Update 80: State of the Project - From Alpha to Beta

[Flow]

This is also something I do not understand. If this is so NDA heavy and backers do not get to see much of it anyway. Why are these updates are hidden anyway from the public?

 

They are? You don't even have to register to read threads on this site. Or most (all?) the PoE updates on Kickstarter's site.

[Bryy]

 

This is also something I do not understand. If this is so NDA heavy and backers do not get to see much of it anyway. Why are these updates are hidden anyway from the public?

 

They are? You don't even have to register to read threads on this site. Or most (all?) the PoE updates on Kickstarter's site.

 

Pretty much this.

[Greensleeve]

Am I the only one who caught that Darji said he didn't like reading? 

 

Hmm... What was it Josh said about this game again? Like, time after time again... I can't quite remember... Something about reading? That it wouldn't be required for this game? Yeah, that must have been it. Darji is going to be a perfect fit!

Edited June 17, 2014 by Greensleeve

[Darji]

Am I the only one who caught that Darji said he didn't like reading? 

 

Hmm... What was it Josh said about this game again? Like, time after time again... I can't quite remember... Something about reading? That it wouldn't be required for this game? Yeah, that must have been it. Darji is going to be a perfect fit!

To get this straight. I do not mind reading in games and I do love long dialogues. However there is a difference between  game dialogue with options to respond etc and stale press previews. These are the ones I do not read or care about. 

 

As for the kickstarter one: My bad. I am always logged into kickstarter so I never noticed this. I thought this was the standard. I apologize for that.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Darji

[Lephys]

And you haven't even watched the video? WTF is wrong with you. You're arguing and excusing these journalists in your first post by saying things like 'to be fair' and now you haven't even watched the video. Seriously, instead of jumping into threads and debating against people without any knowledge of what's being discussed, at least watch the video before jumping to your usual arguing against forum posters stance.

All I did was point out a factual difference between Kickstarter projects and big publisher-funded/driven projects (games, to be specific). I can't help it if you're somehow directly attributing that to those specific journalists in a video I very explicitly admitted to not-having watched yet.

 

The only reason I mentioned not-watching the video was because I knew you guys were already pretty deep in discussing that video, specifically, and if I didn't clarify, it would be assumed that I was jumping in on the directly-about-the-video sub-discussion. Which I was not.

 

Also... my "usual arguing against forum posters stance"? Who else would I be arguing against on a forum? People who aren't posting on it? As fun as it sounds, I don't believe I've ever directed arguments on here at random IP addresses across the internet.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Pointing out Kickstarter and AAA funded games is irrelevant, a red herring, lame excuse and basically deflecting what amounts to some journalists in a video who are biased towards AAA games and don't care about Kickstarter games. Instead of them coming out and saying, 'we don't care', they give lame duck excuses. Especially when the rest of the game reporting world can't wait to report these Kickstarter games as is the case with Pillars. In fact, we've seen reporters who are eager and itching to report on Pillars. eg. Escapist Magazine, PC World.

 

So why is it that a lot of reporters, a lot of websites over the last two years and current gaming journalists can report and want to report on Kickstarter games and yet these guys in the video says it's 'weird' and 'all too hard'? It doesn't make sense that the industry can report on Kickstarter games and then we see one group of reporters in a video who finds it all too hard and one of them says they're glad they didn't have to cover any Kickstarter games. I'd rather take the industry side's track record on this one.

[Fearabbit]

Hiro, why do you get so worked up about these journalists? You don't like their stance on Kickstarter projects, so just don't go to their site? Personally I think that Rock Paper Shotgun is pretty good when it comes to coverage of new exciting Kickstarter projects. They've covered (just off the top of my head) Torment: Tides of Numenera, Pillars of Eternity, Witchmarsh... and they've already given first impressions of Wasteland 2 and Divinity: Original Sin (which were very positive).

 

I mean, what's your general point that you're trying to make by complaining about these four journalists? Others don't feel that way about Kickstarter. If you think that Gamespot's journalists are hacks, don't go to Gamespot and find other, more reliable news sources.

[Lephys]

*super suspicious glare*... Obviously, Fearabbit, you're on the journalists' side, as well!

 

*hisssss* o_O

Edited June 17, 2014 by Lephys

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Hiro, why do you get so worked up about these journalists? You don't like their stance on Kickstarter projects, so just don't go to their site? Personally I think that Rock Paper Shotgun is pretty good when it comes to coverage of new exciting Kickstarter projects. They've covered (just off the top of my head) Torment: Tides of Numenera, Pillars of Eternity, Witchmarsh... and they've already given first impressions of Wasteland 2 and Divinity: Original Sin (which were very positive).

 

I mean, what's your general point that you're trying to make by complaining about these four journalists? Others don't feel that way about Kickstarter. If you think that Gamespot's journalists are hacks, don't go to Gamespot and find other, more reliable news sources.

 

I don't go to their site. It was Osvir who linked the video.

 

How about asking the question, why do people defend these hacks? I called them out pages ago and all I've had since is people like Elerond and Lephys argue against me.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Fearabbit]

I don't go to their site. It was Osvir who linked the video.

 

How about asking the question, why do people defend these hacks? I called them out pages ago and all I've had since is people like Elerond and Lephys argue against me.

 

I didn't think that you go to their site. But that's exactly it, why does it bother you so much what they think if you otherwise don't care for their opinion?

 

As to your question, I don't think people actually defended these particular journalists. Lephys relishes in these kind of abstract, philosophical debates - he's not one for taking a specific example and basing his argument on that, at least that's the impression I get when I read his posts. So he wasn't talking about these journalists, he was talking about the general problems one might have as a journalist when it comes to covering projects that are very open about their progress.

 

Basically, the problem was that you wanted to talk about a specific example and extrapolate from that, while Lephys didn't care about the specific example and went straight for the general problem.

 

Elerond didn't think their statements were problematic, which is not exactly the same as defending them. And I agree, but mostly because I simply don't care about what these journalists have to say. Watching that video, I decided that they're not the kind of journalists I'd rely on when it comes to game reviews and news, not even because of their statements regarding Kickstarter projects but just in general, I didn't like them, they didn't seem particularly clever to me. And that's it.

 

I can totally understand if you watch that video and go "how are these people gaming journalists!", I think it's a valid reaction... but I wouldn't extrapolate from it, and I wouldn't get worked up if people disagreed with my assessment of their qualifications.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Fearabbit

[Malekith]

 

Okay, we got it. Darji, you want gameplay videos, and you don't want them in a month or so, you want them now.

Noted. The developers think that would be a bad idea, some people here agree with that. You have your arguments why you think it's a good idea to show videos now, we consider these arguments invalid due to a number of reasons (personally I'm just not interested in half-finished gameplay, I'm much more interested in a polished and awesome trailer).

 

Same goes for exclusive press material. You think it's unfair that we don't get to see it first, and we think it makes sense for Obsidian to do it this way (even if we are just as envious of those pesky journalists as you are).

 

With this conclusion in mind, maybe we can stop the back-and-forth now, since it won't actually change a thing.

 

 

That is not quite right. 

 

First of all I want to see progression. And video material shows this the best. Honestly and sadly I do not really care about Obsidians updates because I just do not want to read a lot of stuff. I look at the pictures and designs. And say yeah great. And move on. sometimes with classes explanation for example I will ready the stuff but that's it. With Divinity I actually watch their videos even pause them to see what has changed and how. I get really exciting and my friends too since I link these videos  and tell them about it. Result was 5 people bought the game on steam. Success. Obsidian I can not show the stuff to them because they do not care much right now. With no video.  There is no real excitement here. 

 

As for the press thing: I am not really jealous I am disappointed because I have seen kickstarter projects differently than publisher games and I hoped about more transparency. I also think it is a huge mistake not only to show it to the press since written media on the internet is either dead or dying. And that it was just a really bad marketing move for a game no one besides backers and hardcore fans do not even know exist because there is no material.  no one reads the RPS previews. 

 

But yeah let us conclude with saying. I am disappointed by their handling and that I most likely will not back anything again from obsidian but rather buy it at launch. 

 

Josh Sawyer: If you don't like to read, don't play this game.

[Lephys]

Josh Sawyer: If you don't like to read, don't play this game.

Haha. I was about to joke about seeing that new video footage for that upcoming book. Then I remembered, that kind of really happens. They're called movies.

 

That's actually a pretty good example, though. Just because more people see the film than read the book doesn't mean there's no market for books anymore.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Lephys

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I didn't think that you go to their site. But that's exactly it, why does it bother you so much what they think if you otherwise don't care for their opinion?

 

As to your question, I don't think people actually defended these particular journalists. Lephys relishes in these kind of abstract, philosophical debates - he's not one for taking a specific example and basing his argument on that, at least that's the impression I get when I read his posts. So he wasn't talking about these journalists, he was talking about the general problems one might have as a journalist when it comes to covering projects that are very open about their progress.

 

Basically, the problem was that you wanted to talk about a specific example and extrapolate from that, while Lephys didn't care about the specific example and went straight for the general problem.

 

Elerond didn't think their statements were problematic, which is not exactly the same as defending them. And I agree, but mostly because I simply don't care about what these journalists have to say. Watching that video, I decided that they're not the kind of journalists I'd rely on when it comes to game reviews and news, not even because of their statements regarding Kickstarter projects but just in general, I didn't like them, they didn't seem particularly clever to me. And that's it.

 

I can totally understand if you watch that video and go "how are these people gaming journalists!", I think it's a valid reaction... but I wouldn't extrapolate from it, and I wouldn't get worked up if people disagreed with my assessment of their qualifications.

 

 

I gave an opinion from the start saying these guys don't know how to write about a game due to the type of funding and they should get with the times. The funding isn't relevant.

 

Elerond and Lephys did defend these journalists with words like 'not reading updates to these games' and 'to be fair'. Firstly you don't need to read updates for the game to write an article about the game and you don't need to take the side of hacks and give a contrary argument.

 

And Lephys relishes in these abstract arguments? For pages and pages? Not talking about specific examples? So there's really no substance to his posts. Anyone can argue and disagree on abstraction with superfluous posts. Lephys didn't want to talk about the specific example that's been talked about for pages and talk about some general problem? What general problem is that? There's no general problem. The industry doesn't have a problem reporting these games.

 

Elerond proceeded to say things like "it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself". Irrelevant as I've pointed out many times. Or is Elerond talking in the abstract? Who knows. Maybe you can explain what Elerond is talking about in this context.

 

And I'm not getting worked up. I'm quite calm and relaxed. I do find it funny that you think I'm all worked up over this. Also, maybe ask the question to yourself, why does it bother you to jump into a debate between Lephys and myself and proceed to explain Elerond's and Lephys' posts and then ask me why I'm getting worked up? Perhaps ask why is Lephys debating page after page on some abstract meaningless point that has nothing to do with the gaming media industry as a whole.

[Sarex]

I didn't think that you go to their site. But that's exactly it, why does it bother you so much what they think if you otherwise don't care for their opinion?

 

As to your question, I don't think people actually defended these particular journalists. Lephys relishes in these kind of abstract, philosophical debates - he's not one for taking a specific example and basing his argument on that, at least that's the impression I get when I read his posts. So he wasn't talking about these journalists, he was talking about the general problems one might have as a journalist when it comes to covering projects that are very open about their progress.

 

Basically, the problem was that you wanted to talk about a specific example and extrapolate from that, while Lephys didn't care about the specific example and went straight for the general problem.

 

Elerond didn't think their statements were problematic, which is not exactly the same as defending them. And I agree, but mostly because I simply don't care about what these journalists have to say. Watching that video, I decided that they're not the kind of journalists I'd rely on when it comes to game reviews and news, not even because of their statements regarding Kickstarter projects but just in general, I didn't like them, they didn't seem particularly clever to me. And that's it.

 

I can totally understand if you watch that video and go "how are these people gaming journalists!", I think it's a valid reaction... but I wouldn't extrapolate from it, and I wouldn't get worked up if people disagreed with my assessment of their qualifications.

 

Dude, this is a forum. You discuss things. He expressed his opinion, other people responded to it, he responded back. That is pretty much what you do on a forum.

 

I would have asked why he even responded to those two, as it is pretty much like banging your head against a wall, but less productive...though that is another matter.

[Lephys]

And Lephys relishes in these abstract arguments? For pages and pages? Not talking about specific examples? So there's really no substance to his posts. Anyone can argue and disagree on abstraction with superfluous posts. Lephys didn't want to talk about the specific example that's been talked about for pages and talk about some general problem? What general problem is that? There's no general problem. The industry doesn't have a problem reporting these games.

By all means, you're welcome to your opinion. I'm not sure time is being well spent insisting that everyone else share it, or being outraged that someone could possibly have thoughts and perspectives you consider to be insubstantial or useless. 99.9% of what I say is "for what it's worth" content, and I say as much, quite often. Arguing about what it's actually worth is not really on my schedule. I can tell you what I think it's worth, and then you can go from there. And if you disagree, you disagree. More power to you.

 

You suggested a lack of difference between coverage of non-Kickstarter games, and Kickstarter games, and I pointed out a difference. For what it was worth. Do with it as you like. You're not hurting my feelings. But don't waste everyone else's time with sheer outrage at my perceived idiocy.

 

I would have asked why he even responded to those two, as it is pretty much like banging your head against a wall, but less productive...though that is another matter.

If you're comparing me to a wall, then I'll take that as a compliment. Walls never ask anyone to bang their heads against them, and serve quite a number of other purposes.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Lephys

[Elerond]

 

 

I didn't think that you go to their site. But that's exactly it, why does it bother you so much what they think if you otherwise don't care for their opinion?

 

As to your question, I don't think people actually defended these particular journalists. Lephys relishes in these kind of abstract, philosophical debates - he's not one for taking a specific example and basing his argument on that, at least that's the impression I get when I read his posts. So he wasn't talking about these journalists, he was talking about the general problems one might have as a journalist when it comes to covering projects that are very open about their progress.

 

Basically, the problem was that you wanted to talk about a specific example and extrapolate from that, while Lephys didn't care about the specific example and went straight for the general problem.

 

Elerond didn't think their statements were problematic, which is not exactly the same as defending them. And I agree, but mostly because I simply don't care about what these journalists have to say. Watching that video, I decided that they're not the kind of journalists I'd rely on when it comes to game reviews and news, not even because of their statements regarding Kickstarter projects but just in general, I didn't like them, they didn't seem particularly clever to me. And that's it.

 

I can totally understand if you watch that video and go "how are these people gaming journalists!", I think it's a valid reaction... but I wouldn't extrapolate from it, and I wouldn't get worked up if people disagreed with my assessment of their qualifications.

 

 

I gave an opinion from the start saying these guys don't know how to write about a game due to the type of funding and they should get with the times. The funding isn't relevant.

 

Elerond and Lephys did defend these journalists with words like 'not reading updates to these games' and 'to be fair'. Firstly you don't need to read updates for the game to write an article about the game and you don't need to take the side of hacks and give a contrary argument.

 

And Lephys relishes in these abstract arguments? For pages and pages? Not talking about specific examples? So there's really no substance to his posts. Anyone can argue and disagree on abstraction with superfluous posts. Lephys didn't want to talk about the specific example that's been talked about for pages and talk about some general problem? What general problem is that? There's no general problem. The industry doesn't have a problem reporting these games.

 

Elerond proceeded to say things like "it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself". Irrelevant as I've pointed out many times. Or is Elerond talking in the abstract? Who knows. Maybe you can explain what Elerond is talking about in this context.

 

And I'm not getting worked up. I'm quite calm and relaxed. I do find it funny that you think I'm all worked up over this. Also, maybe ask the question to yourself, why does it bother you to jump into a debate between Lephys and myself and proceed to explain Elerond's and Lephys' posts and then ask me why I'm getting worked up? Perhaps ask why is Lephys debating page after page on some abstract meaningless point that has nothing to do with the gaming media industry as a whole.

 

 

I said that I can understand why gaming journalist can find it more challenging to cover KS games than games that come from more traditional ways.

I also said that it can be difficult to find something to write about KS game for those that actually would be interested to read about, as they probably have heard all/most of information that you have about game directly from developers, and repeating old information don't bring many readers and your time is better spent to cover something else. 

 

But as you like to put words in my mouth (as I never said this or even implied this "it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself"), I will let you talk this with yourself as I plainly obvious that my point of view do not interest you at all, as you create instead of it fictional point of view that you argue against.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I said that I can understand why gaming journalist can find it more challenging to cover KS games than games that come from more traditional ways.

I also said that it can be difficult to find something to write about KS game for those that actually would be interested to read about, as they probably have heard all/most of information that you have about game directly from developers, and repeating old information don't bring many readers and your time is better spent to cover something else. 

 

But as you like to put words in my mouth (as I never said this or even implied this "it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself"), I will let you talk this with yourself as I plainly obvious that my point of view do not interest you at all, as you create instead of it fictional point of view that you argue against.

 

 

Elerond. tsk tsk tsk.

 

You did say 'it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself'. Here's your quote.

 

Also, as I've said many times, the target audience would be people who don't know about the game. In fact, it would be easier to write a review for a Kickstarter game because you have a wealth of information with the Kickstarter updates to write an in depth review to people who have never heard of the game. Not the opposite.

[Fearabbit]

And I'm not getting worked up. I'm quite calm and relaxed. I do find it funny that you think I'm all worked up over this. Also, maybe ask the question to yourself, why does it bother you to jump into a debate between Lephys and myself and proceed to explain Elerond's and Lephys' posts and then ask me why I'm getting worked up? Perhaps ask why is Lephys debating page after page on some abstract meaningless point that has nothing to do with the gaming media industry as a whole.

 

 

Well in this thread you don't seem very calm, it seems quite important to you to show the people that these journalists are hacks. And I'm asking, what's the point, and you still didn't answer.

 

As to my personal agenda: I just felt that there are some misunderstandings happening. I was trying to explain what Lephys is doing and where that differs from what you're doing. I don't like discussions where people talk past each other without knowing it. The least I can do is to point it out. And maybe try and mediate a bit.

 

Looking at Lephys' posts, I don't see where they are idiotic and wasting time. I mean, you started a discussion about journalists and Kickstarter projects, and he gave his opinion, which is a more general (if "abstract" to you is negatively connotated) opinion than the one you presented, but a valid one nonetheless. And I think there's something to be said about trying to find an answer that is general.

[Elerond]

 

 

I said that I can understand why gaming journalist can find it more challenging to cover KS games than games that come from more traditional ways.

I also said that it can be difficult to find something to write about KS game for those that actually would be interested to read about, as they probably have heard all/most of information that you have about game directly from developers, and repeating old information don't bring many readers and your time is better spent to cover something else. 

 

But as you like to put words in my mouth (as I never said this or even implied this "it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself"), I will let you talk this with yourself as I plainly obvious that my point of view do not interest you at all, as you create instead of it fictional point of view that you argue against.

 

 

Elerond. tsk tsk tsk.

 

You did say 'it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself'. Here's your quote.

 

Also, as I've said many times, the target audience would be people who don't know about the game. In fact, it would be easier to write a review for a Kickstarter game because you have a wealth of information with the Kickstarter updates to write an in depth review to people who have never heard of the game. Not the opposite.

 

 

"Writing article that covers same things what game's most recent kickstarter/forum/blog/etc. update covered is easy job, but it don't bring any readers and if you haven't followed updates by yourself then interviews with developers in events like E3 can easily produce ton of information that developers told in their blog over year ago"

 

If you don't cut what I said in meaningless sentences then you will find out that there is context for those sentences that I said.

 

But I make it easier for you. 

 

"Writing article that covers same things what game's most recent kickstarter/forum/blog/etc. update covered is easy job, but it don't bring any readers"

With this sentence I mean that it is easy copy and paste what developers have told in their update about game, but I don't believe that it will actually bring any readers.

 

"and if you haven't followed updates by yourself then interviews with developers in events like E3 can easily produce ton of information that developers told in their blog over year ago"

 

With this sentence I mean that if journalist is not familiar with game and don't therefore have any knowledge what developers have previously told about their game it is highly probably that they will produce content that don't have any new information about game.

 

There is context that you decided some reason in your post cut out, and ask what it is. Which is in my opinion same as creating your own point of view which you want argue against.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Elerond

[Lephys]

To be fair, just because the difference in transparency with Kickstarter games doesn't prevent journalists from writing about them doesn't mean it's irrelevant. If game journalism is going to be the sole source of information about a game, I'd say that factors into the decision-making process when it comes to covering something. It's simple supply and demand. If there are two gas stations at an intersection already, maybe you don't build yours there. Maybe you pick a different intersection.

 

If X% of people already have free access to some information, and your job entails presenting people with information they don't already have, then it's probably worth considering how many people the information you're presenting is going to actually benefit. The demand for that info, essentially.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

It is irrelevant. Does a reporter on TV or a newspaper or a magazine or a website take into consideration what the funding model of something is when they report something? Do they think, 'most people might know about this so there's no point reporting it'? 

 

You seem to be forgetting, or maybe you just don't know, that reporting something is not just about reporting a game. It's also a part of marketing and reinforcing that product/service to the consumer. For new people, it's something new. For consumers who already know about the product, it's reinforcement.

 

Oh that's right, you're talking abstract nonsense again. Silly me.

[Silent Winter]

 

Josh Sawyer: If you don't like to read, don't play this game.

Haha. I was about to joke about seeing that new video footage for that upcoming book. Then I remembered, that kind of really happens. They're called movies.

 

I've actually seen a few 'video footage' trailers for books now (I think they call them 'atmosphere trailers' and are generally rips of a few different movies - search for 'Brandon Sanderson Mistborn' on youtube as an example).

Wow, I seem to have nothing on-topic to contribute in this thread beyond my initial "Great update, thanks "

[Lephys]

It is irrelevant. Does a reporter on TV or a newspaper or a magazine or a website take into consideration what the funding model of something is when they report something? Do they think, 'most people might know about this so there's no point reporting it'?

Wow...

 

Yeah, far be it from the news to worry about ratings when they report stuff.

 

That's why all political office candidates get equal news coverage, and even the mundane, non-controversial crimes get reported.

 

What world do you live in?

Edited June 18, 2014 by Lephys

[Hiro Protagonist II]

But I make it easier for you. 

 

"Writing article that covers same things what game's most recent kickstarter/forum/blog/etc. update covered is easy job, but it don't bring any readers"

With this sentence I mean that it is easy copy and paste what developers have told in their update about game, but I don't believe that it will actually bring any readers.

 

"and if you haven't followed updates by yourself then interviews with developers in events like E3 can easily produce ton of information that developers told in their blog over year ago"

 

With this sentence I mean that if journalist is not familiar with game and don't therefore have any knowledge what developers have previously told about their game it is highly probably that they will produce content that don't have any new information about game. 

 

So if anyone including myself goes to a gaming website and the website has copied and pasted something from a dev blog. No one will read it? It won't bring any readers? Even those readers who have never heard of the game before?

 

Wow, that's amazing. You're right. Whenever I go to a gaming website and see a game I've never seen before, I don't read it because it's obviously been copied and pasted from a dev blog. Amazing logic there.

 

And if journalists aren't familiar with the game, then here's an easy question for you. When journalists do write about it, how does that affect readers who have never heard of the game before?

Edited June 18, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Lephys]

I can just see the reporters saying, oh we better not report this specific news story, this court case with this high profile criminal, because the funding model of this story is different to this other story, the robbery that happened this afternoon. So we'll go with the robbery because that has a different funding model. 

I'm glad you find yourself amusing, but I said nothing about a funding model. The news doesn't cover everything that could possibly be reported. They prioritize, and other stuff just never gets reported. That's a fact.