Israel vs Palestine

[TrashMan]

Depends what you consider a "side".

I don't cheer for Hamas, I cheer for Palestinaians. Their victory does not require bloodshed, altough it does require some concessions from Israel.

 

 

What you fail to realise is the problem of keeping the status quo. Isreal takes land. Israel builds settlements. Plays for time. Time passes.

Now you can use the "these people lived on this land for an entire generation, you can't remove them now!"  and "forced re-location is evil" argument.

Rinse and repeat.

Little by little one can take the entire land with that tactic.

[ktchong]

I was actually more pro-Palestinians... until about a week to two weeks ago.  I had some vague ideas about the Israel-Palestine situation, but did not know the details.  So I decided to find out more about the history and situation.  I read many articles, including these two on Wikipedia:

 

Islamization of the Gaza Strip

 

Hamas Covenant

 

Last night I took the time to read through the Hamas charter: Charter of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) of Palestine in PDF (13 pages)

 

So now I try not to care about either Israel or Palestinians.   I do not like Israel indiscriminately -- and, IMO, deliberately -- targeting and killing children.  However, I no longer have any objection to Israel coming down hard on Gaza or Palestinians.  Israel needs to exterminate Hamas, with whatever means available and necessary.  If Palestinians stand in the way, so be it.   After doing research into Hamas, that is how much their objectives, their politics, their ultimate objectives disturb me. 

 

I am willing to reconsider my position when Hamas are out of the equation, and only Palestinians can stop supporting and electing Hamas.

 

P.S. I am of Chinese descent and a lifelong atheist, so there is no dog for me in this fight.

[Volourn]

"Now you can use the "these people lived on this land for an entire generation, you can't remove them now!"  and "forced re-location is evil" argument.

Rinse and repeat.

Little by little one can take the entire land with that tactic."
 

Hey, that's what people are using with palestinians since they aren't the original inhabitants of the land either.

 

Also, Isreal has given up land plenty of the eyars. They've even physically dragged Isrealis off of land, thrown in them in prison, and even ultimately killed some of the ahrdcore settlers. So, stating that Isreal isn't willing to make concessions is nonsense.

 

Unlike Hamas. Who won't even back off the whole' destroy isreal' mission statement. How do you work and negotiate in good faith with an organzaition  who is set on destroying you and refuses to even back off that basic thing?

[Wrath of Dagon]

The reported "civilian" casualty figures come from Hamas, and other interesting info : http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/07/26/some-israel-gaza-notes/

[TrashMan]

Also, Isreal has given up land plenty of the eyars. They've even physically dragged Isrealis off of land, thrown in them in prison, and even ultimately killed some of the ahrdcore settlers. So, stating that Isreal isn't willing to make concessions is nonsense.

 

When and where? And why is the number of settlements and Israel-held territory still increasing then?

 

Any "good moves" Israel does is just a smokescreen. One step forward, two steps back.

 

[Rostere]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-m-walt/aipac-americas-israel-policy_b_5607883.html

[Tsuga C]

I am willing to reconsider my position when Hamas are out of the equation, and only Palestinians can stop supporting and electing Hamas.

This will never come to pass. Hamas reflects the will of the people of Palestine and was lawfully elevated to power by the ballot. Both the Israelis and Palestinians covet the same land and shall be at one another's throats eternally... or until the Israelis finally embark on a campaign of extermination against the perfidious Palestinians and properly finish the job in Gaza.

[Rostere]

 

Supporters of the far-right Israeli government parties at a rally. I can picture the supporters of Israel's current policies of this forum standing beside them and chanting.

 

Today, the outward faces of Israel are still from a generation with direct connections to the USA, Europe and Western values. The next generation of leaders will come from a much different background, one of having lived their entire lives on ethnically cleansed foreign soil. It's difficult to say why the people who instinctively support Israel in spite of everything do so today; whether it is the product of some latent islamophobia or a feeling that you are supporting your "friend" against a "stranger". The people who represent the hooligans above currently make up a little less than half of the current governing coalition in the Knesset. By the changing demographics (I've laid them out before in this thread, I think...) these will be running the show in 20 years or less (not counting deaths or emigration). By that time, it will be impossible for the West to support Israel any longer, and for the West to see Israel as a "friend" rather than a "stranger". We've already seen tensions increase, but really, things will only get worse in the near- to mid-term.

 

 

I am willing to reconsider my position when Hamas are out of the equation, and only Palestinians can stop supporting and electing Hamas.

This will never come to pass. Hamas reflects the will of the people of Palestine and was lawfully elevated to power by the ballot. Both the Israelis and Palestinians covet the same land and shall be at one another's throats eternally... or until the Israelis finally embark on a campaign of extermination against the perfidious Palestinians and properly finish the job in Gaza.

 

You've left out some very important details. Hamas was elected lawfully, at that time they had the support of the people. Their support has been waxing and waning though. At it's lowest point, in the middle of the previous lull (when Hamas became as powerless as they are today, with the new Egyptian regime and the break with Iran over Syria), Hamas support was in the 20% range. Their previous top was right after the end of the previous hostilities. Since then, their support was fading, until Israel started the current war.

 

Things are getting so predictable now, it should not be hard for anyone to see how sympathies are shifting both in Israel and in Gaza. At the end of this conflict, Hamas will likely poll at a local maximum. Then, their support will slowly fade until the next outbreak of hostilities. At the same time, the current war effort is bolstering support for the sitting Israeli prime minister and his alliance of right-wing parties, further making some kind of settlement look impossible. This war is only serving to polarize opinion, and I'm frankly even a bit surprised that Netanyahu is hastening the long-term shift toward the far-right in Israel for short-term personal political approval.

[Meshugger]

Those Palestinians have such a narrow political spectrum. They should move on and get on with the times and adopt some more western thinking: like gender & identity studies. Who wants to fight and shoot rockets when there's time to discuss what is truly masculine and feminine traits, and debate what is truly Palestinian. When does one become one? What are the manifestations of Palestani culture?

 

Then there will be peace in our times.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Meshugger

[Mor]

I was actually more pro-Palestinians... until about a week to two weeks ago.  I had some vague ideas about the Israel-Palestine situation, but did not know the details.  So I decided to find out more about the history and situation.  I read many articles, including these two on Wikipedia:

 

Islamization of the Gaza Strip

 

Hamas Covenant

 

Last night I took the time to read through the Hamas charter: Charter of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) of Palestine in PDF (13 pages)

 

So now I try not to care about either Israel or Palestinians.   I do not like Israel indiscriminately -- and, IMO, deliberately -- targeting and killing children.  However, I no longer have any objection to Israel coming down hard on Gaza or Palestinians.  Israel needs to exterminate Hamas, with whatever means available and necessary.  If Palestinians stand in the way, so be it.   After doing research into Hamas, that is how much their objectives, their politics, their ultimate objectives disturb me. 

 

I am willing to reconsider my position when Hamas are out of the equation, and only Palestinians can stop supporting and electing Hamas.

 

P.S. I am of Chinese descent and a lifelong atheist, so there is no dog for me in this fight.

Concerning the later, you are either misinformed or use incorrect terminology. If indeed Israel was indiscriminately (or deliberately) targeting any Palestinian civilians (including children) it would have been a war crime.

 

Here are the fact. The law of war requires that parties distinguish between military and civilian targets, forbidding indiscriminate or deliberate attacks of civilian targets.

 

1. Hamas rockets are indiscriminate by nature, which they use to target Israeli cities populated by hundreds of thousands of civilians(lately bragging they shoot for TelAviv) - its a straightforward war crime.

2. Hamas use its civilian population for military purposes (i.e. residential buildings, schoolyards, mosques and hospitals are used as shields for their arms storage, lunching pads, HQ's and military operations) - While its not a war crime per se, they they place their civilians in danger, making them lawful targets for military operations.

 

I recently read\heard an apt comparison: Israel use their rockets to defend their civilians, while Hamas use their civilians to defends their rockets.

 

3. Israel only targets military, they use precision weapons as well as extensive surveillance. Additionally they employ a warning systems to combat Hamas tactics and minimize civilian casualties. So despite news media extravaganza ( unfortunately sensualized pictures over sell reason every time ) I can't think of any army in history of warfare that went into such great length to avoid civilian casualties as much as Israel e.g. In comparison Russian in Chechnya, wasn't to kin on precision, or phone-calls warning, as they leveled the place.

[Malcador]

Still not sure what purpose the phone call warnings do, other than just wrecking property for the sake of it - I suppose it's a carry on to the policy of demolishing suicide bombers' home. Rather bizarre form of punishment, rather counter-productive (though one could argue it fulfills a deeper purpose).

 

Not sure where schools fit in the target classification scheme, but they hit another today, whoops.

 

UNRWA also made a statement about the previous attack - http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-strongly-condemns-israeli-shelling-its-school-gaza-serious

Edited July 30, 2014 by Malcador

[Gorgon]

In short, you can kill as many civilians as you like as long as it's an 'accident' and you were aiming for something else. I don't believe IDF deliberately targets civilians, what would be the gain after all, but if the method envolves leveling an appartment block if you have spotted enemy activity there the result is much the same. 

 

Precision weapons my ass. Naval batteries and artillery strikes used aren't that. They do what they can to reduce civilan casualties, it's just not near enough. 

[Mor]

In short, Hamas actions are intentional war crimes, while your nitpicked Israeli reactions are at best unintentional mistakes.

 

Precision weapons my ass. Naval batteries and artillery strikes used aren't that. They do what they can to reduce civilan casualties, it's just not near enough.

I doubt that your are antiwar in general*, thus unless you can show me any actor in the history of warfare than done more than Israel in this regard, i'll have to dismiss this as nothing but the opinion of clueless online armchair general, or someone who let their bias wall in the facts in blunt double standard.

 

* since i don't recall you vehemently arguing against military action in any other similar conflict\operations that took place over the global including several other that take time at this very moment.

 

Also You still haven't answered what in your opinion an appropriate Israel reaction should have been to Hamas raining rockets on their civilians. Surely you don't think that Hamas hold the moral high ground here, that Israel must protect Palestinian civilians at the cost of abandoning her own, or that anyone but Hamas is to blame for its tactics, that use civilian population/infrastructure for military purpose, as shields.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Mor

[Zoraptor]

Plus, if you're going to pull the 'Hamas militarises civilians so hitting them is OK' card you'd have to explain exactly how having Conscription doesn't militarise Israel's civilians. Israeli reservists 'hide amongst the population' etc etc.

 

But yeah, I think anyone and everyone on the planet would prefer Hamas's terrorist barrage to being hit precisely and surgically by Israel. Funny in a way, someone actually leaked the Israeli PR bible (rather prosaically named the Global Language Dictionary) a few years back and it's patently obvious that it's genuine since they still hit every single talking point. It's also at least partly responsible for my immense scepticism towards anything advanced by western spokesmen, they all use the same basic methodology and I loathe people trying to treat me like an idiot.

 

Still not sure what purpose the phone call warnings do, other than just wrecking property for the sake of it - I suppose it's a carry on to the policy of demolishing suicide bombers' home.

 

And while I can't really be bothered reposting the relevant Geneva Convention clauses again such action definitively is a war crime.

[Malcador]

Also You still haven't answered what in your opinion an appropriate Israel reaction should have been to Hamas raining rockets on their civilians. Surely you don't think that Hamas hold the moral high ground here, that Israel must protect Palestinian civilians at the cost of abandoning her own, or that anyone but Hamas is to blame for its tactics, that use civilian population/infrastructure for military purpose, as shields.

How is Israel abandoning their own civilians by not using heavy ordnance in Gaza, exactly ? They still have their vaunted IDF ground forces, after all. Given Iron Dome's apparent efficiency and Israeli civilians not piling up from other measures, am not seeing why airstrikes are required for this comparison to work - it certainly is done so they don't have more IDF coffins. Is amusing to hear other people comparing this operation to Dresden/Hamburg to make it look more humanitarian though.

 

The talk of human shields is a bit iffy, I'd imagine there's a calculation to be made in terms of the military value of the target vs any risk of civilians being killed (certainly not worth 30 lives to take out 10 rockets, for example). This is assuming the civilians are known to be there, though, though not much of a shield in that case.

 

Doubt either of these parties involved has any claim to a moral high ground

 

And while I can't really be bothered reposting the relevant Geneva Convention clauses again such action definitively is a war crime.

Only the Bad side of the world does those, man.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Malcador

[Mor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qeHvd8Tdmo

 

only a talk show, but pretty much score on all accounts (although the kid is annoying. He is not wrong, but he is trying too hard). "tldr" version, quick summery of some of the points mentioned:

 

* Israel is using missile defense system to protect its citizens and Hamas is using its citizens to protect its missiles.

* Israel is victim of soft bigotry of high expectations.

* The goal is peace. Fighting endless wars is tragedy for both sides.

* Palestinians made very bad choices of their own leaders.

* Palestinians seem like professional refugees.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Mor

[Orogun01]

" Israel is victim of soft bigotry of high expectations."

 

Yes, asking them not to commit genocide is too much.

[Gorgon]

High expectations, isn't that kinda by definition the opposite of biggotry. 

[Malcador]

Good sound bites at least, I especially like the "soft bigotry" one, referencing Bush Jr's old statement.

[Mor]

High expectations, isn't that kinda by definition the opposite of biggotry.

Bigotry is the view of other people based on prejudices (I'd say that some the comments here certainly fall in that category). As for high expectations, you still haven't answered the question I posed to you, concerning your standards for Israel actions i.e. Can you show me any actor in the history of warfare that done more than Israel in that regard? (or even close)

 

IMO it important not to lose perspective, to avoid become emotional tool by media "hype" machine. Concerning high expectations, lets consider Israel's Arab neighbors, surely you are aware of their history and recent developments, but as horrific as they are(and not even remotely resemble anything in Israel), for some reason they do not get as much public outrage in the west as Israels actions. So riddle me this, do you hold Israel to a higher standard than its Arab neighbors or excuse the disproportionate reaction because its Israel. Isn't that kinda by definition racism or bigotry?

 

Also speaking views based on prejudices, which might lead to disproportionate reaction (I hope that the "genocide" thingy was an extreme hyperbole, otherwise that person is a retard) I'd throw in this in to the mix for little context:

Edited July 30, 2014 by Mor

[Malcador]

See, Bruce, what I mean by blue oby ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_United_Nations - but at least came across something new today.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Malcador

[Barothmuk]

U.S media supports Israel.

 

Who'd have thunk it.

[213374U]

I haven't seen this posted ITT, which is surprising.

 

US Stands Alone in Vote Against UN Inquiry Into Gaza Assault

 

(and, of course, its cowardly Euro retainers abstain in the latest vomit-inducing display of servilism)

[Rostere]

Here is a story which can help us to understand what goes on inside the heads of the children which are enduring the current round of indiscriminate bombardment on Gaza.

[Agiel]

How unfortunate that rational politicians have allowed the inertia of public blood-raving to trump practical politics and have dumped onto their mlitaries the problems they do not wish to solve. I hope it eventually occurs to the Israeli government that "mowing the lawn" as it were doesn't constitute sound military strategy.