Ukraine discussion

[BruceVC]

 

http://www.dw.de/foo...nomy/a-17888880

Can't wait to hear about how this is western media lies from oby.

Personally this ban of foreign food no cause effect to me. I prefer fresh food (meat, fish, milk, fruits etc) - this is meant i buy food only from local manufacturers. But anyway China and South America fully replace European import on our food marked, if someone prefer foreign food instead. Sorry Europe, but your expectations about starving Russians is fantasy.

We actually don't notice nor sanctions, nor war in Ukraine (except huge amount of Ukrainian refugees everywhere), just continue our pastoral life. I even disappointed because i do want falling of Ruble for some Euro speculations but EU and US performance too ****ty for it. Inflation is not higger than in peace time anyway.

 

Meanwhile for European farmers this ban is quite painful ( their business is not too profitable even without sanctions ) and mainstream media just pacify them by such cool stories about suffered Russians.

 

 

Yes my friend but the facts are you can only get certain types of food from places like Europe. For example Parma Ham, Parmesan and Gorgonzola cheese and certain wines. You cannot replace this with substitutes from places like China because the reason for example Gorgonzola cheese tastes like it does is because of the unique mold that cultivates in the area in Italy where this cheese comes from

 

So Russia is now denying itself arguably the best food in the world

[obyknven]

 

So Russia is now denying itself arguably the best food in the world

 

  :lol:  

You don't understand. Our taxes extremely lower, and food manufacturing become extremely more profitable than in EU or US. Our local farmers (some amounts of them IRL are US and EU expats) protected by ban of foreign food begin make all these cheeses by yourself. And best food = fresh food, we never buy food with date of manufacturing later than yesterday. Foreign food as you understand not so fresh. Add to this all these antibiotics, hormones, preservatives and other **** used by EU manufacturers and you take fair image - EU food exactly is not best food. For example after Russian ban Poland can't sell own ****ty apples to nowhere now.

 

Just for your education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism

[Walsingham]

 Where are the Russian Tanks?

 

G

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28961080

 

Variant of T72 never used as export turns up in Ukraine.

 

Also, bit over-excited there. Forgot your bad grammar and mis-spellings completely.

[obyknven]

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28961080

 

Variant of T72 never used as export turns up in Ukraine.

 

Also, bit over-excited there. Forgot your bad grammar and mis-spellings completely.

 

 Holy ****! Somebody buy Russian tank?! Nothing personal just business.

Murica and satellites constantly sell arms to many bloody bastards (Syria, ISIS for example), but we don't make hysterias about this. Murica supply Ukrainian punishers (who kill at least 2000 civilians, while other sources tell about 10 000 - 20 000 killed people) also, but we don't cry about this, we even do want moar NATO arms or NATO intervention here, this is must be ideal for testing of new weapons and new tactics here (Ukrainian army is too weak for serious games).

 

Another example is invasion of US troops into territory of sovereign Syria.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/20/world/meast/isis-james-foley/

If Murica do this constantly why we can't do same thing? Or you too think Murica is exeptional and «All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others»?

[Zoraptor]

T72BMs were exported*. And manufactured prior to the break up of the USSR as well, so it is feasible for Ukraine to have inherited them, same as they inherited the rest of their T-72s.

 

*As, uh, T-90 variants, which may be where the confusion comes from, to be charitable. If you'd like an independent cite here's one, if you'd like more info than you could ever use (and from nearly two decades per current crisis, for added independence) here's another.

[obyknven]

fresh map

 

Murika! Halp!

[Gromnir]

 

 

http://www.dw.de/foo...nomy/a-17888880

Can't wait to hear about how this is western media lies from oby.

Personally this ban of foreign food no cause effect to me. I prefer fresh food (meat, fish, milk, fruits etc) - this is meant i buy food only from local manufacturers. But anyway China and South America fully replace European import on our food marked, if someone prefer foreign food instead. Sorry Europe, but your expectations about starving Russians is fantasy.

We actually don't notice nor sanctions, nor war in Ukraine (except huge amount of Ukrainian refugees everywhere), just continue our pastoral life. I even disappointed because i do want falling of Ruble for some Euro speculations but EU and US performance too ****ty for it. Inflation is not higger than in peace time anyway.

 

Meanwhile for European farmers this ban is quite painful ( their business is not too profitable even without sanctions ) and mainstream media just pacify them by such cool stories about suffered Russians.

 

 

Yes my friend but the facts are you can only get certain types of food from places like Europe. For example Parma Ham, Parmesan and Gorgonzola cheese and certain wines. You cannot replace this with substitutes from places like China because the reason for example Gorgonzola cheese tastes like it does is because of the unique mold that cultivates in the area in Italy where this cheese comes from

 

So Russia is now denying itself arguably the best food in the world

 

the inability to get certain luxury goods will hurt various russian restaurateurs, but won't be a major source o' pain for russians. 

 

the thing is, and am certain we posted this earlier in the ukraine thread, the typical russian spends 35% o' his total income on food. that is a huge increase compared to most westerners who is in the 5%-7% range. whenever there is talk o' adding a small flat tax on stuff such as gasoline here in the USA, there is widespread, and justified, outcry from the liberals and the poor, because a flat tax on essential costs such as utilities and gasoline and food disproportional hurt poor folks who has less disposable income.  is a similar issue the russians face with increase in food prices. even a small increase in food prices will have a significant impact on russians because the average russian spends such a large % o' their total income on food. one reason why the russians were getting food from europeans and not brazil or china is 'cause euro food were cheaper.  this is economics 101. is not complex.

 

the only noteworthy industry russia has is petroleum exports-- they ain't a modern service economy. well, they got weapon exports too, but is small change compared to petroleum. sanctions is gonna hurt russia 'cause their economy is not particular diverse-- it is very easy to hurt an economy that is dependent on a single export by using sanctions. at the same time that russia is getting hit with sanctions, they is self inflicting an increase in price o' food. 

 

but yeah, apple farmers in poland will be hurt by russian food sanctions as near 50% o' their crop goes to russia. 'course only .3% o' poland's total exports is apples. danish cheese makers and many lithuainian food producers could be hurt by across-the-board food sanctions, but most europeans will hardly notice the the impact o' russian food sanctions.  some european folks will be hurt though, is no question 'bout it.  

 

but again, just as the russian economy were heading towards a recession, they get hit with sanctions and then self-impose food sanctions o' their own? perhaps putin is gonna use the sanctions as camouflage. without sanctions, recession would be blamed on putin. sanctions allows for a possible, if moronic condemnation o' the west for russian economic slowdown... but russians love a good conspiracy. is possible that putin will use pain o' economic suffering to drum up additional nationalistic furor?  dunno. not much makes sense when you look at food sanctions rationally.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[sorophx]

http://www.straight.com/news/717061/gwynne-dyer-its-not-yet-all-out-war-between-russia-and-ukraine-its-close

this doesn't feel right. Ukrainian troops, mostly consisting of volunteers, stall Russian forces, the same ones that crushed NATO trained Georgia just a few years ago? 

 

I know that Russian special forces and private contractors are working in Ukraine, supporting the rebel cause, but why would anyone send regular troops... this is not a very smart move, Putin can't be that desperate, can he?

[Volourn]

Not desperate. But, his intention is to either complete annex Ukraine or otherwise make it even way tinier than he is. I just wish he was honest about it instead of constantly lying.

[BruceVC]

Not desperate. But, his intention is to either complete annex Ukraine or otherwise make it even way tinier than he is. I just wish he was honest about it instead of constantly lying.

 

Actually from what I have been seeing he doesn't want to conquer the whole of Ukraine but wants a corridor  through Ukraine from Eastern Ukraine to the Crimea which Russia has already illegally annexed

[pmp10]

 

http://www.straight.com/news/717061/gwynne-dyer-its-not-yet-all-out-war-between-russia-and-ukraine-its-close

this doesn't feel right. Ukrainian troops, mostly consisting of volunteers, stall Russian forces, the same ones that crushed NATO trained Georgia just a few years ago? 

 

I know that Russian special forces and private contractors are working in Ukraine, supporting the rebel cause, but why would anyone send regular troops... this is not a very smart move, Putin can't be that desperate, can he?

 

That's just a dozen poorly placed paratroopers.

By most accounts since the Russian intervention it's the Ukrainian troops who are surrendering.

[Zoraptor]

I can perfectly believe that those paratroops accidentally entered Ukraine. They're still the only regular Russian troops captured that have been documented believably, and even the Ukrainians say that they didn't fire a shot before surrendering and had no back up.

 

By the rebel accounts the Ukrainians have been surrendering for some time, it's mainly that they haven't been confirmed by the Ukrainian government hence haven't been reported. And that really is the problem, the rebels said that they were actually doing pretty well in the south but it was never reported, so the abrupt Ukrainian collapse there looks suspicious; if you go by the information provided by the rebels it looks a lot less so. Frankly, the whole southern front was extremely vulnerable, since it was a long, narrow, salient exposed to being cut in multiple places by counter attack, and with no safe supply line. It was a month ago that 400 odd crossed into Russia and surrendered due to being surrounded and out of ammo, well before the alleged large scale intervention, and even Ukraine admitted twice as many had been surrounded (while their situation map used by most media to show what is happening had them gaining ground in the area where that surrender happened, go figure). The big problem is that information coming from the Ukrainian government is not viewed as being from an interested party by the media in general, so it's impossible to get a balanced picture conventionally. So when their front does collapse people look for a reason that doesn't involve them being naive for believing an interested party, and the obvious reason is 'Russia did it'.

 

Sheesh, the current iteration of the Ukrainian version of the sitmap still has Ukraine holding Ilovaesk, and there's genuinely independent confirmation (indeed, confirmation from the commander of the Ukrainian unit there) that it is far behind the current front and that the troops there have surrendered. But the BBC (and Al Jazeera, albeit with a proper disclaimer as to its source) still use the map supplied by Ukraine.

[Gromnir]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/russia-markets-idUSL5N0QY1H820140828

 

is additional bad news for russian economy. the ruble dropped another .5% v. the dollar on monday, and situation appears to only be getting worse with looming threat of increased european sanctions as russian troops move into the ukraine. the devaluing o' the ruble means that the cost o' buying foreign food will effectively increase, regardless o' where the russians find replacement sources o' basic foodstuffs. 

 

it is very difficult to explain the foreign food sanctions as they seem aimed at hurting russia. for humanitarian reasons, a number o' western nations have a policy against imposing sanctions on food and medical supplies, but the self imposed food sanctions by russia is, at best, a perplexing move from an economic perspective.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[obyknven]

Yeah, yeah Russia suffer blah-blah...  we need moar panic for... market speculations

 

But if you do want talk about real situation:

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-eternal-collapse-russia-11126

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/876238.shtml

 

Meanwhile in Ukraine.

Gruppenfuehrer of Ukrainian Naziguard batallion deanoned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULJFQbc7eM4

Yeah this is a new face of Master race.

 

Gauleiter of Polish General Government' territory become a new EU leader!

 

Angela Merkel, has been Tusk's strongest backer

 

 

 

 

[BruceVC]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/28/russia-markets-idUSL5N0QY1H820140828

 

is additional bad news for russian economy. the ruble dropped another .5% v. the dollar on monday, and situation appears to only be getting worse with looming threat of increased european sanctions as russian troops move into the ukraine. the devaluing o' the ruble means that the cost o' buying foreign food will effectively increase, regardless o' where the russians find replacement sources o' basic foodstuffs. 

 

it is very difficult to explain the foreign food sanctions as they seem aimed at hurting russia. for humanitarian reasons, a number o' western nations have a policy against imposing sanctions on food and medical supplies, but the self imposed food sanctions by russia is, at best, a perplexing move from an economic perspective.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

As I keep maintaining the only realistic way that you will get Russia to change its course is through sanctions, not military action by the West. They will take time but they will be effective.

 

People may say " Putin doesn't care about sanctions",  this is absolute nonsense as every country in the world cares about its economy and the effect sanctions will have. The real sanctions haven't  even been implemented yet and what we are seeing is just the preliminary lack of investor confidence

 

Most of you probably remember the defiance and intransigence we saw from Iran who " would never let there sovereignty be effected by Western powers"...and after several years and the stepping up of sanctions they came to the negotiation table because of the exact pernicious impact of sanctions

 

But Gromnir I want to ask you something, you have alluded in the past that Obama is weak because he hasn't used military intervention is several conflicts around the world, like Syria . Do you think how he is dealing with the Ukraine crisis makes him weak? Should he do something different?

[Chilloutman]

haha

 

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/747574

 

back to their 'world-famous name' xD

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph_Agency_of_the_Soviet_Union

 

Yeah we in post-soviet block remember well why it was famous xD

Edited September 2, 2014 by Chilloutman

[pmp10]

As I keep maintaining the only realistic way that you will get Russia to change its course is through sanctions, not military action by the West. They will take time but they will be effective.

 

If sanctions were really intended to force deescalation then they have already failed.

And the self-embargo shows clearly how effective it would be to strike at common Russians.

 

Honestly I doubt anyone in the west thinks Ukraine can be saved anymore.

Now discussion should be about containing Putin before he makes his next move.

[obyknven]

Top Ten Ways You Can Tell if Russia Has Invaded Ukraine

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/september/01/top-ten-ways-you-can-tell-if-russia-has-invaded-ukraine.aspx

 

Because if Russia invaded on Thursday morning, this is what the situation on the ground would look like by Saturday afternoon.

1. Ukrainian artillery fell silent almost immediately. They are no longer shelling residential districts of Donetsk and Lugansk. This is because their locations had been pinpointed prior to the operation, and by Thursday afternoon they were completely wiped out using air attacks, artillery and ground-based rocket fire, as the first order of business. Local residents are overjoyed that their horrible ordeal is finally at an end.

2. The look of military activity on the ground in Donetsk and Lugansk has changed dramatically. Whereas before it involved small groups of resistance fighters, the Russians operate in battalions of 400 men and dozens of armored vehicles, followed by convoys of support vehicles (tanker trucks, communications, field kitchens, field hospitals and so on). The flow of vehicles in and out is non-stop, plainly visible on air reconnaissance and satellite photos. Add to that the relentless radio chatter, all in Russian, which anyone who wants to can intercept, and the operation becomes impossible to hide. 

3. The Ukrainian military has promptly vanished. Soldiers and officers alike have taken off their uniforms, abandoned their weapons, and are doing their best to blend in with the locals. Nobody thought the odds of the Ukrainian army against the Russians were any good. Ukraine's only military victory against Russia was at the battle of Konotop in 1659, but at the time Ukraine was allied with the mighty Khanate of Crimea, and, you may have noticed, Crimea is not on Ukraine's side this time around.

4. There are Russian checkpoints everywhere. Local civilians are allowed through, but anyone associated with a government, foreign or domestic, is detained for questioning. A filtration system has been set up to return demobilized Ukrainian army draftees to their native regions, while the volunteers and the officers are shunted to pretrial detention centers, to determine whether they had ordered war crimes to be committed.

5. Most of Ukraine's border crossings are by now under Russian control. Some have been reinforced with air defense and artillery systems and tank battalions, to dissuade NATO forces from attempting to stage an invasion. Civilians and humanitarian goods are allowed through. Businessmen are allowed through once they fill out the required forms (which are in Russian).

6. Russia has imposed a no-fly zone over all of Ukraine. All civilian flights have been cancelled. There is quite a crowd of US State Department staffers, CIA and Mossad agents, and Western NGO people stuck at Borispol airport in Kiev. Some are nervously calling everyone they know on their satellite phones. Western politicians are demanding that they be evacuated immediately, but Russian authorities want to hold onto them until their possible complicity in war crimes has been determined.

7. The usual Ukrainian talking heads, such as president Poroshenko, PM Yatsenyuk and others, are no longer available to be interviewed by Western media. Nobody quite knows where they are. There are rumors that they have already fled the country. Crowds have stormed their abandoned residences, and were amazed to discover that they were all outfitted with solid gold toilets. Nor are the Ukrainian oligarchs anywhere to be found, except for the warlord Igor Kolomoisky, who was found in his residence, abandoned by his henchmen, dead from a heart attack. (Contributed by the Saker.)

8. Some of the over 800,000 Ukrainian refugees are starting to stream back in from Russia. They were living in tent cities, many of them in the nearby Rostov region, but with the winter coming they are eager to get back home, now that the shelling is over. Along with them, construction crews, cement trucks and flatbeds stacked with pipe, cable and rebar are streaming in, to repair the damage from the shelling.

9. There is all sorts of intense diplomatic and military activity around the world, especially in Europe and the US. Military forces are on highest alert, diplomats are jetting around and holding conferences. President Obama just held a press conference to announce that “We don't have a strategy on Ukraine yet.” His military advisers tell him that his usual strategy of “bomb a little and see what happens” is not likely to be helpful in this instance.

10. Kiev has surrendered. There are Russian tanks on the Maidan Square. Russian infantry is mopping up the remains of Ukraine's National Guard. A curfew has been announced. The operation to take Kiev resembled “Shock and Awe” in Baghdad: a few loud bangs and then a whimper.

Armed with this list, you too should be able to determine whether or not Russia has invaded Ukraine last Thursday.
 

[Chilloutman]

 

As I keep maintaining the only realistic way that you will get Russia to change its course is through sanctions, not military action by the West. They will take time but they will be effective.

If sanctions were really intended to force deescalation then they have already failed.

And the self-embargo shows clearly how effective it would be to strike at common Russians.

 

Honestly I doubt anyone in the west thinks Ukraine can be saved anymore.

Now discussion should be about containing Putin before he makes his next move.

 

 

Well I am not sure how big psycho Putin is. Ukraine is one thing but moving to NATO or EU state would definetely grow into WW3 in few hours. Besides, Russian reputation is already screwed as they dont follow international agreements. Putin acts like its writtne on toilet paper.

[JadedWolf]

I really don't know what will change Putin's mind, if there's even anything that can change his mind. Like Gromnir mentioned earlier, the Russian economy was already in bad shape, and the sanctions are making it worse. But in a way for Putin the sanctions serve to put the blame for the bad economy elsewhere. The majority of Russians won't blame Putin, but the West for the rising prices they are faced with. It just means all the more fodder for Putin's propaganda channels, but it also means Putin really can't back down against the West - maybe even setting him on a more confrontational course than he had been planning on.

 

Then again, it's hard to know what goes on in the man's head. Is he a pragmatist who is grabbing as much as he can get away with? Or is he going for the full package, come what may? When even Merkel, who is anything but a hardliner when it comes to Russia, feels the need to assure the Baltic states protection against Russia if it should come to an invasion, it makes me personally quite nervous. Of course, no sane person would invade the Baltic states at this point, but it's really hard to tell if Putin at this point counts as a sane person.

[Chilloutman]

I really don't know what will change Putin's mind, if there's even anything that can change his mind. Like Gromnir mentioned earlier, the Russian economy was already in bad shape, and the sanctions are making it worse. But in a way for Putin the sanctions serve to put the blame for the bad economy elsewhere. The majority of Russians won't blame Putin, but the West for the rising prices they are faced with. It just means all the more fodder for Putin's propaganda channels, but it also means Putin really can't back down against the West - maybe even setting him on a more confrontational course than he had been planning on.

 

Then again, it's hard to know what goes on in the man's head. Is he a pragmatist who is grabbing as much as he can get away with? Or is he going for the full package, come what may? When even Merkel, who is anything but a hardliner when it comes to Russia, feels the need to assure the Baltic states protection against Russia if it should come to an invasion, it makes me personally quite nervous. Of course, no sane person would invade the Baltic states at this point, but it's really hard to tell if Putin at this point counts as a sane person.

Exactly, even thou Russia is militaristic powerhorse it doesnt have power to fight NATO and EU at same time. He would never win. And only possible outcome is nuclear holocaust. Even if he 'only' wants Ukraine or part of it, it will throw Russia in such position that they would start droping dead of starvation soon. Not to mention leave of intelectual class really soon

Edited September 2, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Zoraptor]

Putin always said that flipping Ukraine was a red line, and unlike Obama he actually meant it. West thought he was bluffing, Turchenov, Yatsenyuk, Poroshenko et al thought so to, but he wasn't. There isn't anything that can change his mind, because to his mind it's an existential issue. And, once you accept that that is how he views it he's being perfectly rational- from his point of view.

[BruceVC]

Putin always said that flipping Ukraine was a red line, and unlike Obama he actually meant it. West thought he was bluffing, Turchenov, Yatsenyuk, Poroshenko et al thought so to, but he wasn't. There isn't anything that can change his mind, because to his mind it's an existential issue. And, once you accept that that is how he views it he's being perfectly rational- from his point of view.

 

Nah, he has backtracked on several possible  militant and decisive actions, he does consider the consequences of his choices. If he was so unconcerned he would have openly invaded eastern Ukraine right from the beginning under the pretense he was protecting ethic Russians. This is something he has always said he would do

[HoonDing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GcpsqiqXBcw

 

lol, this is what Vlad is supporting?

[Fighter]

lol, this is what Vlad is supporting?

 

It is a joke. They do this because Ukrainians kept saying there are no local rebels in the east just Chechens sent from Russia.