"No Bad Builds" a failure in practice?

[Namutree]

 

The system should be understandable and provide good gameplay.

how about chess?

 

I love chess. Have to wonder though, how is chess relevant?

[sparklecat]

I haven't screwed around much yet with the fighter class; is it necessary for her to be a front-line combatant, or is it viable to use ranged weapons and have less survivability?

[CatatonicMan]

I haven't screwed around much yet with the fighter class; is it necessary for her to be a front-line combatant, or is it viable to use ranged weapons and have less survivability?

 

Considering all the combat bugs, I'm not sure it's really possible to say yet.

Edited August 24, 2014 by CatatonicMan

[PrimeJunta]

I haven't screwed around much yet with the fighter class; is it necessary for her to be a front-line combatant, or is it viable to use ranged weapons and have less survivability?

 

Fighters currently don't have great ranged Accuracy, and all of their feats are melee-oriented. So no, not really. The go-to ranged classes are the ranger (obviously), and the cipher. 

 

I posted a suggestion in the General Classes Thread to bump the fighter's base ranged accuracy and add some ranged talents to the mix, to allow that kind of build which currently none of the classes support.

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, create a fighter with below average constitution and tell me how that went. Because he's a front-line fighter, he's going to need constitution. He might not die, but it's not going to be a fun fight and I'm pretty sure that if you play on something other than easy you'll see how "viable" such a build is, unless you count compensating with other characters as a viable build.

 

Dump CON and MIG, pump PER and INT, equip him with a pike, jab from behind somebody else, and make sure to use priests or paladins to buff defenses. Then take extra Knockdowns and make sure to use them a lot. Voilà, interrupter/disabler build.

Edited August 24, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[sophismata]

To make it absolutely clear: My point is that a tanky, x-hundred HP heavy, plate wearing mage is ridiculously overpowered and yet you want to be able to play that. There's a reason WotC introduced armour restrictions and just because you want to be hip and not mainstream doesn't mean that your idea is automatically good. The concept sounds great, but it is flawed as soon as you can create a plate-wearing hp monster with so many offensive and powerful spells that you'd think the USA would invade you.

 

Actually, WotC never introduced such restrictions - they've been in D&D's blood practically since its inception.

 

WotC has removed those restrictions in 5E D&D, though, in part because they are flawed assumptions that don't play out the way you seem to think.

 

 

For example, in 3.5E D&D a plate-wearing mage is overpowered because he's a mage, not because of his armour (which doesn't matter a whit as being a wizard gives you more defences than armour can ever hope to match).

 

 

As far as PoE is concerned, there is already an archetype for a melee magic user / assassin class. The lines between class roles and attribute roles are a little blurred for some.

[Helm]

Obsidian should just deprecate the attribute system and add in a bunch of (class/race restricted) skills and traits so that we can properly build our party. I really think this would improve the game too.

 

The attribute system is currently a complete mess and is causing much more trouble than it is useful. It would take a lot of work to repair too.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Helm

[Rostere]

Obsidian should just deprecate the attribute system and add in a bunch of (class/race restricted) skills and traits so that we can properly build our party. I really think this would improve the game too.

 

The attribute system is currently a complete mess and is causing much more trouble than it is useful. It would take a lot of work to repair too.

 

No, I think they should keep it. It needs to be tweaked though.

[Stun]

I haven't screwed around much yet with the fighter class; is it necessary for her to be a front-line combatant, or is it viable to use ranged weapons and have less survivability?

Until they nerf Rifles, Ranged will always be a more viable combat style for a fighter than melee.

[Helm]

 

Obsidian should just deprecate the attribute system and add in a bunch of (class/race restricted) skills and traits so that we can properly build our party. I really think this would improve the game too.

 

The attribute system is currently a complete mess and is causing much more trouble than it is useful. It would take a lot of work to repair too.

 

No, I think they should keep it. It needs to be tweaked though.

 

I don't think a litle bit of tweaking and balancing is enough to save it.

[Shadenuat]

 

To make it absolutely clear: My point is that a tanky, x-hundred HP heavy, plate wearing mage is ridiculously overpowered and yet you want to be able to play that. There's a reason WotC introduced armour restrictions and just because you want to be hip and not mainstream doesn't mean that your idea is automatically good. The concept sounds great, but it is flawed as soon as you can create a plate-wearing hp monster with so many offensive and powerful spells that you'd think the USA would invade you.

 

Have you tried playing one in P:E?

 

I have. He's not overpowered. He casts half as slow as a "glass cannon" and despite pumping RES, occasionally gets Interrupted. Overall difficulty was not affected much at all.

 

 

I think you played it wrong. Buffed up tankomage gets to 90+ accuracy (best fighter has around 40) and with arcane veil and plate armor is more tanky than any tank.

Level 1 close combat spells are also overpowered, the burning-hands like is level 1 and does more damage than 3d level Fireball.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Shadenuat

[PrimeJunta]

I think you played it wrong. Buffed up tankomage gets to 90+ accuracy (best fighter has around 40) and with arcane veil and plate armor is more tanky than any tank.

Level 1 close combat spells are also overpowered, the burning-hands like is level 1 and does more damage than 3d level Fireball.

 

Not fair to compare short-duration, limited-use buffs (that Accuracy L1 boost, Arcane Veil) with an unbuffed fighter.

 

Also, I'm reporting how it played. So far I've played at least until the ogre fight with, let's see, a barbarian, monk, paladin, chanter (LOL!), ranger, and muscle wizard. Of these only the chanter felt wildly out of line with the others, and Mr. Muscle did not feel dramatically more powerful than BB Wizard.

 

That said, I'm sure the numbers need adjusting. That's what we're here for.

[Longknife]

 

I think you played it wrong. Buffed up tankomage gets to 90+ accuracy (best fighter has around 40) and with arcane veil and plate armor is more tanky than any tank.

Level 1 close combat spells are also overpowered, the burning-hands like is level 1 and does more damage than 3d level Fireball.

 

Not fair to compare short-duration, limited-use buffs (that Accuracy L1 boost, Arcane Veil) with an unbuffed fighter.

 

Also, I'm reporting how it played. So far I've played at least until the ogre fight with, let's see, a barbarian, monk, paladin, chanter (LOL!), ranger, and muscle wizard. Of these only the chanter felt wildly out of line with the others, and Mr. Muscle did not feel dramatically more powerful than BB Wizard.

 

That said, I'm sure the numbers need adjusting. That's what we're here for.

 

 

 

Just curious, why are people calling Chanters broken? I played one briefly but my game crashed and that file didn't get saved. It definitely felt like that fire damage buff was leading to some incredibly quick kills, but beyond that I didn't get much of an opportunity to explore anything else; only briefly got a summon out once.

[PrimeJunta]

The summons. Take that skeleton summoning Invocation. Then play with the sole objective of hanging around in combat without getting anyone killed. Soon you will have an undead army that'll roflstomp over everything.

[Infinitron]

 

[Helm]

Too bad Sawyer's attribute system is worse than the one in D&D. ^^

Edited August 24, 2014 by Helm

[Mayama]

Josh answer

So he basicaly agrees with the majority here.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

Like I've said before: Might seen as an inherent power linked to some brain-n-brawn mix is mighty cool and fresh! "Muscle wizard" isn't very accurate in its attempted mockery.

I really hope Resolve gets to be just as useful and fantasy-like too. The attribute name alone is cool.

[Fearabbit]

Just a quick reminder to anyone who feels betrayed by Obsidian, accuses them of false advertising and says that they basically promised Baldur's Gate 3 and now they do all these changes and *gasp* have ideas of their own.

 

This was the pitch:

 

"Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment."

 

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

 

That's it. That's all they wrote about the influence of IE games on the game design. There was no mention of the attribute system they were going to use or anything like that.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Fearabbit

[Mayama]

Like I've said before: Might seen as an inherent power linked to some brain-n-brawn mix is mighty cool and fresh! "Muscle wizard" isn't very accurate in its attempted mockery.

I really hope Resolve gets to be just as useful and fantasy-like too. The attribute name alone is cool.

 

I guess its our cultural background, show that system to someone with asian heritage and I bet that he would find it perfectly normal that physical strenght = magic power.

[PrimeJunta]

@Infinitron muchas grácias. Looking forward to attribute stat effects being bumped in the next build.

 

(Also LOLed at the dig at D&D.)

[Wintersong]

Too bad Sawyer's attribute system is worse than the one in D&D. ^^

D&D attributes have been around for decades. Long time to polish them (like Charisma reflecting appearence at some point  ).

 

Other RPG systems work without D&D attributes. And work fine.

 

Sawyer's system is still not final and even if it was worse than D&D as a fact, that wouldn't make it automatically bad. It could still be good and someone still find it worse than D&D. Or Mekton Z. Or Anno Domini: Adventus Averni ad Terram. It must make sense in PoE. It must work well for PoE. It must be balanced for PoE. That it may be relatively worse than other systems is irrelevant.

[Giubba]

Just a quick reminder to anyone who feels betrayed by Obsidian, accuses them of false advertising and says that they basically promised Baldur's Gate 3 and now they do all these changes and *gasp* have ideas of their own.

 

This was the pitch:

 

"Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment."

 

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

 

That's it. That's all they wrote about the influence of IE games on the game design. There was no mention of the attribute system they were going to use or anything like that.

 

So they repeat every 3 word titles of game based on D&D and how they will make a new game that take everything that was good with those titles made with D&D and incredible people are pissed when said game doesn't share basicaly nothing with those games made with D&D , ****ING A INCREDIBLE.

 

I was making a post if someone could ask to that **** of Sawyer why they put baldur's gate,icewind dale and torment on the ks page if they thought the core mechanic that moved those game sucked but we all know the answer, they wanted money they got it.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Giubba

[Rostere]

 

 

 

Good to see a shining ray of common sense from Sawyer on this matter.

 

Although I do agree somewhat with the haters who yearns back to D&D in that "attributes" should probably be renamed "soul attributes" or something, to distinguish soul might from physical might and so on. That way we would also further integrate the metaphysical part of the PE setting into character creation.

[sb5]

PrimeJunta: I've asked what a low int character in PE represents. Apparently a well educated gentlemen that lacks the little extra on top. I want to play a bloody retarded character, seriously.

I've assumed the attributes actually reflected anything.