for the gaming industry

If words matter to them why don't they police their speech better, certainly you have seen how they use the same rhetoric they claim to despise with the same childish glee as their alleged abusers seem to do.

When you say "won't try to defend or understand the indefensible", what exactly are you referring to? Foul language against the Indie media and developers or the fact what they do is inexcusable and their double standard is as clear as glass. Because I'm really having trouble seeing how are gamers the bad guys here.

 

If what you're saying is that a positive outcome of all this might be that we would get a better class of journalist, one that can enrich the medium without politicizing or deriding it, I agree.

 

 

I'll respond to this later, I have to go to work

[kirottu]

 

Gamers are people who game. Period.

 

Even if they like games I don't.

 

Even if they have different views than me.

 

Games are gamers.

 

I'm a gamer.

 

You are a gamer.

 

Those who play DA are gamers.

 

Those who play FO:NV are gamers.

 

Those who play TOEE are gamers.

 

Those who play WOW are gamers,

 

Those who play Madden are gamers.

 

Those who play Angry Birds are gamers.

 

 

People who want to destroy gamers forever are pieces of crap. And, trying to turn the term 'gamer' into an anti female term is plain evil, ignorant, scumbaggy, innsane, delusional, and nazi like behaviour,.

 

Incorrect, the definition of a "gamer" refers to any white, male gamer who refuses to accept that the gaming demographic is changing and is very vociferous and obstructive to any perceived  changes to how games incorporate the entire fanbase.

 

No, it is you who is incorrect. Gamer is a person who plays games. That's it. That what it literally is. All that other stuff is bull****. It is makebelieve that people with agenda are forcing down our throats.

 

No male gamer is angry that women are starting play more games. Having a gamer girlfriend is probably a dream for us all.

 

Oh, and go check the definition of "gamer" from a dictionary. That is what you like to do, right?

[Fighter]

No one wants to "keep women down". No one wants them out of games. No one hates women for being women. No one wants to prevent the industry from targeting women/gays/whoever. There isn't anyone like this save for a few even among those who hurl insults and threats. This misogyny thing doesn't exist.

 

What people don't like is the outrage culture and bulling tactics where people have to be ashamed that they are men making games for men with distinctly male fantasies in them. There are a lot of these social justice minded types who see those male centric things as offensive and don't just want diversity, they want developers to stop making those things. They don't want an industry with a thousand voices, they want unified standards when it comes to what indulgences men are permitted to have by making the things they don't like taboo by labelling people bigots, misogynists, and wierdos.

 

Incorrect, the definition of a "gamer" refers to any white, male gamer who refuses to accept that the gaming demographic is changing and is very vociferous and obstructive to any perceived  changes to how games incorporate the entire fanbase.  Now these changes are reasonable and are just about inclusivity and equality. This does mean our games will be destroyed or changed to the point where they don't offer us entertainment. So this is nothing to be fearful of, this is a good thing. A example of his change would be something like Assassins Creed  Unity having a female and male protagonist. This really shouldn't be a big deal?

 

People realizing women are a viable market segment is not a big deal. People fretting over inclusion any time they have an idea that's not targeted at everyone because they are afraid of a scandal by all the crybabies that control the discussion is a big deal.
 

Edited September 2, 2014 by Fighter

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I'm sorry but i'm not aware that walking around and solving basic puzzles is particularly innovative, I was doing that in games twenty plus years ago. With the games I listed you get much more, this is simply an objective fact. If games followed Dear Esthers path we would be removing what little content is left in them.

 

I agree that Dear Esther did not suffer from political correctness, but it would almost certainly have been forced to if Silverstring media and their consultants were mandating content. That is their avowed aim, to push their currently fashionable agenda.

 

 

It was innovative in its approach to storytelling, not in gameplay.

 

As for "enforced political correctness taking over games"... the tabletop RPG industry proves that to be kind of bollocks. You can see the trend: the new edition of D&D talks about how your character may not fit into the gender binary - at its core, however, it's still a game about murderhobos killing monsters and taking their stuff, except said murderhobos may now be genderqueer. Pathfinder has a trans signature character, a potion of gender change, and one of their APs features a lesbian paladin NPC. They still do Standard Adventurer Stuff. Exalted 3E's example characters (all five of them) are, without an exception, people of color, with a trans man among them. Regardless, it's still a game about shiny superheroes doing all kinds of wuxia ****, not about minority rights.

 

 

 

Re: link, words can't express the pain and outrage I feel at this gross violation of artists' rights to draw boobplate.

 

Beign afraid to lose your job is a problem, but your comment doesn't seem very empathetic to begin with so I guess you don't give a damn.

 

Damn right I don't give a damn about the plight of a dude who can't even spell "sexist" and screams about his rights being violated when he's asked to cover the belly of the female character in armor because that way lies getting stabbed in the gut and a very painful, very prolonged death (trust me, I'm a doctor).

 

 

Incorrect, the definition of a "gamer" refers to any white, male gamer who refuses to accept that the gaming demographic is changing and is very vociferous and obstructive to any perceived  changes to how games incorporate the entire fanbase.

No, it is you who is incorrect. Gamer is a person who plays games. That's it. That what it literally is. All that other stuff is bull****. It is makebelieve that people with agenda are forcing down our throats.

 

What Bruce means is that people who have "gamer" as a core pillar of their self-identity are generally white, male and reasonably well-off.

Edited September 2, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[BruceVC]

 

No, it is you who is incorrect. Gamer is a person who plays games. That's it. That what it literally is. All that other stuff is bull****. It is makebelieve that people with agenda are forcing down our throats.

 

No male gamer is angry that women are starting play more games. Having a gamer girlfriend is probably a dream for us all.

 

Oh, and go check the definition of "gamer" from a dictionary. That is what you like to do, right?

 

 

You right, the correct definitions  of words are important to me. But that's why I said to Volo " "gamers is in the context of this debate"

 

In other words you can't use the dictionary for this particular word because the word doesn't represent the

 

End of the day I'm trying to get you guys to understand this is not an attack on white, male gamers. Its a campaign against people who don't want to accept that things are changing in the gaming industry. Now you really only have  two choices around how you view this change

 

• You can continue to intentionally misunderstand what people are saying and create a problem where there isn't one. You can vent and lambast every gaming journalist but that won't change the reality of what is going to be considered acceptable going forward around inclusivity in games
• You can see this change as something positive which doesn't really effect you in any meaningful way. You will still have your entertaining RPG, FPS and you will still have your GTAV  type  experiences. But as far as the major publishers are concerned there will be an expectation from them that there games represent  the fanbase fairly and realistically. Its not complicated or unreasonable

 

I would think you would prefer the second point?