Sensuki's Suggestions #008: A Feedback in Combat Comparison: PE vs IE

[Sensuki]

 

Here is a video that focuses on highlighting and targeting characters in combat in the Infinity Engine games and showcases some of the functions that Pillars of Eternity should include in the game.

 

I also forgot to state in the video that selecting and mousing over a character will give you exactly the same feedback, except that when you mouse over a character, their selection circle will blink. Tooltips and the character's targeting reticle appears both when selecting and mousing over. You will notice this behavior between 2:57-3:03 in the video.

 

Another thing I forgot to say is that targeting reticles do not appear at all unless you have the characters that are targeting anything selected, but that should be obvious in the video.

 

Mimicking such combat feedback would help distinguish who is doing what in combat, the lack of this feedback is one of the reasons why people are finding things so confusing.

 

Not to be rude, but it does make me wonder how often the developers open up an Infinity Engine game when noting down necessary functions. Improvements have been made since this time but videos like this really highlight how many things the Infinity Engine got so right. Lots and lots of modern games don't even have this kind of combat feedback.

 

I will make a series of combat videos about this topic, it's hard to try and think of everything in the same recording.

 

I would also like to re-iterate that tooltips should include both Stamina AND Health numbers.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sensuki

[Mayama]

I might add that it would really help if melee fighters could stay a little bit farther away from their target. The major readability problem for me is that everyone basicaly stands on top of each other.

[IndiraLightfoot]

These basic combat feedback functions are sorely missed! Love you for pointing this out, Sensuki!

 

I have no idea how they forgot to bring over such important combat feedback systems into PoE, but there you have it - we really need to have this stuff in the game.

[C2B]

These basic combat feedback functions are sorely missed! Love you for pointing this out, Sensuki!

 

I have no idea how they forgot to bring over such important combat feedback systems into PoE, but there you have it - we really need to have this stuff in the game.

 

Most likely they didn't forget (all of it), it's just not there yet.

 

Doesn't mean it isn't healthy to remind.

[Falendor]

^{Very Good, very well put suggestions in OP.  only thing id add is there needs to be a instant tooltip like tab in IE but still a "highlight all" key like what is currently in PoE.}

[Sensuki]

I might add that it would really help if melee fighters could stay a little bit farther away from their target. The major readability problem for me is that everyone basicaly stands on top of each other.

Yes. No selection circle should overlap at all. In the Infinity engine games (and all other RTS games), character boundaries are determined by their selection circles (unless they are air units, or in special cases) and they cannot occupy the same physical space.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sensuki

[Lorfean]

Great feedback -- I would like to see PoE targetting feedback work exactly like this.

 

One other issue with the way it works right now though, is that the "show character tooltip" functionality (Tab key) is tied to the "highlight objects / show examinable scenery" function. These should be seperate things in my opinon -- have one key that highlights objects, ground items and examinable scenery (magnifying glass icons) and a seperate key to show player chr tooltips. I also don't know if we really need this tooltip key to also show enemy tooltips by the way -- maybe if it just shows their name and health state (Injured, Near Death, etc.) it could work, but with all of their stats showing it becomes a cluttery mess.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Lorfean

[Sensuki]

In Icewind Dale, ALT is Highlight Objects on the ground and TAB cancels the tooltip delay over UI elements.

 

Regarding Falendor's post, perhaps there should be a toggle in the Options menu so you can turn on and off the displaying of every unit tooltip in combat. I'm really not a fan of that personally.

[Namutree]

Great suggestion that would make poe feel more like an IE game. I like to think Obsidian was already planning to do this anyway, but it helps reminds as another has said.

[Bazy]

How could anyone disagree with that accent?

 

It can also be a bit hard to tell when a caster is going to cast a spell. 

[Lorfean]

A toggle option would work for the enemy tooltips, yeah.

 

How do people feel about the enormous amount of information in the enemy tooltips when mousing over them? I am a bit divided on it -- in a way, it's nice to have the information so readily available when mousing over individual enemies, but the way it displays the information right now is very messy. The best way to do this IMO would be to have the Cyclopedia show all the information that can potentially be revealed, including the stats that just show ??? because the Lore requirement hasn't been met, and for the tooltips to only show those lines that you actually meet the Lore requirement for. So, if you don't meet the requirement to see an enemy's resistances, nothing related to them would show in the tooltip at all. This is more or less the way it works in Divine Divinity, where you have a "Know creature" skill, which unlocks additional lines of detailed creature information as you level it up.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Lorfean

[Sensuki]

You can actually disable all of that stuff and make it so that it's jut a tooltip with name and stamina number. It's all in the game options somewhere.

[Justinian]

I might add that it would really help if melee fighters could stay a little bit farther away from their target. The major readability problem for me is that everyone basicaly stands on top of each other.

 

This is actually a known issue that is being worked on as part of the pathfinding fix.

 

I think a major problem in combat readability (and readability in general) is that the characters don't stand out at all from the highly detailed backgrounds. Especially outside in the grass, there is super high contrast and detail on the ground, but a flat, vague look to all the characters as if they're spectres. Even the selection circles don't stand out enough. All this does is make the eye wander away from the combat itself.

 

Work less on blending the characters into the background and more on readability! It's super vital in a game like this and it's something the sprite based IE games had no issue with. Increase contrast on characters, put edge shading on them, make them pop. Silhouettes are vital for readability in a game with multiple characters on screen at once, and right now character profiles are just too difficult to make out.

 

Get that stuff right, and then work on animations that provide better hit feedback. Lastly, create a better variety of combat animations to liven up the whole thing.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Justinian

[Hormalakh]

Part of the problem is that I think they've tried to "fix" the pathfinding by allowing characters to override each other's selection circles, but then in combat this continues to be the case (the game doesn't know when to turn on or off this functionality) so then you get these sorts of issues without actually solving the pathfinding problem in the first place.

 

I don't think being able to occupy the same space on the map AT ANY TIME is the right decision: other methodologies should be utlilized, like waiting for the characters to move, pushing characters out of the way, speeding up movement/slowing down movement of characters (if everyone is WALKING down a narrow corridor and someone is behind you in that narrow corridor, the character in front should start to rush (i.e RUN) to get out of the way. Similarly, if you're the character behind someone, you stop RUNNING and start to WALK, unless you really have to go pee or something)

[Corto81]

I gotta say that combat in PoE has been largely unenjoyable, even after I got a decent grasp on it.

 

And yes, a huge factor is a lack of feedback.

I can't tell you the number of times I ended up casting Knockdown on my Rogue because I didn't notice the skill didn't catch when my fighter was casting it.

As others have mentioned, the toons are piled on top of each other, and the mobs just warp to your party unless instantly CCed, it makes is very hard to read what's actually going on.

 

There is a good amount of information coming back at the player (mousing over enemies gives you a ton of information), but somehow I found most of the information coming to you

is largely pointless, and the vital feedback, the basic stuff, is just not there.

 

...

 

I'm not sure if I'm being too harsh, I backed this project and I believe in it....

But there's no need to reinvent the wheel sometimes, IE combat feedback was great and worked.
Completely changing it for the sake of being "different" might just be stretching it IMO.

[Frusciante]

First of all I think you are completely right Sensuki, I think most people agree with your video. But I think these features have just not been implemented yet, see this post by Kaz:

 

''We have temporary UI in place to indicate who is engaging who, but it quickly adds a lot of visual clutter so we have it disabled in the beta build. The first step would be to get visual feedback for targeting in the game. (highlighting the current target of the character you have selected or are hovering over)''

http://pedevtracker.azurewebsites.net/Post/View/29666

 

Second about selection circles overlapping, I believe this is a bug so it's not intended to be this way. Look at the list of known issues and then the first point:

 

• ''Pathfinding - We are in the middle of revising the pathfinding system. In the Backer Beta at launch, you may see issues with characters jittering, getting stuck, getting "bottlenecked" between other characters, and overlapping their selection circles with other characters in combat.''

 

So targeting feedback WILL be implemented, selection circles will not overlap in the final version and (not mentioned in this post but still relevant) the auto-attack bug will be fixed. I believe that fixing these three issues will be relatively easy and will greatly improve the feel of the combat.

 

Two other points I would like to mention is the engagement feedback and responsiveness of characters especially when activating abilities. These are also important points that need to be addressed and I have good faith that they will be. 

 

All in all I still believe that the combat in PoE will be at least on par with the IE games based on what I have seen so far. Especially melee engagement, the new sneak system, the separation of health and stamina and the removal of rounds are very good improvements in my book.

 

Please note that I'm not talking about character progression, attributes etc. That is a different problem.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Frusciante

[Sensuki]

Cool, missed that post.

 

Hopefully they use the SAME TARGETING INDICATORS AS THE IE GAMES FOR GLORIOUS IE FEELS .

 

Slightly OT: Combat has some big problems in many areas: Animations, Kinaesthetics and Impact, Movement, Pacing, System Design but I'm hopeful that as the updates come through they can rein in on the issues and make it more enjoyable.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sensuki

[Bester]

When you try to say "mouse" you keep saying "miaouse". It's all the input I have.

[PrimeJunta]

Massive kudos about this, @Sensuki.

 

It's these little, almost unnoticeable things that make the difference between something passable and something really smooth and natural. They ought to take notice.

[Sensuki]

When you try to say "mouse" you keep saying "miaouse". It's all the input I have.

AUSSIE MAYTE

[Linkamus]

Obsidian, PLEASE implement these features. This is part of the reason combat is so frustrating right now.

[ctdavids]

I completely agree with the OP about needing a bit more easy-to-see visual feedback in combat.  I would also add that I feel like i spend an abnormal amount of time squinting at the little bar over my cipher waiting to see when she finishes casting so that I can then make her do something else.  A queueing system would be nice to avoid this.

[Sensuki]

You can issue a command while your character is in recovery time though, you don't have to wait for it.

[Linkamus]

I completely agree with the OP about needing a bit more easy-to-see visual feedback in combat.  I would also add that I feel like i spend an abnormal amount of time squinting at the little bar over my cipher waiting to see when she finishes casting so that I can then make her do something else.  A queueing system would be nice to avoid this.

 Concerning this issue, I created this thread:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67578-combat-suggestion/

[archangel979]

This is great topic. I nominate Sensuki for PoE player of the month :D