European Parliamentary Elections results, major concern?

[BruceVC]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/25/european-parliament-election-euroskeptics_n_5390012.html

 

So there have been some concerning results, IMO, with the rise of euroskeptics and far right political parties in various countries in the EU.

 

Overall we should still see 2/3 majority for support of the EU and the future of the EU but the fact that political parties that are basically opposed to the EU are doing so well in the local vote in the various EU countries worries me. Especially for the longevity of the EU. You can see how well the UKIP did in the UK, Nigel Farage is ecstatic

 

So what do think is the cause of all this anti-EU sentiment and should we be worried. The worst end result would be an eventual dissolution of the EU and the various European countries return to independent rule which I think would be an egregious mistake?

 

 

[Gromnir]

personally, am more interested in indian parliamentary elections. bjp takes the reigns o' what may be the most populous nation on earth by 2025. am genuine fascinated by the forthcoming social and economic changes, and how the western world will react to changes in india.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[HoonDing]

I'm all for no more annoying Eurocrats stuffing the metro.

 

Then again we'd miss out on more passive-aggressive UK chest-pounding and hawt Slavic girls.

[BruceVC]

personally, am more interested in indian parliamentary elections. bjp takes the reigns o' what may be the most populous nation on earth by 2025. am genuine fascinated by the forthcoming social and economic changes, and how the western world will react to changes in india.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

The Indian election is relevant but I am not that concerned about the future of India as Modi is pro business and wants to fix the systemic problems that have been slowing down the growth of the Indian economy. He wants to encourage foreign investment, improve infrastructure and innovate Indian businesses. These are all good things for the future of India

 

 

I am much more worried about a growing number of anti-EU parliamentarians who will now sit and make decisions in the EU parliament. A failure of the EU I think will be very detrimental to the global economy.

Edited May 26, 2014 by BruceVC

[Meshugger]

Why do you think Bruce on why the anti-EU delegates got so many votes and what should be done? I am really curious.

 

Personally, I think that it has to do with no one really being against the EU as an idea, but rather on how it has become. And since the established parties are just going to do the same old, who are you left to vote for?

[Gromnir]

how odd. bruce is all concerned 'bout treatment 'o women on message boards, but potential treatment o' 1 billion women doesn't seem to concern him? curious. Hindutva has some serious implications for women, gays and various minority groups (ethnic and or religious) w/i india.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

how odd. bruce is all concerned 'bout treatment 'o women on message boards, but potential treatment o' 1 billion women doesn't seem to concern him? curious. Hindutva has some serious implications for women, gays and various minority groups (ethnic and or religious) w/i india.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Meh, not playing white saviour to all those poor oppressed women in third world countries while the first world is also far from being problem-free is pretty much the best thing one can do in his situation, methinks.

[BruceVC]

how odd. bruce is all concerned 'bout treatment 'o women on message boards, but potential treatment o' 1 billion women doesn't seem to concern him? curious. Hindutva has some serious implications for women, gays and various minority groups (ethnic and or religious) w/i india.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No Gromnir, there is nothing odd or inconsistent in my comments. Of course the treatment of women and minority groups throughout the globe is very relevant. But this thread is about the rise of anti-European parliamentary representation in the EU parliament. What does this mean for the future of the EU and what does this tell us about the current structures and success of the EU

 

I'll happily participate in a thread that you may want to start about the treatment of minority groups in India. But lets try to stay on topic around the European parliamentary elections

[Raithe]

One of the reasons that the UKIP got so many votes this time around is that for pretty much the last decade plus the UK public have been clamouring for a referendum on the subject of the EU. It comes across that very few of the public actually want to be part of the EU, especially after the sheer morass of bureaucracy and wasteful spending that it's become. But for various reasons Labour, Tory, and LibDem keep talking around it, agree to sign treaties and play the politics as normal while ignoring that amount of unrest it's building up.

 

Sure, there's the idea of helping out your  neighbour, that's all to the fine. The trouble being that you don't hand your neighbour your building materials when your own roof has fallen in and the rain is pouring into your house. You fix your own place first, and then you can help out others.

 

It's the little things like that, dragging tax money out of country to pay off other's debts, being told that "no you can't deport that extremist hatemonger, because even though he's breaking your laws, Brussels says it's against his human rights to put him back in his own country...."

 

Trying to sort out expense fiddles with your own government, and then having the various reports on just how much corruption, nepotism, and general "expense abuse" there is with the EU bureaucrats and various quangos that seem to have piled up.

 

After a decade or two of that, it's not that surprising that fed up people will vote even for the annoying prats if they're the ones who actually seem to be talking about the subject people want changed.

[BruceVC]

One of the reasons that the UKIP got so many votes this time around is that for pretty much the last decade plus the UK public have been clamouring for a referendum on the subject of the EU. It comes across that very few of the public actually want to be part of the EU, especially after the sheer morass of bureaucracy and wasteful spending that it's become. But for various reasons Labour, Tory, and LibDem keep talking around it, agree to sign treaties and play the politics as normal while ignoring that amount of unrest it's building up.

 

Sure, there's the idea of helping out your  neighbour, that's all to the fine. The trouble being that you don't hand your neighbour your building materials when your own roof has fallen in and the rain is pouring into your house. You fix your own place first, and then you can help out others.

 

It's the little things like that, dragging tax money out of country to pay off other's debts, being told that "no you can't deport that extremist hatemonger, because even though he's breaking your laws, Brussels says it's against his human rights to put him back in his own country...."

 

Trying to sort out expense fiddles with your own government, and then having the various reports on just how much corruption, nepotism, and general "expense abuse" there is with the EU bureaucrats and various quangos that seem to have piled up.

 

After a decade or two of that, it's not that surprising that fed up people will vote even for the annoying prats if they're the ones who actually seem to be talking about the subject people want changed.

 

That is a very good post and insightful. IMO it accurately raises how in the UK  the UKIP has gained such support. I wonder if stories are the same in other European countries, like France and Denmark,  where similar far right parties have gained in popularity?

[Meshugger]

In Finland, they pretty much gained support for bailing out foreign banks and other european countries.

[BruceVC]

In Finland, they pretty much gained support for bailing out foreign banks and other european countries.

 

I'm not sure I follow, are you saying the far right in Finland gained support  because the current Finnish government bailed out foreign banks ?

[Nonek]

Well I remember when we entered the EEC back in the early 70's, there was no suggestion at that time that we would be ruled from Brussel's or that the organisation would be much more than the Commonwealth. The unvoted for changes that have made Europe a single state were never voted on, and frankly it's about time that the matter was clarified. Obviously politicians do not want that as being an MP in Europe is a legitimate recourse and cash cushion if they fail to get elected at home, and we all know that there is a lot of loose money in the EU budget, but these individuals will at some point have to face facts and the electorate whom they are supposed to represent.

[Nepenthe]

 

In Finland, they pretty much gained support for bailing out foreign banks and other european countries.

 

 

I'm not sure I follow, are you saying the far right in Finland gained support  because the current Finnish government bailed out foreign banks ?

Yes, but the Finnish skeptics don't really qualify as "far right", at least in no other reasonable political climate.

 

The main issue is that in most European countries, the "old, established parties" are unequivocally in support of a constantly deepening union. A union, that is already a bureaucratic nightmare that hasn't had its budget cleared by auditors ever. Basically people, especially in countries with high tax rates, are getting fed up for footing the bill of it all. Certainly in cases where the funds are tranferred to other countries with considerably laxer taxation... I know I am.

[BruceVC]

Well I remember when we entered the EEC back in the early 70's, there was no suggestion at that time that we would be ruled from Brussel's or that the organisation would be much more than the Commonwealth. The unvoted for changes that have made Europe a single state were never voted on, and frankly it's about time that the matter was clarified. Obviously politicians do not want that as being an MP in Europe is a legitimate recourse and cash cushion if they fail to get elected at home, and we all know that there is a lot of loose money in the EU budget, but these individuals will at some point have to face facts and the electorate whom they are supposed to represent.

 

So Nonek would you advocate a complete breakup of the EU, with a view it was always doomed to fail,  or rather structural changes and if you believe the latter what changes would you suggest in the EU? The economic and political structures in the EU is not my strong point so I am interested in what people think would improve the EU as a whole

[Nepenthe]

Well I remember when we entered the EEC back in the early 70's, there was no suggestion at that time that we would be ruled from Brussel's or that the organisation would be much more than the Commonwealth. The unvoted for changes that have made Europe a single state were never voted on, and frankly it's about time that the matter was clarified. Obviously politicians do not want that as being an MP in Europe is a legitimate recourse and cash cushion if they fail to get elected at home, and we all know that there is a lot of loose money in the EU budget, but these individuals will at some point have to face facts and the electorate whom they are supposed to represent.

Indeed, it's changed a lot from the '94 version we joined, as well. And no referenda here, either.

[Rosbjerg]

So what do think is the cause of all this anti-EU sentiment and should we be worried?

 

The economy and most likely not (at least in regards to the continuation of the union).

 

I do worry a little about the rise of nationalistic socialistic and Lib/Soc parties (not to be confused with 1930 style nationalsozialismus .. just yet) - Extremism is almost always a direct consequences of a perceived lack of resources... but this political movement under way, is so populist that it's not entirely healthy. These parties try to compass extreme conservative notions like nationalism, immigrations issues. Liberal notions like tax cuts for the rich and "transperancy" while being unequivocally Top-Down in their own management.. and left wing politics in the style of elder care, welfare issues and healthcare.

 

The problem is their policies become completely polluted with "here and now" issues - meaning a lot of the actual needed political management, that needs to be a lot more farsighted, is completely overlooked - which is basically paving the way for the next huge crisis down the road.

 

This mirrors the political development of Europe in the 1930s, except the union and the peaceful atmosphere towards fellow member states fuels the anger outwards. Europe won't go to war again, but it might shut itself in and look inwards. Which is also bad for the development of Europe.

[BruceVC]

 

So what do think is the cause of all this anti-EU sentiment and should we be worried?

 

The economy and most likely not (at least in regards to the continuation of the union).

 

I do worry a little about the rise of nationalistic socialistic and Lib/Soc parties (not to be confused with 1930 style nationalsozialismus .. just yet) - Extremism is almost always a direct consequences of a perceived lack of resources... but this political movement under way, is so populist that it's not entirely healthy. These parties try to compass extreme conservative notions like nationalism, immigrations issues. Liberal notions like tax cuts for the rich and "transperancy" while being unequivocally Top-Down in their own management.. and left wing politics in the style of elder care, welfare issues and healthcare.

 

The problem is their policies become completely polluted with "here and now" issues - meaning a lot of the actual needed political management, that needs to be a lot more farsighted, is completely overlooked - which is basically paving the way for the next huge crisis down the road.

 

This mirrors the political development of Europe in the 1930s, except the union and the peaceful atmosphere towards fellow member states fuels the anger outwards. Europe won't go to war again, but it might shut itself in and look inwards. Which is also bad for the development of Europe.

 

 

Wow another interesting perspective, nice one

 

But tell me something. Denmark, if I'm not mistaken, was one of the current EU countries where a far right party gained major support. So I have to ask why, why in such a prosperous and socially stable country could far right ideals be so popular? For example are Danish people really that worried about immigration?

[Nonek]

 

 

So Nonek would you advocate a complete breakup of the EU, with a view it was always doomed to fail,  or rather structural changes and if you believe the latter what changes would you suggest in the EU? The economic and political structures in the EU is not my strong point so I am interested in what people think would improve the EU as a whole

 

 

Personally i'm in favour of devolving the EU back into an economic commonwealth, we are as nations very old, individualistic and independent, that is not a bad thing as many regard it to be. There are some EU directives I would embrace and some I would abandon, but i'm not a rabid right winger who believes that Europe is the most pressing issue in my home country, there are systemic failures and oversights in my own nation that have nothing to do with the EU, and will still be there when the current whipping boy is no longer of such importance.

 

One thing that does unduly worry me about Europe is the steadily escalating animosity towards America, though some of that is rather warranted with the clumsy handling of matters the USA has engaged in lately. Large power blocks with rather antagonistic feelings between them is a very similar situation to any student of history.

[Nepenthe]

 

 

So what do think is the cause of all this anti-EU sentiment and should we be worried?

 

 

The economy and most likely not (at least in regards to the continuation of the union).

 

I do worry a little about the rise of nationalistic socialistic and Lib/Soc parties (not to be confused with 1930 style nationalsozialismus .. just yet) - Extremism is almost always a direct consequences of a perceived lack of resources... but this political movement under way, is so populist that it's not entirely healthy. These parties try to compass extreme conservative notions like nationalism, immigrations issues. Liberal notions like tax cuts for the rich and "transperancy" while being unequivocally Top-Down in their own management.. and left wing politics in the style of elder care, welfare issues and healthcare.

 

The problem is their policies become completely polluted with "here and now" issues - meaning a lot of the actual needed political management, that needs to be a lot more farsighted, is completely overlooked - which is basically paving the way for the next huge crisis down the road.

 

This mirrors the political development of Europe in the 1930s, except the union and the peaceful atmosphere towards fellow member states fuels the anger outwards. Europe won't go to war again, but it might shut itself in and look inwards. Which is also bad for the development of Europe.

 

Wow another interesting perspective, nice one

 

But tell me something. Denmark, if I'm not mistaken, was one of the current EU countries where a far right party gained major support. So I have to ask why, why in such a prosperous and socially stable country could far right ideals be so popular? For example are Danish people really that worried about immigration?

i don't have the statistics, mostly because the powers that be make them as hard as possible to access, but crime committed by eastern europeans has gone through the roof recently. Highly professional, highly organised, and at worst, brings along organised beggars that bleeding hearts liberals want to rescue with other people's money. And I do have considerable personal experience on the matter vs. Prejudices.

[Rosbjerg]

Large power blocks with rather antagonistic feelings between them is a very similar situation to any student of history.

 

I wish more would see the similarities of how post 2008 mirrors the development of post 1929. Prolonged financial inequality and instability is really really bad.. It may be turned to something good, but often it will fester a wound in the public's political psyche.

 

But tell me something. Denmark, if I'm not mistaken, was one of the current EU countries where a far right party gained major support. So I have to ask why, why in such a prosperous and socially stable country could far right ideals be so popular? For example are Danish people really that worried about immigration?

 

The 'Danish People's Party' (Dansk Folkeparty) has been on a steady rise since 1995 and it's predecessors since the early 70s. Denmark (and Scandinavia in general) suddenly realized there was an entire world out there and one that didn't have the same level of communal coherence and "moral fiber" (or so the conservatives would have us believe).

 

With the influx of immigrants Scandinavian culture began to shift towards multiculturalism and the rise of nationalistic socialist parties are simply a response to the introduction of foreign culture. Much like allergic reactions can develop if a healthy body has lived too sterile for too long, so can political ideals be corrupted by disproportionate fear and distortion of reality.

 

Swedes will try to sell themselves as the progressive and open minded among us, Danes as the realists and Norwegians as the eccentric, but pragmatic isolationist.. This is not true for any of us (but what we are is a much longer discussion) we simply all reflect the same fundamental mindset:

 

Scandinavia is in it's essence not a worldly place, we are local, communal and very narrow minded (luckily in a fairly straight forward and progressive way) - in some ways as Germany was at the dawn of the 20th century.. so these kind of political tendencies have a very rich foundation of fear of the unknown to grow in. And hatred of all things Un-Scandivaian, which we perceive as nondemocratic, noncommunal and nonopenminded - which I'm sure some of the American conservative elements on these boards have noticed .. It's easy to sell a platform that combats these things, as they believed to be very universally bad (for us), but it's a gross simplification and populist stereotype.

[Meshugger]

What most people in the EU want is a free internal market with no need for a passport to travel from one country to the next. A simple common constitution which states what rights the citizen have and a european court that upholds it, coupled with a parliament that passes the laws. A nightwatcher's commonwealth more or less. Everything from taxes to elderly care and national defense would be up to the individual states. 

 

 

Sadly, almost every major politician from the major parties seems to think otherwise.

[Barothmuk]

how odd. bruce is all concerned 'bout treatment 'o women on message boards, but potential treatment o' 1 billion women doesn't seem to concern him? curious.

The neo-liberal will occasionally pay lip-service to socially progressive ideas however at the end of the day it is 'free trade' and the freedom to exploit that are the top priority.

Edited May 26, 2014 by Barothmuk

[JFSOCC]

whenever there are bad economic times, you see a large upswing in right wing and populist parties. The unwashed masses are generally uneducated and it is easy to capitalize on their fear. Right wing and populist parties are the best at language directed at these idiots who aren't trained to see they're being manipulated to vote against their interests. In these circumstances anti-scientific, anti-social and hateful sentiments thrive.

 

Remember Hitler was voted in during economically poor times in a populist surge. Refusing to pay reparations to France and England basically won him the elections.(it's not Godwin if it's actually relevant)

 

It's just so easier to point the finger at immigrants, religious minorities, the EU or the poor, rather than at institutionalized corruption, obsolete economic policy and ideologues.

 

voter turn-out in the Netherlands was a measly 38%, which I think will have contributed to the success of the lunatic fringe parties. In Germany with 1% of the votes, they voted in a Satire party FFS.

 

Most people in the Netherlands couldn't correctly tell you what happens in the EU anyway.

 

I'm very sad, as you may have guessed, at the results, but not in the least surprised.

Edited May 26, 2014 by JFSOCC

[Nepenthe]

I'd like to point out - for a second time - that while there are some actually far-right parties in the mix, some others are getting painted as "far right" just because it's "convenient" (either politically or out of laziness)

 

I was particularly amused by the guy who got most votes, a member of the more "responsible" "conservative" party, one who repeatedly calls out the eurocritics out on their populism, stand around in the post-election party wearing a Finland hockey jersey...

Edited May 26, 2014 by Nepenthe