Excellent read on more progressive games

[BruceVC]

A guy whines about some other guys whining. Wow.

 

Bruce pls, just give us atleast an article that has some solid foundation. This crap about unempowered women and other tripe fresh out of classist thought of Karl Marx high is only helping people that want some people to become more equal than others.

 

Its harder than you may realize to find articles that don't across in a way that annoys people more than they encourage debate. Even this article I thought was great but after reading some of the criticism I now realize parts of the message will be lost due to the  writers posting style.

 

But I'll carry on looking and post one when its relevant

[Calax]

 

On the larger discussion, I can't think of many games recently where you're the generic white man rescuing bikini clad babes.

 

Closest one I know of is FarCry 3, and in that game there were far more issues in the game than just the gender politics.

 

The whole " generic white man rescuing bikini clad babes" is more symbolic, I don't think its meant to be taken literally?

 

But even then, "generic white man rescuing babe" isn't as prevalent as he (or Anita Sarkesian(?)) might suggest. Nor nearly as sexist if you change how you view the situation. Or are you going to suggest Tomb raider falls into same category because the lead is chasing down somebody that she cares about (In a non romantic way pervert).

 

This article and others who hold similar ideas only view things from the meta level, when within the story the characters wouldn't actually be "sexist" because they're just trying to save somebody who's important to them, but we yell at the tale because of the perceived stereotypical story is about specifically a GUY saving a GIRL from EVIL [insert bombastic music].

 

I wonder if he (and Anita) consider Bioshock Infinite to be sexist....

[aluminiumtrioxid]

am thinking that such depictions o' racism as typical appear in games actual hurt the cause o' racial equality more than they help. see poor and oppressed __________ being whipped by evil taskmasters and forced to live in functional concentration camps. anybody gonna argue that such is bad? well guess what, that ain't racism--is not racism of today. racism is much more subtle and is far more difficult to end than is slavery. folks can look at typical game racism and say to themselves, "look how far we have come. real racism doesn't exist anymore."

 

 

Gromnir wins the thread.

[Nonek]

 

I think that gaming is one medium that you can get a certain message across and set a certain narrative. Think about just 7 years ago, the thought of homosexual Romance options in games was unheard of. Now Bioware has bravely and correctly changed this design in the interests of inclusivity. Nowadays its really not acceptable to go to most forums and make comments like " gay people must burn in the fires of hell and the only good gay person is a dead gay person"

 

 

Homosexual romances were included in games twenty plus years ago Bruce, try Ultima VII, parts one and two for an example. They were very widely lauded at the time, and the characters in questions weren't shown to be incompetent, idle and unmotivated idiots like those in Bioware games.

 

If I were you though Bruce i'd choose better reading matter, this gentleman is barely literate and your arguments aren't really going to improve if this is your inspiration.

[Gromnir]

"But I want to focus on the last paragraph, I don't want to give undeserved credit to Bioware but I also think we should recognize that Bioware has created a popular and well known "safe " zone for gay gamers where they can discuss Romance options without fear of ridicule or criticism. And this is important as this is part of the discussion around inclusivity in games and gaming websites

 

"This is not the same thing as websites that won't tolerate Homophobia. My experience around gay Romance discussions is that this is one of the most contentious issues that people battle to accept. For example if I go  to any gaming website that is discussing Romance in Bioware games and say "Wow Isabela was hot, nice breasts on that one. I would have loved to tap that ass" the most criticism I would receive is something along the lines of  " that's crude"...or " wow you are objectifying women in a crass way " or something similar

 

"Now take that same example but let me rather raise the fact that Anders was hot then describe how I want to have sex with him and I can guarantee you the criticism will be much more personal and vituperative"

 

soooo, bio has changed things for the better. bruce may now be crude and crass when making appeals to "tap that ass" be it the behind of Theodore or Theodora. congrats to you and bioware for giving us this brave new world. in the past such appeals for a gay "romance" (HA!) would have needed to be couched in a respectful and serious tone? now you may be at least moderate vulgar and pre-pubescent in your discussion o' sex o' any flavor without fear o' censorship or recrimination.

 

...

 

am thinking we coulda' done without such profound social progress.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

 

"But I want to focus on the last paragraph, I don't want to give undeserved credit to Bioware but I also think we should recognize that Bioware has created a popular and well known "safe " zone for gay gamers where they can discuss Romance options without fear of ridicule or criticism. And this is important as this is part of the discussion around inclusivity in games and gaming websites

 

"This is not the same thing as websites that won't tolerate Homophobia. My experience around gay Romance discussions is that this is one of the most contentious issues that people battle to accept. For example if I go  to any gaming website that is discussing Romance in Bioware games and say "Wow Isabela was hot, nice breasts on that one. I would have loved to tap that ass" the most criticism I would receive is something along the lines of  " that's crude"...or " wow you are objectifying women in a crass way " or something similar

 

"Now take that same example but let me rather raise the fact that Anders was hot then describe how I want to have sex with him and I can guarantee you the criticism will be much more personal and vituperative"

 

soooo, bio has changed things for the better. bruce may now be crude and crass when making appeals to "tap that ass" be it the behind of Theodore or Theodora. congrats to you and bioware for giving us this brave new world. in the past such appeals for a gay "romance" (HA!) would have needed to be couched in a respectful and serious tone? now you may be at least moderate vulgar and pre-pubescent in your discussion o' sex o' any flavor without fear o' censorship or recrimination.

 

...

 

am thinking we coulda' done without such profound social progress.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I think you are missing my point or I am clearly missing yours

 

Obviously that's not how I speak or how I would speak about a Romance option. This is just an example to highlight  how a crass comment around heterosexual sexual innuendo would be more acceptable than a crass comment around homosexual sexual innuendo. I would think this would be obvious so epic fail on trying to understand my post. That's a  D- on interpretation Gromnir, D - .....

[Gromnir]

but we already mentioned that you could post as an open homosexual on the boards pre 5 years ago. so being homosexual and asking for homosexual romance were hardly verboten before you became aware. so what has changed since that time? your example is actual indicative o' the change whether you meant to highlight that point or not. being crude and vulgar 'bout sex on the bio boards is now run-o'-the-mill. is ordinary. the great progress made is that openly homosexual posters is not chastised to any greater degree than is the hetero.  so congrats to bio and congrats to bruce. call it a win.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

but we already mentioned that you could post as an open homosexual on the boards pre 5 years ago. so being homosexual and asking for homosexual romance were hardly verboten before you became aware. so what has changed since that time? your example is actual indicative o' the change whether you meant to highlight that point or not. being crude and vulgar 'bout sex on the bio boards is now run-o'-the-mill. is ordinary. the great progress made is that openly homosexual posters is not chastised to any greater degree than is the hetero.  so congrats to bio and congrats to bruce. call it a win.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Obviously you and I have a very different definition of what  crude and vulgar is. I follow the Romance discussions on BSN and only a small number of users would fit your definition of crude and vulgar. For me the discussions are robust, honest  and opinionated and that's a healthy part of a debate. So yes I do call it a win

[Gromnir]

if you say so. we used your example. that kinda thing pops up eventual in every romance thread... more than once is common. in the past, the mods and the community itself woulda' ended such "robust, honest and opinionated" debates before they got started.  actual honest and opinionated debates were rare a problem. again, Gromnir were there more than five years ago. 

 

please keep in mind that there is a particular amusement for us in this context given our history with bioware. am thinking that it is somewhat obvious that Gromnir is a contentious poster. if you honestly believe that the biowarians in 1999 and 2000 would have censored or hindered polite and earnest openly homosexual posters while at same time finding Gromnir funny and/or harmless 'nuff that they were willing to include a character based 'pon our board personality (sorta) in one o' their games, then you is clear deluding self. oh, and we were arguable more adversarial back in 2000.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Blarghagh]

To be fair, the character they included as you was a paranoid dictator. Just sayin'.

[Valmy]

Still think he came off better than Lanfear hehe.

[Orogun01]

Upon re-reading the thread's title a question emerges; what's so damn progressive about equal representation?
Could someone explain why is it that ideas that were penned centuries ago and have no direct benefit towards the advancement of the species (they do have other benefits) are considered progressive? Or is it that progressive has come to mean something different in recent years?

[BruceVC]

if you say so. we used your example. that kinda thing pops up eventual in every romance thread... more than once is common. in the past, the mods and the community itself woulda' ended such "robust, honest and opinionated" debates before they got started.  actual honest and opinionated debates were rare a problem. again, Gromnir were there more than five years ago. 

 

please keep in mind that there is a particular amusement for us in this context given our history with bioware. am thinking that it is somewhat obvious that Gromnir is a contentious poster. if you honestly believe that the biowarians in 1999 and 2000 would have censored or hindered polite and earnest openly homosexual posters while at same time finding Gromnir funny and/or harmless 'nuff that they were willing to include a character based 'pon our board personality (sorta) in one o' their games, then you is clear deluding self. oh, and we were arguable more adversarial back in 2000.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Fair enough, I don't have any personal insight into BSN back then so I shouldn't argue

To be fair, the character they included as you was a paranoid dictator. Just sayin'.

 

Wow that is impressive, so even the personality and mannerisms were the same. That's much harder to do than it appears

[Gromnir]

To be fair, the character they included as you was a paranoid dictator. Just sayin'.

actually, we had assumed we would be included as a flatulent xvart or somesuch. the fact that we were included as a "paranoid" dictator who were proven ultimately correct, were far better treatment than we expected.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps amentep were a mod from time to time. might be best to ask him if there were a biowarian or black isle directive to stifle openly homosexual posters.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

Upon re-reading the thread's title a question emerges; what's so damn progressive about equal representation?

Could someone explain why is it that ideas that were penned centuries ago and have no direct benefit towards the advancement of the species (they do have other benefits) are considered progressive? Or is it that progressive has come to mean something different in recent years?

 

Good question, the whole point around progression is to show how we as a society have evolved and how we see each other as equal and should be treated equally where applicable and logical

[Amentep]

ps amentep were a mod from time to time. might be best to ask him if there were a biowarian or black isle directive to stifle openly homosexual posters.

Not while I was a mod (doubt it'd be different when I wasn't a mod).

[Monte Carlo]

'Progressive.'

 

I could wax lyrical about the Left's appropriation of certain words, and their mastery of semiotics, but I shant.

 

Suffice it to say I refuse to play their game. They say 'progressive' I say 'Khmer Rouge.' They say 'redistribution' I say 'theft.' They say 'Social Justice' I say 'make everyone equally miserable.'

 

The culture warriors lost the war in 1989, my friends, when their wall came down. But in academia and journalism they're still up there, fighting a brave rearguard action.

[Fearabbit]

Hmm, the article doesn't tell me anything new, I don't like how the author mocks other people's opinions and taste in games, and I think there are some problematic notions in there as well.

 

For example, the author talks about the backlash a game gets when it gets "called out" on its racism, and how that's not censorship but some sort of righteous reaction. (But his example is an article about a game where a samurai says "herro" instead of "hello", and for some reason that's super racist even though the character was written by an Asian guy who actually had trouble with the English language himself.)

I just think that's super wrong... yeah it's not censorship, but if this type of scandal is successful and the studio has to react to it, then it's something very close. The studio will then just start making boring, politically correct characters. That can't be the goal. Sure I'm against racism, but... stop with the outrage, it's not helping.

[BruceVC]

'Progressive.'

 

I could wax lyrical about the Left's appropriation of certain words, and their mastery of semiotics, but I shant.

 

Suffice it to say I refuse to play their game. They say 'progressive' I say 'Khmer Rouge.' They say 'redistribution' I say 'theft.' They say 'Social Justice' I say 'make everyone equally miserable.'

 

The culture warriors lost the war in 1989, my friends, when their wall came down. But in academia and journalism they're still up there, fighting a brave rearguard action.

 

Monte that is a very myopic and cynical view of progression and I'm glad your definition isn't the acceptable one, it would be as depressing as hell

 

But I did laugh at the " make everyone equally miserable" 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Bruce, by your own admission you like frequenting strip joints and salivating over digital RPG babes.

 

OTOH when it comes to White Knighting you are the most insufferable bore, a sort of tireless missionary for moribund political correctness. Can you explain the ying and yang of these two positions? Are they linked?

If I had to take a guess, Bruce is using SJWing as an attempt to attract women. Wouldn't do that myself, but sometimes you have to work with what you've got.

[Leferd]

 

To be fair, the character they included as you was a paranoid dictator. Just sayin'.

 

actually, we had assumed we would be included as a flatulent xvart or somesuch. the fact that we were included as a "paranoid" dictator who were proven ultimately correct, were far better treatment than we expected.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps amentep were a mod from time to time. might be best to ask him if there were a biowarian or black isle directive to stifle openly homosexual posters.

I kinda think that Dave was trolling you when he quoted you instead with "HAH! Good Fun!"

[Gfted1]

Im going with Majek on this one.

[BruceVC]

Im going with Majek on this one.

 

 

Ah Gfted1, my stalwart companion in the thankless job of raising SJ issues and encouraging debate on said topics, its like I always say " a SJ discussion is not a SJ discussion until you have added your voice of support to mine " 

[Blarghagh]

I wonder if this article would have gone over better if someone else posted it.

 

Probably not. The article was pretty badly written and illogical.

[BruceVC]

 

Bruce, by your own admission you like frequenting strip joints and salivating over digital RPG babes.

 

OTOH when it comes to White Knighting you are the most insufferable bore, a sort of tireless missionary for moribund political correctness. Can you explain the ying and yang of these two positions? Are they linked?

If I had to take a guess, Bruce is using SJWing as an attempt to attract women. Wouldn't do that myself, but sometimes you have to work with what you've got.

 

 

Funny enough most my lady friends don't quite understand the importance of SJ issues. But there are some who do and when I meet a lady for the first time I test the waters to see if they are interested in these types of issues. But a SJ connection is a good connection IMO