PrimeJunta Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 @Gromnir A solid team can take a quite a bit of turnover, once the culture is there. New people pick it up surprisingly quickly. The best ramp-up I've seen is less than two weeks from introduction to powering ahead full steam. It's also robust, with several key people sharing enough of the culture that the team can lose any or even several of them (depending on team size) without more than a small speed bump. As to Obs's release dates, you're conflating publishers and developers here. Other than the original NWN2 which was a genuine screw-up, as far as I know they've always hit their publisher's deadlines, even with completely unreasonable stuff happening to them like with KOTOR2. Would you be willing to take that friendly bet I offered to Bill Gates' Son, @Gromnir? I'll only make it with one person but it's open to anyone until someone bites. 2 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 given the amount of turnover we typically sees in the game industry, am thinking some o' you is vastly overstating the teamwork aspect. seems smarter to keep some core people and develop a system that is flexible and built on a proven infrastructure. that way your team don't collapse every time you lose a key person... or two. Gromnir don't do software, but that is how we do things in the business world. that being said, even with their super-team intact, obsidian has never met an announced target release... 'least none that we can recall. honestly, we didn't follow ds 3 at all, so we cannot speak to that development, and we honest don't recall soz release dates. heck, obsidian messed with vaunted team chemistry and brought in tim cain.... and he has an even worse history when it comes to release dates and bugged games. "history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." HA! Good Fun! I work as a software consultant for corporations and I would argue in the case of a development studio Prime is correct. Its more important in the case of Obsidian to have a good team that works well and cohesively together than building an infrastructure. Of course both are important and relevant but an effective team is more important to achieve the final product 3 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 @BruceVC @Gromnir Also, a cohesive team will pretty quickly produce its own infrastructure based on its needs, whereas giving a non-cohesive team lots of infrastructure to deal with may even slow down or prevent it from ever gelling. Put another way, you can't do anything without infrastructure, but infrastructure that you can't or won't use or use right is worse than useless, it's an impediment. In some ways software is like lots of other disciplines -- I think the closest more familiar equivalents are crafts like carpentry or building -- but it has the crucial difference that you can't actually see any of it until it works, or doesn't. Until that point it's all in the mind, really. This makes managing it qualitatively different than managing a construction site or a carpentry workshop. It's also not a whole lot like business for a number of reasons I won't go into here. Just that the gulf between suits and nerds is real, and reflects real differences in what they do and how they do it. It's very rare to find a suit who really gets software, or a nerd who really gets business -- this is in fact one of the main reason most startups fail: if a nerd is at the helm he'll crash and burn the business, and if a suit is at the helm you'll get this: 3 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 @Gromnir A solid team can take a quite a bit of turnover, once the culture is there. New people pick it up surprisingly quickly. The best ramp-up I've seen is less than two weeks from introduction to powering ahead full steam. It's also robust, with several key people sharing enough of the culture that the team can lose any or even several of them (depending on team size) without more than a small speed bump. As to Obs's release dates, you're conflating publishers and developers here. Other than the original NWN2 which was a genuine screw-up, as far as I know they've always hit their publisher's deadlines, even with completely unreasonable stuff happening to them like with KOTOR2. Would you be willing to take that friendly bet I offered to Bill Gates' Son, @Gromnir? I'll only make it with one person but it's open to anyone until someone bites. I don't do steam anymore, not after they mess up. I am only willing to bet on GOG titles. How pricy a game you want to bet? If I understand correctly, you are wager that PE will be fully release before 2015. So Beta release does not count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 The bet I was offering was specifically for P:E itself, or the expansion if you already have a P:E license. If you have both... I dunno, I think it'd get too complicated. If GoG allows you to gift games, then I'm more than cool with that too, I have an account (obviously). And yes, my wager is that P:E will be released -- full release, not beta, not Early Access -- before midnight of Dec 31, 2014. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Alan Pavlish, Michael A. Stackpole, Ken St. Andre and Liz Danforth They actually all bailed on the project very early on, like before development even started. They were involved in some very preliminary stuff. Weren't they hired as area designers and Stackpole also to write a novella? Which would mean that their job would have been completed before actually development of the game would have even started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensuki Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Not all of them, I think some were present at the some of the design meetings that Chris Avellone attended. I remember reading that Ken St Andre bailed early and Liz Danforth's contribution was very minor. Don't remember about Pavlish. Stackpole's novella had to be completed by Nathan Long. Details on that were sketchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyges Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) i would prefer that they took their time but apparently they are intent on releasing it in the promised quarter. If they feel it works then so be it. Lets just hope their QA is sufficient. Edited June 3, 2014 by Gyges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) As to Obs's release dates, you're conflating publishers and developers here. Other than the original NWN2 which was a genuine screw-up, as far as I know they've always hit their publisher's deadlines, even with completely unreasonable stuff happening to them like with KOTOR2. ... imagine the sound of Gromnir's jaw hitting the floor. yes, ultimately is the publisher that decides when a game is released, but you is bug-nut crazy if you think it was interplay that delayed iwd development so that it were released same time as diablo... or any o' the other dozen or so delayed releases. c'mon. oh, and the "unreasonable" stuff from kotor2 is indicative o' what we were saying 'bout the importance o' business and management in a game development. the brobdingnagian failure to get an extension and its terms in writing were the kinda thing that should be taught in all o' those game developer schools as an object lesson in fail. obsidian can't blame anybody this time. will be interesting. HA! Good Fun! ps we will concede that the final delay for ps:t were out of developer hands as it were a gold failure. am never even having heard o' such a thing since then. but that were only the final delay, and it were brief. Edited June 3, 2014 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 imagine the sound of Gromnir's jaw hitting the floor. yes, ultimately is the publisher that decides when a game is released, but you is bug-nut crazy if you think it was interplay that delayed iwd development so that it were released same time as diablo... or any o' the other dozen or so delayed releases. c'mon. Both IWD's were a Black Isle Studios games, not Obsidian. Some of the same people, but different studio, different team. oh, and the "unreasonable" stuff from kotor2 is indicative o' what we were saying 'bout the importance o' business and management in a game development. the brobdingnagian failure to get an extension and its terms in writing were the kinda thing that should be taught in all o' those game developer schools as an object lesson in fail. I agree. But that says nothing about Obsidian's capability to deliver on-schedule, on-budget. obsidian can't blame anybody this time. will be interesting. HA! Good Fun! ps we will concede that the final delay for ps:t were out of developer hands as it were a gold failure. am never even having heard o' such a thing since then. but that were only the final delay, and it were brief. PS:T was a Black Isle game as well. For someone so sure of himself you're awfully fuzzy with the facts, IMO. 1 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 *sigh* the bis games were delayed 'cause o' the developers working on the games couldn't make deadlines. many o' the black isle guys were the same as were working on poe. the guys in charge at obsidian were the guys running the development side o' things at bis. even the name obsidian is clear meant to make us recognize their links to black isle, so to pretend no such link exists is ridiculous. someyou body not seem to clear on facts, and it ain't Gromnir. oh, and if list alll the bis folks not at obsidian, we will once again noe all the turnover in the industry. many of the folks who were at obsidian during development of kotor2 ain't their now, but the guys running things is the same. you wanna pretend that the obsidian guys didn't develop games previous to obsidian? HA! but okie dokie. kotor2 were obsidian and yeah, it does speak to their abilities as a business organization. the only positive 'bout the failures o' kotor2 were that the most glaring failure were so simple and obvious that it is unlikely they ever repeat it. nwn2 were delayed. motb were delayed. soz... no idea. can't recall. stick of truth were delayed multiple times and it were still a buggy mess. etc. you got a funny kinda recollection for facts. "history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme." wanna blame on publishers? *chuckle* if happens every time, regardless o' publisher? and obsidian is free to makes the contract with the publishers. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 @Gromnir, your attempts at squirting ink and equivocation duly noted, as well as your refusal to put your money where your mouth is. I will not be engaging in further conversation with you on this or any other topic. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 *eye roll* this game is being sold, in part, as a re-imagining o' bg2 and the ie games. obsidian is not being shy 'bout their black isle history. what thin veiled hypocrisy it would be to ignore the bad while lauding the good. ... and am not having the foggiest notion o' what, "put your money where your mouth is" means in the present context. am not sure that phrase means what you think it does. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 PrimeJunta made a bet offer a page or so ago regarding buying something or another as bet that he'd take the side of the game being released before midnight on Dec 31, 2014 and the other person taking the POE will release after that. Since no one has taken him up on the bet, he's indicating that you can put your "money where your mouth is" by taking him up the bet if you think POE will be delayed past that point. I think. 2 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) *eye roll* this game is being sold, in part, as a re-imagining o' bg2 and the ie games. obsidian is not being shy 'bout their black isle history. what thin veiled hypocrisy it would be to ignore the bad while lauding the good. ... and am not having the foggiest notion o' what, "put your money where your mouth is" means in the present context. am not sure that phrase means what you think it does. HA! Good Fun! Gromnir you must stop "sighing" as much as you do when you are about to dismiss someones view, its not good for your health to be so depressed Prime is saying you must take him a bet that PoE will be released by the end of 2014. If you don't agree with him, in other words Obsidian won't make that deadline, then take the bet. That's what he means by "put your money where your mouth is" because it appears you don't think PoE will be released by the end of 2014 Edited June 3, 2014 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 PrimeJunta made a bet offer a page or so ago regarding buying something or another as bet that he'd take the side of the game being released before midnight on Dec 31, 2014 and the other person taking the POE will release after that. Since no one has taken him up on the bet, he's indicating that you can put your "money where your mouth is" by taking him up the bet if you think POE will be delayed past that point. I think. Yes that's definitely what he meant and has explained several times "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManifestedISO Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 what thin veiled hypocrisy it would be to ignore the bad while lauding the good. No way, that practice is basic human survival, sometimes the only way to get through the day. I pretty much have to ignore my hairline these days, or else I'll sink to the floor whimpering in remorse, but at least I enjoy a slim waist and strong hands. Or maybe I'm not understanding the analogy. 3 All Stop. On Screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 what thin veiled hypocrisy it would be to ignore the bad while lauding the good. No way, that practice is basic human survival, sometimes the only way to get through the day. I pretty much have to ignore my hairline these days, or else I'll sink to the floor whimpering in remorse, but at least I enjoy a slim waist and strong hands. Or maybe I'm not understanding the analogy. You right of course, people do generally ignore the bad and focus on what's good from an overall confidence perspective "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 PrimeJunta made a bet offer a page or so ago regarding buying something or another as bet that he'd take the side of the game being released before midnight on Dec 31, 2014 and the other person taking the POE will release after that. Since no one has taken him up on the bet, he's indicating that you can put your "money where your mouth is" by taking him up the bet if you think POE will be delayed past that point. I think. well, that is just... asinine. thanks for clarifying however. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 The bet I was offering was specifically for P:E itself, or the expansion if you already have a P:E license. If you have both... I dunno, I think it'd get too complicated. If GoG allows you to gift games, then I'm more than cool with that too, I have an account (obviously). And yes, my wager is that P:E will be released -- full release, not beta, not Early Access -- before midnight of Dec 31, 2014. I have PE obviously as I am replying you in this thread, and I am quite sure you have too. Do you have the expansion? We can wager on that, If I am not wrong the expansion cost $15. Lets do it like this, I will gift a game or games with a total value of $15 or less for you. Then if you win the wager you need not buy back any for me. If I win you will gift game or games worth a total value of $30 to me. If you agree tell me what games you wanted by Saturday, I am outstation now and have some problems with my cards, I can only do my purchases by then to gift you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannock Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 If a thread ever should have been locked two pages ago, it is this thread. This thread has become a silly mess. 2 I'll do it, for a turnip. DnD item quality description mod (for PoE2) by peardox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 If a thread ever should have been locked two pages ago, it is this thread. This thread has become a silly mess. Which threads need to be locked quicker in your opinion, this type of thread or threads that highlight the importance of Romance in RPG ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryy Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 It's also not a whole lot like business for a number of reasons I won't go into here. Just that the gulf between suits and nerds is real, and reflects real differences in what they do and how they do it. It's very rare to find a suit who really gets software, or a nerd who really gets business -- this is in fact one of the main reason most startups fail: if a nerd is at the helm he'll crash and burn the business, and if a suit is at the helm you'll get this: Oh God, that works so well for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeJunta Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 @Gnostic - Let's keep it simple: the loser will gift the winner with a game of his choice costing $/€ 15 or less, at most 30 days after the wager is decided (i.e., the game is released or Jan 1, 2015 hits, whichever is sooner), and congratulate the winner publicly on a suitable thread here. Shake? I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 @Gnostic - Let's keep it simple: the loser will gift the winner with a game of his choice costing $/€ 15 or less, at most 30 days after the wager is decided (i.e., the game is released or Jan 1, 2015 hits, whichever is sooner), and congratulate the winner publicly on a suitable thread here. Shake? Well it is about half a year later so I don't know if I can remember to check it by then. That's why I want to buy you games first so you will not go all around the place claiming that I am a deal breaker in the event that I lost. Can we do it this way? I gift you $15 worth of games first, if either one of us forgot about this wager when the result is determined then you are off the hook. My memory is not as good when I am younger so tell me what games you prefer by Saturday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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