Ongoing discussion of Ukraine

[Walsingham]

Why am I not surprised the pro-Ukranian government side is almost salivating at hoping there are no survivors and everyone is dead.

Sickening :/

 

WTF are you talking about?

[BruceVC]

 

Why am I not surprised the pro-Ukranian government side is almost salivating at hoping there are no survivors and everyone is dead.

Sickening :/

 

WTF are you talking about?

 

 

He seems to be confusing the fact that myself and others said "there were no survivors from the crash "to us saying "we are glad all those people died because it does make Russia look bad "..

[Walsingham]

Ah. Seems a bit weird. Because it's the anti-Ukraine masked fethwit - oby - who has been wetting himself over deaths here.

 

Supporting the elected government of Ukraine seems logically against armed militias hardly seems pro-death.

[Fighter]

Supporting the elected government of Ukraine seems logically against armed militias hardly seems pro-death.

 

Yanukovich was elected too and there were armed people amongst the protesters.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Fighter

[Tagaziel]

Yanukovich was elected too and there were armed people amongst the protesters.

Not this **** again. If you don't see the fundamental difference between popular protests aiming to preserve Ukraine and a foreign-funded separatist insurgency that recently murdered three hundred people, there's nothing to discuss here.

 

But the question I posed to you all was... how did the government knew that so fast after the incident. I mean, sure, now it seems "doh", but just 15 minutes after a plane crashed you already knew it was a warmissile, not a crash, with these effects.

I find it suspicious... you don't?

No, because we live in 2014. A civilian airliner suddenly disappearing from radars at a 10 km altitude followed by a crash and plane being strewn over 15 kilometers are obvious events that are easily connected. Planes don't randomly plummet out of 10 km and there were no reports of any problems on board the plane before contact was lost.

 

If it was a conspiracy, no one would make such an elemental mistake.

 

It's the equilevant of someone going after the first plane in the WTC "it was obviously hijacked and flew into there" rather than "what a tragic accident" and then the realisation that it was an attack only after the second plane.

NYC wasn't an active war zone.

 

Still waiting for the reason why they shot down a plane in 2001, since the obvious belief here that since they had no valid reason to shoot down the plane they actually couldn't have shot down the plane. Which raises the question; "what reason did they have back then if they can only shoot down planes they want"

Of course, it's a stupid theory... but one several of you have oppered as "proof" that it couldn't have been the government.

The incident from 13 years ago has no relevancy to the incident discussed here.

 

Reality is, both sides had no reason for it, we just need to know who made the shot. The resistance could have seen it for an Ukraine military craft, but likewise Ukrain could have seen it as "Russian intrusion" and shot them down on that. What better way to prove Russia's involvement (which I still want prove of) than a downed fighter on Ukranian territory?

So yeah, both sides can have made the fluke, it's not automatically the "pro-Russian militants."

Reality is, Ukraine doesn't have any kind of motive for it, especially since unlike the insurgents, the Ukrainian military has access to equipment that allows them to tell apart a civilian airliner and a Russian military aircraft. The insurgents, on the other hand, have a history of shooting down aircraft and have access to hardware that can be used to shoot down such an airliner. The fact that the insurgents are looting the crash site and destroying evidence that could implicate them is also pretty damning.

 

Really, read something else than RT.

[Fighter]

Not this **** again. If you don't see the fundamental difference between popular protests aiming to preserve Ukraine and a foreign-funded separatist insurgency that recently murdered three hundred people, there's nothing to discuss here.

 

Aimed to preserve Ukraine?

 

It was not a popular protest. It was a western Ukrainian protest. If it was a popular protest the country would not be divided now. And before you say it, no Russia couldn't create something in a month that wasn't already there.

 

When nationalists capture police stations in west Ukraine and take guns and go freely waving them around, controlling the streets, controlling government buildings. No one says a word. People in the East have been questioning this for weeks before any insurgency started. And now I present the legal combat units of the legally elected democratic Ukrainian government that those unlawful easterners should stop fighting and submit to, eh? Because who would ever resist an official Ukrainian interior ministry battalion formed from nationalists with their copy cat nazi symbol. Totally illegal to fight them.

 

 

 

oreign-funded separatist insurgency that recently murdered three hundred people.

 

 

Yeah they probably did and it's horrible. But unless it was deliberate don't imply someone's got the moral high ground there. Ukraine committed worse atrocities by now. And so did US and Russia or anyone who's been in a serious war. That Iranian Airbus in 1988 comes to mind.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Fighter

[Hassat Hunter]

Supporting the elected government of Ukraine seems logically against armed militias hardly seems pro-death.

You seem to have missed the government sending out the army on their own soil, and the many civilian casualties they made during their operation.

I can savely say the Ukranian government killed more Ukranians than the militia did... 

Not this **** again. If you don't see the fundamental difference between popular protests aiming to preserve Ukraine and a foreign-funded separatist insurgency that recently murdered three hundred people, there's nothing to discuss here.

Seems populair to me.

Also, I am, how many months later now, still waiting for proof of that aledged "foreign-funded" theory. Funny seeing how they could prove the rebels shot down the plane apparently within 24 hours... but this... they couldn't have done yet. Makes sense, right?

 

Also, again, it's not proven yet which side killed 300 citizens. But apparently facts wont stop accusations. Who needs facts right? Only get in the way like in Iraq, and what a glorious victory that was... *cough*

No, because we live in 2014. A civilian airliner suddenly disappearing from radars at a 10 km altitude followed by a crash and plane being strewn over 15 kilometers are obvious events that are easily connected. Planes don't randomly plummet out of 10 km and there were no reports of any problems on board the plane before contact was lost.

Considering we can determine causes of planecrashes so easily in 2014, care to tell use where MH370 is, and what happened to it?

Right, we don't know that after months still... also in 2014.

NYC wasn't an active war zone.

Usually events in warzones are less clear and certain than outside, due to, you know, the entire conflict going on.

Especially with the outdated equipment Ukraine has.

The incident from 13 years ago has no relevancy to the incident discussed here.

It does if people throw out arguments as "Ukranian Government can't have done it, since they have no reason to!"

And how can a civ plane being shot down before NOT be related to a civ plane being shot down now? Really!

Ukranian Military's gear is outdated, their training sucks, their communication is atrocious... they primarily exist now of civilians recruited to the cause and mercenaries.

More than enough fuel for a complete disasterous error, if you ask me.

Reality is, Ukraine doesn't have any kind of motive for it, especially since unlike the insurgents, the Ukrainian military has access to equipment that allows them to tell apart a civilian airliner and a Russian military aircraft. The insurgents, on the other hand, have a history of shooting down aircraft and have access to hardware that can be used to shoot down such an airliner. The fact that the insurgents are looting the crash site and destroying evidence that could implicate them is also pretty damning.

It helped them so well 13 years ago... oh wait, I wasn't supposed to use that argument since it's totally not related apparently. You know, civilian plane being shot down over Ukraine. Yeah, totally unrelated.

They have shot down planes with small arms fire and rocket-launched missiles yes. That's quite different from using a SAM-site, I might add. Wheter they actually had the gear is still up to debate and not proved either...

Also, please prove "destroying evidence"... since without anything to back that up, you're just making accusations up.

 

Also very funny to keep being told to "stop read RT" with me never reading it at all... *shrug*

Edited July 19, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[Malcador]

Not this **** again. If you don't see the fundamental difference between popular protests aiming to preserve Ukraine and a foreign-funded separatist insurgency that recently murdered three hundred people, there's nothing to discuss here.

Well, just because a government is elected means it's better than armed rebels, is what he meant. Very rosy view of the "good" rebels though and who knows the influence the West had there fully - is in their interest in the game to interfere, after all.

 

As for who did it, well with incompetence as a cause it still could be anyone really - 3 sides all have these weapon and people that plausibly use them - though rebels have more reason to shoot at things so it's likely them.

[Tagaziel]

You seem to have missed the government sending out the army on their own soil, and the many civilian casualties they made during their operation.

I can savely say the Ukranian government killed more Ukranians than the militia did...

 

In a conflict caused by separatist insurgents. Every nation in the world would fight separatist insurgents, I'm not sure why you think preserving the unity of a country is bad.

 

 

 

Seems populair to me.

Also, I am, how many months later now, still waiting for proof of that aledged "foreign-funded" theory. Funny seeing how they could prove the rebels shot down the plane apparently within 24 hours... but this... they couldn't have done yet. Makes sense, right?

 

If you still believe it's a grassroots movement at this point, I have nothing more to say.

 

 

Also, again, it's not proven yet which side killed 300 citizens. But apparently facts wont stop accusations. Who needs facts right? Only get in the way like in Iraq, and what a glorious victory that was... *cough*

 

Because wiretaps, eyewitness and photographic reports of Buk M2 systems (one with an incomplete load of missiles) being shipped back to Russia over the border by separatists, and the fact it was brought down in rebel controlled territory, are no evidence at all.

 

 

Considering we can determine causes of planecrashes so easily in 2014, care to tell use where MH370 is, and what happened to it?

Right, we don't know that after months still... also in 2014.

 

ysually events in warzones are less clear and certain than outside, due to, you know, the entire conflict going on.

Especially with the outdated equipment Ukraine has.

 

Because MH370 and Malaysian 17 disappeared in nearly identical circumstances, right.

 

 

It does if people throw out arguments as "Ukranian Government can't have done it, since they have no reason to!"

And how can a civ plane being shot down before NOT be related to a civ plane being shot down now? Really!

Ukranian Military's gear is outdated, their training sucks, their communication is atrocious... they primarily exist now of civilians recruited to the cause and mercenaries.

More than enough fuel for a complete disasterous error, if you ask me.

 

It helped them so well 13 years ago... oh wait, I wasn't supposed to use that argument since it's totally not related apparently. You know, civilian plane being shot down over Ukraine. Yeah, totally unrelated.

They have shot down planes with small arms fire and rocket-launched missiles yes. That's quite different from using a SAM-site, I might add. Wheter they actually had the gear is still up to debate and not proved either...

 

Wikipedia has a nice summary of sources. But of course, I forgot, it's biased and a tool of the evil, evil West.

 

 

Also, please prove "destroying evidence"... since without anything to back that up, you're just making accusations up.

 

Also very funny to keep being told to "stop read RT" with me never reading it at all... *shrug*

 

You certainly sound like a person who gets his news from RT.com and nowhere else. The line of argumentation is certainly similar.

 

Aimed to preserve Ukraine?

 

It was not a popular protest. It was a western Ukrainian protest. If it was a popular protest the country would not be divided now. And before you say it, no Russia couldn't create something in a month that wasn't already there.

 

When nationalists capture police stations in west Ukraine and take guns and go freely waving them around, controlling the streets, controlling government buildings. No one says a word. People in the East have been questioning this for weeks before any insurgency started. And now I present the legal combat units of the legally elected democratic Ukrainian government that those unlawful easterners should stop fighting and submit to, eh? Because who would ever resist an official Ukrainian interior ministry battalion formed from nationalists with their copy cat nazi symbol. Totally illegal to fight them.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Russian websites are totally reliable on that count. Problem is, can't find any evidence that this is in use or indeed true. Well, except for sites like globalresearch.ca and the voicesevas.ru you use as source of the image. Neither is particularly reputable.

 

 

Yeah they probably did and it's horrible. But unless it was deliberate don't imply someone's got the moral high ground there. Ukraine committed worse atrocities by now. And so did US and Russia or anyone who's been in a serious war. That Iranian Airbus in 1988 comes to mind.

 

I'm not sure how you can classify shooting down a civilian airliner cruising at 10km as accidental.

 

Edited July 19, 2014 by Tagaziel

[Zoraptor]

You can easily class shooting down an airliner as accidental, the previous Ukrainian incident- a missile which projected150 km beyond the intended target and 350km away from Ukraine- was pure accident, they fired at something other than the target hit and there's no suggestion from anyone that they actually tried to hit that civilian plane. IranAir655 is still an accident, though complicated by gross incompetence. The operator thought he was firing at an F14 that was attacking, I don't think anyone sensible suggests anything otherwise; that it happened to be an Airbus that was not behaving in any other way than normal for a civilian aircraft and not in any manner at all that the operator believed was a matter of gross incompetence and bad equipment design, but neither that nor all the lies trying to justify it post facto make it deliberate shoot down of a civilian plane. Albeit, that was not at 10km altitude as it was still climbing out of Bandar Abbas.

[Agiel]

Let's be real honest here, the Soviet Union and its successor state has also been given to bouts of gross negligence:

 

http://youtu.be/_glEQuvurFQ?t=1m44s

 

Then there was the West German pilot who penetrated the Soviet Union's layered air defense network to land in Red Square... in a Cessna:

 

 

Postscript: The Alexandar Zuyev video also describes what is possibly the best defection plan in the history of mankind.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Agiel

[Gromnir]

Let's be real honest here, the Soviet Union and its successor state has also been given to bouts of gross negligence:

 

http://youtu.be/_glEQuvurFQ?t=1m44s

60 minutes? everybody knows that the only reputable sources o' news is al-jazeera and rt. that were sarcasm btw. am suspecting that more than a few folks wouldn't get that.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Agiel]

I actually am quite partial to Al Jazeera America. It may have its slant against Israel (though in spite of it, I think they're at least more on target than most US media is), but that's why I also read tons of other sources: Reuters, Associated Press, The Atlantic, Le Monde, Stratfor, and so forth. As long as the writing staff isn't filled with total kooks, then at the very least they serve as good sources to triangulate a reasoned point of view. Oh, and before anyone says anything, Fox News and Free Republic are about as worthy of my contempt as RT is.

[Gromnir]

I actually am quite partial to Al Jazeera America. It may have its slant against Israel (though in spite of it, I think they're at least more on target than most US media is), but that's why I also read tons of other sources: Reuters, Associated Press, The Atlantic, Le Monde, Stratfor, and so forth. As long as the writing staff isn't filled with total kooks, then at the very least they serve as good sources to triangulate a reasoned point of view. Oh, and before anyone says anything, Fox News and Free Republic are about as worthy of my contempt as RT is.

 "may have a slant against Israel"? 

 

...

 

"may"?

 

umm...

 

"may"? really?

 

*shrug*

 

US new agencies is not state run, so you do get personal politics bleeding through with some networks such as msnbc and fox-- gotta pick and choose. conversely, lack of government control or funding by the emir o' qatar is an obvious benefit US news sources enjoy. nevertheless, you didn't actually say, "may," did you?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps 

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2010/09/20109783540588282.html

 

is a nifty example. "Ahmad Tharwat, a political commentator in the US..." who? some clown in minnesota with a cable access show kinda like wayne's world, but without the production values? is a typical ploy.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Gromnir

[obyknven]

Actually this hysteria about shut downed Boeing make us lulz. Ukrainian army destroyed Ukrainian huge cities and only officially killed around 1000 civilians - everything is ok, subhumans must suffer, EU and US fully support this massacre.  290 WHITE PEOPLE has been killed - HOLY SHET! EU and US outraged, immediately UNN  Security Council, let's begin NATO intervention into Ukraine and other Western butthurt. 

[obyknven]

SBU released new record of intercepted russian terrorist's discussion about shot down plane.
SHOCK. VIDEO. BEZ SMS

http://youtu.be/ZivqdR1KQI0

 

Another PROOF!

http://youtu.be/JrYZiiR5Zno

[Malcador]

Actually this hysteria about shut downed Boeing make us lulz. Ukrainian army destroyed Ukrainian huge cities and only officially killed around 1000 civilians - everything is ok, subhumans must suffer, EU and US fully support this massacre. 290 WHITE PEOPLE has been killed - HOLY SHET! EU and US outraged, immediately UNN Security Council, let's begin NATO intervention into Ukraine and other Western butthurt.

Well outrage is selective always. But this is different due to the victims not being related to the conflict in any way.

[Walsingham]

Can we settle this question about the far right in the Ukrainian government ranks once and for all?

 

My understanding is that yes, they have been turning up, including a number of foreign fighters. But given the recent election gave them less of a showing than the far right in France, is it REALLY sensible to describe Kiev as Neo-nazis?

 

I'd just like to know how you're calculating that view.

[Zoraptor]

There's very few outright neo nazis, but they're disproportionately represented where it counts as they're far more willing to kill and die for their cause than more moderate sorts.

 

Well outrage is selective always. But this is different due to the victims not being related to the conflict in any way.

 

 

Even within those limits the outrage is being applied selectively. Many commentators/ politicians are- within the same broadcast/ speech- complaining that the rebels are leaving bodies to rot and moving the bodies too early and destroying evidence, as if it's possible to put a gigantic chiller over a 9km crash site in an active war zone. Plus of course the international experts (not OSCE, who aren't experts) aren't there yet because Kiev is keeping them in Kiev citing safety concerns, so there's simply no choice other than to either leave the bodies to rot or move them- and either option is viewed as an outrage. 

[obyknven]

Flightaware change history of MAS17 flights. They change paths of previous flights.

"Corrected" path now

http://ru.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140716/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

Initial path from cashe

http://www.peeep.us/d5287e05

http://www.peeep.us/e2adbfa1 
http://www.peeep.us/266914a9
http://www.peeep.us/20b210ad
http://www.peeep.us/f00767f4 
http://www.peeep.us/97693421

Someone try cleanse evidence of own crime, yeah, but do this too rude.

 

http://youtu.be/k9sM_f5gnOA

 

 

[Walsingham]

There's very few outright neo nazis, but they're disproportionately represented where it counts as they're far more willing to kill and die for their cause than more moderate sorts.

 

Well outrage is selective always. But this is different due to the victims not being related to the conflict in any way.

 

 

Even within those limits the outrage is being applied selectively. Many commentators/ politicians are- within the same broadcast/ speech- complaining that the rebels are leaving bodies to rot and moving the bodies too early and destroying evidence, as if it's possible to put a gigantic chiller over a 9km crash site in an active war zone. Plus of course the international experts (not OSCE, who aren't experts) aren't there yet because Kiev is keeping them in Kiev citing safety concerns, so there's simply no choice other than to either leave the bodies to rot or move them- and either option is viewed as an outrage. 

 

Can you frame that perspective in a way that can be falsified?

 

For the record my metric is that if Nationalist Ukrainians were nazis then they'd vote for nazis. They overwhelmingly voted against nazis.

[obyknven]

Meanwhile in Turkey.

In a hotel in Turkey, Ukrainian tourists shouted loudly: "Russians must die!"
What those Ukrainians didn't know is that in the same floor there were Russian tourists as well.
A Russian woman asked the Ukrainians to "shut up" and the Ukrainians began to shout even more loudly.
Soon enough the two groups of tourists were in a fight, they used everything in that floor of the hotel, chairs, dishes, and every kind of furniture.
Later on, most of the tourists of other floors joined the fight.
After beating the Ukrainians, Russian tourists were so angry and provocated that they started a fight with the English and German tourists who supported the Ukrainians, and surprisingly, French tourists were on the Russian side along with few guys from Belorussia, Kazakhstan and the Caucasus, and helped us beating the Germans.
Hotel's staff men were so shocked and couldn't do anything except watching the fight, from the cameras.
At the end of the day, a French guy bought a Russian flag, and we hanged it on the rooftop of that Turkish hotel.
Thank god there were no American tourists at that time in the hotel, maybe they were eating at McDonald's, but I can tell their reaction when they returned and saw the Russian tricolor waving on the rooftop, maybe they thought that the hotel was annexed or something...

 

http://mundodeimagens.net/in-turkey-there-was-a-mass-brawl-tourists/

[Malcador]

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/07/21/16/16/rebels-discuss-black-box-search-over-phone

 

 

"I have a request for you," the rebel leader says.

"It is not my request. Our friends from high above are very much interested in the fate of the black boxes. I mean people from Moscow."

 

Good thing he made it nice and clear in the open

[HoonDing]

Ready the nukes.

[BruceVC]

 

There's very few outright neo nazis, but they're disproportionately represented where it counts as they're far more willing to kill and die for their cause than more moderate sorts.

 

Well outrage is selective always. But this is different due to the victims not being related to the conflict in any way.

 

 

Even within those limits the outrage is being applied selectively. Many commentators/ politicians are- within the same broadcast/ speech- complaining that the rebels are leaving bodies to rot and moving the bodies too early and destroying evidence, as if it's possible to put a gigantic chiller over a 9km crash site in an active war zone. Plus of course the international experts (not OSCE, who aren't experts) aren't there yet because Kiev is keeping them in Kiev citing safety concerns, so there's simply no choice other than to either leave the bodies to rot or move them- and either option is viewed as an outrage. 

 

Can you frame that perspective in a way that can be falsified?

 

For the record my metric is that if Nationalist Ukrainians were nazis then they'd vote for nazis. They overwhelmingly voted against nazis.

 

 

That's an excellent and valid point and basically is the  KO punch in the argument that says " Neo-nazi's are truly ingrained and influential in the new Kiev political structure "