Update #76: Music in Pillars of Eternity

[Rahelron]

I went a little through the topic and I didn't see an answer to one of my main doubts after listening to the track provided in the OP:

 

Is the game going to have music with real instruments (as it was promised in the stretchgoals) or not?

 

This doesn't mean that I would dislike the game if it wasn't included, but still you promised it... and it would be a great addition... so what about it?

 

If budget restrictions didn't allow for a complete instrumental soundtrack, could you at least record the main themes with real instruments? (Like the final battle, the intro music, the core theme...).

 

Thanks a lot

[JadedWolf]

Music without gameplay really doesn't tell me much. The litmus test would be whether the music fits the atmosphere of a particular environment and the encounters within. For me, the best example of that is in Plancescape Torment, where the music fit so perfectly for every area and every encounter. Take this music:

 

 

Every time I hear it I am almost physically there in Ravel's maze, as it conjurs up exactly the image of that weird razorvine maze that is Ravel's little pocket plane.

[samm]

I went a little through the topic and I didn't see an answer to one of my main doubts after listening to the track provided in the OP:

 

Is the game going to have music with real instruments (as it was promised in the stretchgoals) or not?

 

This doesn't mean that I would dislike the game if it wasn't included, but still you promised it... and it would be a great addition... so what about it?

 

If budget restrictions didn't allow for a complete instrumental soundtrack, could you at least record the main themes with real instruments? (Like the final battle, the intro music, the core theme...).

 

Thanks a lot

As they have very specifically not answered this question that came up multiple times now, I'd bet that the soundtrack will not be played by real instruments. Maybe the main theme or something, but certainly not the whole game - otherwise, the process described in this update would not make sense as a whole anyway.

[Gromnir]

Music without gameplay really doesn't tell me much. The litmus test would be whether the music fits the atmosphere of a particular environment and the encounters within. For me, the best example of that is in Plancescape Torment, where the music fit so perfectly for every area and every encounter. Take this music:

 

 

 

Every time I hear it I am almost physically there in Ravel's maze, as it conjurs up exactly the image of that weird razorvine maze that is Ravel's little pocket plane.

couple quibbles on our part.

 

music w/o gameplay is little different than movie soundtrack w/o movie. sure, you lose some context, but not take too much imagination to fill in the blanks. example: icewind dale theme music for kuldahar or targos.  the gameplay would be walking 'round map o' kuldahar an targos.  yup, kuldahar music woulda' been less appropriate if we were't dealing with a fey environment, but am thinking even w/o wandering around giant tree, one could be impressed by the soule's efforts. 

 

*shrug*

 

and as for planescape... planescape music always annoyed us. is not that music were bad, but the first time we played ps:t, we couldn't help but instantly recognize that the composer for ps:t were obviously also the guy who did music for fallouts... and either he were recycling a great deal, or he had an extreme distinct sound. as a person who played fallout games first, we found planescape music to be... jarring. the music didn't fit perfect for us, 'cause we associated so much o' what we were hearing with the fallouts.  no doubt you has seen hollywood movies wherein the music is recycled. annoying.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps if Torment: Tides of Numenera sounds exact like fallout 2, we is gonna be disappointed... not that such is an obsidian issue. just sayin'

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gromnir

[JadedWolf]

 

 

as for planescape... planescape music always annoyed us. is not that music were bad, but the first time we played ps:t, we couldn't help but instantly recognize that the composer for ps:t were obviously also the guy who did music for fallouts... and either he were recycling a great deal, or he had an extreme distinct sound

 

I think Mark Morgan simply has a very distinct sound, which in my book is a good thing.

[Ffordesoon]

 

Music without gameplay really doesn't tell me much. The litmus test would be whether the music fits the atmosphere of a particular environment and the encounters within. For me, the best example of that is in Plancescape Torment, where the music fit so perfectly for every area and every encounter. Take this music:

 

 

 

Every time I hear it I am almost physically there in Ravel's maze, as it conjurs up exactly the image of that weird razorvine maze that is Ravel's little pocket plane.

 

couple quibbles on our part.

 

music w/o gameplay is little different than movie soundtrack w/o movie. sure, you lose some context, but not take too much imagination to fill in the blanks. example: icewind dale theme music for kuldahar or targos. the gameplay would be walking 'round map o' kuldahar an targos. yup, kuldahar music woulda' been less appropriate if we were't dealing with a fey environment, but am thinking even w/o wandering around giant tree, one could be impressed by the soule's efforts.

 

*shrug*

 

and as for planescape... planescape music always annoyed us. is not that music were bad, but the first time we played ps:t, we couldn't help but instantly recognize that the composer for ps:t were obviously also the guy who did music for fallouts... and either he were recycling a great deal, or he had an extreme distinct sound. as a person who played fallout games first, we found planescape music to be... jarring. the music didn't fit perfect for us, 'cause we associated so much o' what we were hearing with the fallouts. no doubt you has seen hollywood movies wherein the music is recycled. annoying.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps if Torment: Tides of Numenera sounds exact like fallout 2, we is gonna be disappointed... not that such is an obsidian issue. just sayin'

That's weird. I know it's the same guy, but the two scores are pretty distinct. Planescape is heavy on melodic themes, whereas Fallout is almost all ambeint soundscapes with no distinct melody. I suppose I can see your point, but I can't agree that they sound "the same."

 

It's also worth noting that PST's soundtrack was more or less rushed by the publisher.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Ffordesoon

[Gromnir]

am not doubting that ps:t were rushed. listen to ambient music in sigil and then compare to similar music in fallout 2, in particular. is same, or so close as not to make much difference. have a distinct sound is ok, but not so much when very different games is given feel o' sameness. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

"It's also worth noting that PST's soundtrack was more or less rushed by the publisher."

 

You realize that the developer and the publisher were one and the same, right?

[Gromnir]

"It's also worth noting that PST's soundtrack was more or less rushed by the publisher."

 

You realize that the developer and the publisher were one and the same, right?

most fans has a knee-jerk when dealing with obsidian... all flaws is result o' rush by publisher. probably doesn't help with tim cain in house neither... get troika fans jumping on-board.

 

am suspecting that what he means is that original composer were dumped at some point during development. Morgan were brought in late to cobble something together after the initial fail.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[JadedWolf]

All Morgan's jobs on the various Black Isle games were rushjobs.

 

From an interview:

 

Michael: There are rumors that you only had a couple of weeks to write the music for Planescape: Torment. Is that so? What was your time frame on Fallout and Fallout 2, and when did you start working on these projects?

Mark Morgan: Yes, on all three games I began late in the process... Planescape: Torment was a quick turnaround as you suggest. I did it in about 2 weeks. I don’t know why, but the game was pretty much completed before they decided who was to do the music. On Fallout they had another composer to begin with, but for unknown reasons, Charles Deenen called me to work on it and it too was a fast turnaround. Composing time for Fallout 2 was also truncated. I believe the game was essentially complete by the time I became involved and they were in a hurry to get it out.

 

http://www.game-ost.com/articles.php?id=24&action=view

 

(Even so, I absolutely love the PS:T soundtrack)

Edited April 21, 2014 by JadedWolf

[Gromnir]

speaking of rush jobs and recycling

 

 

and 

 

 

Brian Tyler did soundtrack for children o' dune in one month. kinda a funny aside, Tyler claimed that lyrics for inama nushif is in freman, which he compiled through studious examinations o' Herbert's books. 'course Herbert only ever included about 5 words in imaginary freman into his books. turns out that Tyler stole from some kinda dune encyclopedia... didn't give credit. the freman language he actually were using were from an excerpt that a contributor, an expert on arabic languages, made to the dune encyclopedia. anywho, tyler lifts a block o' imagined freman text, added some gibberish where he felt necessary, and then took credit for self.

 

...

 

nice song though.

 

oh, as to recycling, portions o' the children o' dune soundtrack has been used in a number o' big budget hollywood movies, and at least 1 video game. not bad for 1 month o' work.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we edited the post so you could see actual context in which inama nushif were utilized in children of dune. is illustrative of our point about danger o' recycling as now if we hear tyler's work used as some kinda generic sad love song, it doesn't work for us. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gromnir

[Ffordesoon]

"It's also worth noting that PST's soundtrack was more or less rushed by the publisher."

 

You realize that the developer and the publisher were one and the same, right?

An internal development studio at a publisher isn't the same as a publisher. Publishers, you know, publish.

 

That said, Gromnir is correct, that was what I meant. I misremembered it, sorry.

 

@JadedWolf:

 

Interesting! I didn't know the Fallouts were rush jobs too. I thought it was just Planescape.

[Amentep]

All Morgan's jobs on the various Black Isle games were rushjobs.

 

From an interview:

 

Michael: There are rumors that you only had a couple of weeks to write the music for Planescape: Torment. Is that so? What was your time frame on Fallout and Fallout 2, and when did you start working on these projects?

 

Mark Morgan: Yes, on all three games I began late in the process... Planescape: Torment was a quick turnaround as you suggest. I did it in about 2 weeks. I don’t know why, but the game was pretty much completed before they decided who was to do the music. On Fallout they had another composer to begin with, but for unknown reasons, Charles Deenen called me to work on it and it too was a fast turnaround. Composing time for Fallout 2 was also truncated. I believe the game was essentially complete by the time I became involved and they were in a hurry to get it out.

 

http://www.game-ost.com/articles.php?id=24&action=view

 

(Even so, I absolutely love the PS:T soundtrack)

 

Is that the explanation for why that end credits song on PST sounds like its from a different game?  I'd always wondered about that.

[JadedWolf]

 

All Morgan's jobs on the various Black Isle games were rushjobs.

 

From an interview:

 

Michael: There are rumors that you only had a couple of weeks to write the music for Planescape: Torment. Is that so? What was your time frame on Fallout and Fallout 2, and when did you start working on these projects?

 

Mark Morgan: Yes, on all three games I began late in the process... Planescape: Torment was a quick turnaround as you suggest. I did it in about 2 weeks. I don’t know why, but the game was pretty much completed before they decided who was to do the music. On Fallout they had another composer to begin with, but for unknown reasons, Charles Deenen called me to work on it and it too was a fast turnaround. Composing time for Fallout 2 was also truncated. I believe the game was essentially complete by the time I became involved and they were in a hurry to get it out.

 

http://www.game-ost.com/articles.php?id=24&action=view

 

(Even so, I absolutely love the PS:T soundtrack)

 

Is that the explanation for why that end credits song on PST sounds like its from a different game?  I'd always wondered about that.

 

 

The credits track and a few others are actually by Richard Band, and had nothing to do with Mark Morgan.

 

Another one of his tracks is the track played in the Smoldering Corpse Bar.

 

 

Here is a list with all the tracks, by the way. You can see which composer did which track.

 

http://planescape.outshine.com/index5b56.html?page=soundtrack

Edited April 22, 2014 by JadedWolf

[Amentep]

You know, I knew that at one point and forgot. Oops!

 

I can remember **** that happened on Black Isle's forum a decade ago, but I can't remember something about one of their actual games...kinda sad, actually.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Amentep

[Trodat]

Here's a few awesome tracks from Final Fantasy XI. No other MMO has anything comparable in terms of music IMO.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0rYk83Rt0A

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TnSMXcp2Hg

 

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLRpjmwv7o4

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And there are many more.

[Gromnir]

You know, I knew that at one point and forgot. Oops!

 

I can remember **** that happened on Black Isle's forum a decade ago, but I can't remember something about one of their actual games...kinda sad, actually.

we were an infrequent observer o' the ps:t forum and extreme rare participant. am doubting music were a huge factor for us at the time. we liked the music used in the ps:t trailer, but that were Not Mike Morgan.

 

iwd is the game that kinda opened our eyes (ears?) to the possibilities o' great game music. previously, we were only concerned when the music were noticeably bad. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[nonfactor]

Sounds like those Dyrford villagers know how to party; hearing this brings to mind images of...foam, and glowing things, and ale...

[Amentep]

Well a bit more embarrassing to me since I was the volunteer mod for the PST forum on the BIS board and I'm pretty sure it came up when the soundtrack got brought up...

[AndreaColombo]

I know this update is more about music and composing than it is about the technical aspects of sound, but recently I've had a few questions on my mind and I figured I'd ask. Is the game's sound engine based on OpenAL? Will it support real-time, hardware-accelerated (and/or software-emulated) effects such as occlusion, refraction, diffraction, echo, reverb, etc.? Will there be positional audio?

 

Hope the devs may shed some light on the dark of these matters

[Silenceborn]

Hi There,

 

I am a musician myself and coming from the Eastern background. Originally Persian but studied Western and Eastern musical systems. I also have studied Indian classical music and its profound raga systems. I was wondering if it is possible to add some Eastern musical themes to the game? At least partly. Like the ancient Persian Santoor or Daf which are some very unique instruments with incredible tones, or the Indian Sitar, Sarod, Tabla and many others... I would happily provide some links with the actual playings if the degisners or musicians are interested.

 

Cheers,

Silenceborn

[Cubiq]

That got me wondering, do we know if there will be any Asian-like cultures in the game?

Even if just armor or weapons?

[Niarei]

Soundtrack for PS:T is amazing, imo, it has really distinctive character and tracks fit the world perfectly. And some tracks are just beautiful, take Deionarra or Annah themes for example. 

 

And the fact he made it in 2 weeks is unbelievable! It's about 4 minutes of finished music every day, wow.

 

Didn't know the Smoldering Corpse Bar music was from Richard Band, that track is great too.

 

Cannot believe how fantastic all those soundtracks for BG 1 and 2, IWD, PS:T and Fallout 1 and 2 are. :D

[anameforobsidian]

Hi There,

 

I am a musician myself and coming from the Eastern background. Originally Persian but studied Western and Eastern musical systems. I also have studied Indian classical music and its profound raga systems. I was wondering if it is possible to add some Eastern musical themes to the game? At least partly. Like the ancient Persian Santoor or Daf which are some very unique instruments with incredible tones, or the Indian Sitar, Sarod, Tabla and many others... I would happily provide some links with the actual playings if the degisners or musicians are interested.

 

Cheers,

Silenceborn

I don't know if it would suit the setting, which is pretty standard Early Modern Europe.  That said, I certainly wouldn't mind an expansion pack that was more mid-eastern themed.  As for Asian settings, I've never seen a Western developer do them terribly well.  I certainly wouldn't be averse to Obsidian trying, but I think most Western devs lack the basic understanding to represent the mythology faithfully.

[Silenceborn]

@anameforobsidian

 

Thanks for the repsonse. I assume by Western you mean Western European culture because the Eastern and south European regions and culture are heavily influenced by their Eastern neighbors and were in thousand of years of relationship with them. The Greek and Roman cultures were both influenced and being influenced by the Persian and Indian cultures and traditions. Neoplatonism for instance which was influential in Europe in both art and music, was directly and indirectly influenced by the Persian Zoroastrianism. The Western European music and theme is of course different or at least seem different on the surface but again by the look of the game I did not really got the feeling that the main theme of the game is based on purely Wetern European cultures. In fact some scenes seem pretty Oriental and Eatern to me. Planescape Torment on the other hand is almost an Eastern game with incredible art design and music which really is beyond any cathegorization.

 

I do agree with you about the representation of mythology in the West though, it seems devs in the West do not usually care about the games being profound with deep philosophical messages and perhaps even some deep moral implications. Mythology is usually depicted as primitive stories for primitive people unfortunately. While in actuality mythologies are mirrors in which we can relatively observe own collective subconscious. I do not expect to see a huge change in the industry though as the dominant theme of the Western society in general is the childish debate of religion vs atheism... Sadly very few people know these childish traps and go beyond these anthropocentric viewpoints... Anyway I got a little off-topic and I apologize for it but again I am really interested to see if the devs or musicians are going to add some Easterns themes into the game or not. That way I could probably share some ideas here which in my opinion could very well fit the theme and game environment.

Here are some link which may help give some ideas about the Eastern music which could very well fit into this game:

Persian Nay and Daf by the Ahura Music:

Indian Fusion with Sitar played by the doughter of Ravi Shankar Anoushka Shankar:

Persian Daf ensemble:

 

Another work by Shankar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXtG8o1YrgU

 

North Indian Santoor by the master Shivkumar Sharma:

If interested I would be more than happy to suggest the sample libraries with which it would be easy for a trained musician who is partly familiar with the Eastern musical systems to make some very interesting music to fit the game perfectly.