Support the Ban Bossy campaign

[Valsuelm]

Okay/good sentiment, (I mean, I haven't really seen it happen myself - I've often seen "bossy" applied to both boys and girls...though I'll admit that I can't think of any times I've heard of a girl being called a "good leader", so that probably says something in itself - and I see absolutely no reason not to support either gender as long as it does not elevate one above the other, which I don't think the basic sentiment of this does), doubleplusungood (it seems to me) execution. Let's not 1984 ourselves anymore than need be, okay? Support campaigns that have both good intentions AND good means for those intentions becoming reality. From what I can see of this page, it seems to be at least sort of on target, but I think they should've focused on something - anything, really - besides "ban bossy".

 

P.S: People are getting really bent out of shape over this. 

 

So you think banning a word is a good intentioned thing?

 

Also, really? You've never heard of a female touted as a good leader? If we're talking about a girl, and not a woman than yea.. I could see that. It is a very rare kid indeed that is a good leader. But if we're talking about a woman, that's another story.

 

Granted, good leaders of either sex aren't exactly the majority of the population, but they're out there in both sexes. If you're at all familiar with history there are a number of female leaders who have been considered good. If you're at all familiar with modern politics there are a number of female politicians who have been labeled good leaders (though I'd argue most of them are not, but also argue most male politicians who are called good leaders are not, but that doesn't change the fact that some folks call them that). One could look other places in society as well. Teachers, bosses (should we ban this word too due to it's similarity to 'bossy'?), company leaders, etc. A really good teacher is often a good leader (I've had some really good female teachers that I would call good leaders, haven't you?). You've really never met a female you yourself would call a good leader? That's all it takes to know of one. If you haven't either you don't know very many people or the problem you think is 'out there' is within you.

 

Really... the whole oppressed female thing at this point is 100% hogwash in 2014 U.S.A. and this 'bossy' thing is 100% contrived (take a look at the sponsors for this initiative). Are there oppressed females out there? Heck yea.. and so there also be oppressed males. Usually it isn't a function of their sex why they're oppressed. And genuine sexism goes both ways in this world, just as genuine racism goes multiple ways. But even if women were horribly oppressed, banning words won't undo that oppression. Banning a word has never undone any oppression. Those that would ban a word are interested in controlling your mind, they have no good intentions.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

 

Honestly for me the purpose of the campaign is not about banning the actual word "bossy". Its about encouraging young girls to be confident and to be able to achieve anything in life. But the way the website is marketed  and designed this message is misunderstood, all people see is that the website is suggesting " we ban the word bossy"  and somehow that is going help with gender equality. I am normally happy to debate these types of issues by myself and I was prepared to explain this over and over again but when Hurlshot also didn't get it then I realized that this type of message using this type of mechanism would never achieve its purpose.

 

Remember also bare in mind certain people on this website will always reject and joke about any discussion around topics like gender equality, I have come to accept that and its fine. But whatever the campaign or initiative is you have to have  a message that your average person understands and is prepared to support. That is why I disengaged from this discussion

 

 

Maybe they should have used the 'ban bossy' message as being something attributed to both boys and girls. Like don't be bossy, be a leader to both genders. That would have been a better message. And not single out one gender as being bossy (girls) and comparing it to leadership with another (boys) when they say the exact same thing. The fact is that they don't actually give an example of that same exact thing. It's deceptive hyperbole.

 

But then I guess it would come across as another type of anti-bullying encouragement building site and drown in the hundreds of other anti-bullying encouragement building websites if it was aimed at both genders. Easier to aim it at one gender and get the emotional responses that it's received.

 

 

I hear you but the reality is that generally there aren't any cases where young boys grow up thinking they don't have the ability to achieve there full potential.  There is much more encouragement for young boys to become leaders of industry for example. So the campaign is aimed at young girls as this is where the confidence problem lies for a variety of reasons

[Malcador]

Did they quote statistics identifying this as a problem, by the way ?

[Bartimaeus]

 

Okay/good sentiment, (I mean, I haven't really seen it happen myself - I've often seen "bossy" applied to both boys and girls...though I'll admit that I can't think of any times I've heard of a girl being called a "good leader", so that probably says something in itself - and I see absolutely no reason not to support either gender as long as it does not elevate one above the other, which I don't think the basic sentiment of this does), doubleplusungood (it seems to me) execution. Let's not 1984 ourselves anymore than need be, okay? Support campaigns that have both good intentions AND good means for those intentions becoming reality. From what I can see of this page, it seems to be at least sort of on target, but I think they should've focused on something - anything, really - besides "ban bossy".

 

P.S: People are getting really bent out of shape over this. 

 

So you think banning a word is a good intentioned thing?

 

Also, really? You've never heard of a female touted as a good leader? If we're talking about a girl, and not a woman than yea.. I could see that. It is a very rare kid indeed that is a good leader. But if we're talking about a woman, that's another story.

 

Uh, you're joking, right? I mentioned 1984...I said "doubleplusungood"...I said I didn't particularly care for the execution...

 

No, I have not. But to be fair to adult women, I don't often hear "bossy", either - instead, I think it's almost always "controlling" or "control"-something...which is also applied a lot to adult men.

 

(e: a comma)

 

(e: P.S. I didn't respond to the rest of what you said, because I more or less agree. More or less. The only thing I see myself disagreeing with is the "100% hogwash" bit - I still think there are definitely some problems, (whether large or small)...in regards to both males AND females. I'm not entirely certain that this particular one is - but nor am I convinced of the opposite, and therefore I feel like it's well-intentioned SO LONG as it does not elevate one gender over the other, which I don't feel like it's doing. And as long as it isn't for retarded stuff like actually really banning words, which is why I said what I said in my previous post. )

Edited March 13, 2014 by Bartimaeus

[Hiro Protagonist]

I hear you but the reality is that generally there aren't any cases where young boys grow up thinking they don't have the ability to achieve there full potential.  There is much more encouragement for young boys to become leaders of industry for example. So the campaign is aimed at young girls as this is where the confidence problem lies for a variety of reasons

 

What does that even mean. Achieve their full potential? I imagine not many people get to achieve their full potential in life, regardless if they're male or female.

[BruceVC]

Did they quote statistics identifying this as a problem, by the way ?

 

I don't know Malc, why don't you go to the website and confirm this? They do make some general comments like " young girls self-esteem drops 3.5 times more than a boys by high school" but it would be very difficult to give accurate statistics

[Hiro Protagonist]

Did they quote statistics identifying this as a problem, by the way ?

 

Statistics? No need for that. Some people would have you believe that a thesis was done on this.

[Valsuelm]

 

Uh, you're joking, right? I mentioned 1984...I said "doubleplusungood"...I said I didn't particularly care for the execution...

 

No, I have not. But to be fair to adult women, I don't often hear "bossy", either - instead, I think it's almost always "controlling" or "control"-something...which is also applied a lot to adult men.

 

(e: a comma)

 

(e: P.S. I didn't respond to the rest of what you said, because I more or less agree. More or less. The only thing I see myself disagreeing with is the "100% hogwash" bit - I still think there are definitely some problems, (whether large or small)...in regards to both males AND females. I'm not entirely certain that this particular one is - but nor am I convinced of the opposite, and therefore I feel like it's well-intentioned SO LONG as it does not elevate one gender over the other, which I don't feel like it's doing. And as long as it isn't for retarded stuff like actually really banning words, which is why I said what I said in my previous post. )

 

 

My apologies. I misread to a certain extent what you wrote, I think in part due to the extended ().

[Bartimaeus]

I hear you but the reality is that generally there aren't any cases where young boys grow up thinking they don't have the ability to achieve there full potential.  There is much more encouragement for young boys to become leaders of industry for example. So the campaign is aimed at young girls as this is where the confidence problem lies for a variety of reasons

 

 

Whoa, whoa...what?   I'm pretty sure *anyone* can have problems of the sort that you just mentioned, regardless of gender...myself as an example who is also a guy who has felt pretty directionless and not very confident since the day I was born...  (e: your post after this sounds less extreme than what I quoted, where you just said there are generally NO cases where a guy could have problems of this sort...so I'll forgive you, Bruce, so long as you don't go to such extremes again, . That's not to say I necessarily agree, but again, as always, I try to maintain a position of neutrality, because really, I just can't say I know one way or another...so I don't disagree either. )

 

@Valsuelm: no problem.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

I hear you but the reality is that generally there aren't any cases where young boys grow up thinking they don't have the ability to achieve there full potential.  There is much more encouragement for young boys to become leaders of industry for example. So the campaign is aimed at young girls as this is where the confidence problem lies for a variety of reasons

 

What does that even mean. Achieve their full potential? I imagine not many people get to achieve their full potential in life, regardless if they're male or female.

 

 

Okay let me explain it better because I see how that could be confusing. I'll give you a practical example, because the confidence of young girls is diminished through various reasons they aren't as likely as young boys to apply for certain jobs or think they could become a CEO of a fortune 500 company. This doesn't mean they would necessarily get the job if they applied, But they don't even think they have a chance. Yet men are more likely to apply for a particular  job and not think they won't get the job because inherently this is a job that only a particular gender can do. I hope I have explained this properly

[Volourn]

"I honestly cannot say that I have ever seen someone so thoroughly fail to grasp what comes across as such a straight forward and simple assertion. You're right that bossy and leader aren't the same... so tick one on failure at critical thinking. The thesis provided is that boys will do a particular act (whatever that act is) and be called a leader for it, while a girl doing that exact same act will more likely be called bossy."

 

The entire premise is ridiculous and sexist. It's trash plain and simple.. Anyone who takes it seriously doesn't know anything worthwhile on the subject.

 

LMAO
 

[Hiro Protagonist]

 

Okay let me explain it better because I see how that could be confusing. I'll give you a practical example, because the confidence of young girls is diminished through various reasons they aren't as likely as young boys to apply for certain jobs or think they could become a CEO of a fortune 500 company. This doesn't mean they would necessarily get the job if they applied, But they don't even think they have a chance. Yet men are more likely to apply for a particular  job and not think they won't get the job because inherently this is a job that only a particular gender can do. I hope I have explained this properly

 

 

I have no idea whether that's true or not. I don't know how you can measure 'confidence' and I don't think it's confidence that's the entire problem. There's more to it. What you've described is a stereotype and can equally apply to a lot of males in that example. For example, swap the gender around in your example and it can still apply. I think you may be confusing 'confidence' with applicants and 'prejudice' from employers which may be a reason why a female didn't get the job - but that is also a stereotype too.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[Valsuelm]

Ya know, 'bossy' is minor league on the sexist scale if we're to believe it's sexist. Or if we're to assume that there are sexist words to begin with.

 

Let's talk about the word 'bitch'.

 

If you call a woman a bitch it generally has different meaning than if we call a man a bitch. Is that bad?

 

Should we ban it due to the differences? Will we need to come up with another singular word for a female dog?

 

What singular word will we use in lieu of 'bitch' to get our meaning across if someone is one?

 

What word will we use instead of 'bitch' to describe someone who is using it in it's verbal capacity?

 

What singular word will we use instead of 'bossy' to describe someone who is being such?

 

Will banning either of these words solve any problem at all? Will banning either of these words create problems? Will banning either of these words not limit the vernacular of the mind? Does limiting the vernacular of the mind limit it's capabilities?

 

Does limiting the vernacular of a people limit their abilities to communicate effectively?

 

How do we ban these words? Make it a crime to utter them? What will be the punishment?

How do we do this when such a thing as the First Amendment exists? Should we just ignore the First Amendment when we want to?
 

Do we just socially ostracize someone who dares utter these words? Is socially ostracizing someone who would use one of these words a good thing? Is socially ostracizing anyone for saying a word a good thing? Is socially ostracizing anyone ever a good thing?

Edited March 13, 2014 by Valsuelm

[BruceVC]

 

 

Okay let me explain it better because I see how that could be confusing. I'll give you a practical example, because the confidence of young girls is diminished through various reasons they aren't as likely as young boys to apply for certain jobs or think they could become a CEO of a fortune 500 company. This doesn't mean they would necessarily get the job if they applied, But they don't even think they have a chance. Yet men are more likely to apply for a particular  job and not think they won't get the job because inherently this is a job that only a particular gender can do. I hope I have explained this properly

 

 

I have no idea whether that's true or not. I don't know how you can measure 'confidence' and I don't think it's confidence that's the entire problem. There's more to it. What you've described is a stereotype and can equally apply to a lot of males in that example. I think you may be confusing 'confidence' with applicants and 'prejudice' from employers which may be a reason why a female didn't get the job - but that is also a stereotype too.

 

 

Either I'm not explaining my point properly or you are not understanding it. I'll try one more time. The issue is not that Fortune 500 companies don't hire enough females or promote females to leadership positions  ( though this is a problem but not the purpose of this debate) the issue is some young girls when they want to be assertive are called "bossy" and this is a negative description that impacts how they feel about themselves. The result of this is these young girls when they become adults don't apply for certain jobs to try to do certain things in life because they have belief from there youth that they won't get them purely because they are female

 

Its not necessarily prejudice from the company or the big corporation but the fact they lack confidence or they have been raised a certain way and have a perception around there role in society

 

This for me is the most important point of the website  and not the banning of the word "bossy"

[Hiro Protagonist]

Either I'm not explaining my point properly or you are not understanding it. I'll try one more time. The issue is not that Fortune 500 companies don't hire enough females or promote females to leadership positions  ( though this is a problem but not the purpose of this debate) the issue is some young girls when they want to be assertive are called "bossy" and this is a negative description that impacts how they feel about themselves. The result of this is these young girls when they become adults don't apply for certain jobs to try to do certain things in life because they have belief from there youth that they won't get them purely because they are female

 

Its not necessarily prejudice from the company or the big corporation but the fact they lack confidence or they have been raised a certain way and have a perception around there role in society

 

This for me is the most important point of the website  and not the banning of the word "bossy"

 

 

First problem. Are they being assertive or are they being bossy? They may very well are being bossy and not assertive. Can you give real life examples of how a girl is being assertive and then being labelled bossy? No? The site doesn't either! The site doesn't even give a hypothetical example. It gives no examples at all. Just accept it, okay? Trust us!

 

Second problem. Are they not applying for jobs in their adult years because they were labelled as bossy when they were kids? Or are there other reasons why they didn't have the confidence for not applying for that job? Is it because they might not get the job believing they don't have the necessary skills and nothing to do with labels from their childhood? Is there other reasons why they didn't apply for the job or other reasons why they didn't have the confidence to apply?

 

It's a huge leap to say most/all adult women don't apply for jobs because of something that happened in their youth. I suspect it's probably other reasons than being called bossy when they were 10 years old. Not to say some girls aren't teased during their school years, given names like bossy and this carries over to adulthood. There are cases of people who haven't had a good time during their school years and this has affected their adult life. I suspect there are other reasons at play why a lot of women don't apply for jobs and not what happened during their school years.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[BruceVC]

 

I hear you but the reality is that generally there aren't any cases where young boys grow up thinking they don't have the ability to achieve there full potential.  There is much more encouragement for young boys to become leaders of industry for example. So the campaign is aimed at young girls as this is where the confidence problem lies for a variety of reasons

 

 

Whoa, whoa...what?   I'm pretty sure *anyone* can have problems of the sort that you just mentioned, regardless of gender...myself as an example who is also a guy who has felt pretty directionless and not very confident since the day I was born...  (e: your post after this sounds less extreme than what I quoted, where you just said there are generally NO cases where a guy could have problems of this sort...so I'll forgive you, Bruce, so long as you don't go to such extremes again, . That's not to say I necessarily agree, but again, as always, I try to maintain a position of neutrality, because really, I just can't say I know one way or another...so I don't disagree either. )

 

@Valsuelm: no problem.

 

 

 

 

Barti, neutrality is fine and yes I agree that young boys can have confidence problems and also not apply for certain jobs because of it. But I doubt the main reason for this lack of confidence is due to them believing it's because of there gender and the result of this is they believe they won't get a certain job or be able to have a certain role in society

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

 

Barti, neutrality is fine and yes I agree that young boys can have confidence problems and also not apply for certain jobs because of it. But I doubt the main reason for this lack of confidence is due to them believing it's because of there gender and the result of this is they believe they won't get a certain job or be able to have a certain role in society

 

 

You haven't watched the videos I linked earlier have you?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

You haven't watched the videos I linked earlier have you?

 

 

After the video screaming about how the spiritual successors of the ancient german marxist jews do everything in order to manipulate the media, I think he didn't miss much.

[sorophx]

Condoleezza Rice is involved in that = no support from me 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

Barti, neutrality is fine and yes I agree that young boys can have confidence problems and also not apply for certain jobs because of it. But I doubt the main reason for this lack of confidence is due to them believing it's because of there gender and the result of this is they believe they won't get a certain job or be able to have a certain role in society

 

 

You haven't watched the videos I linked earlier have you?

 

 

No I haven't, I don't think videos carry that much credibility. I prefer links with references like that link you provided about effectiveness of sanctions against South Africa

[Kroney]

In the words of the famous philosopher "bitches be trippin'"

[Malcador]

 

 

Did they quote statistics identifying this as a problem, by the way ?

I don't know Malc, why don't you go to the website and confirm this? They do make some general comments like " young girls self-esteem drops 3.5 times more than a boys by high school" but it would be very difficult to give accurate statistics

Was on my phone and preparing to sleep at the time, else I would have checked, simpleton.

 

So no solid way of knowing if their lead in is actually a problem.

[Malcador]

 

You fail to grasp the tenets of modern feminism, I'll help you.

Women are perfect, if a woman has a flaw the fault lies with the Patriarchy.

A woman can do anything a man does but does not need to do it or be capable of doing it and should regardless be considered equal.

All men are rapists and oppressors, therefore men cannot be considered to suffer of anything a woman can because of their privilege.

 

Are you getting the picture?

Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it.

(Successful troll attempt though, since reading it literally pissed me off! \o/)

 

Heh, why is that a 'troll attempt' and not just his opinion ? And really, there are feminists out there that believe that stuff (not a large amount, but for some reason, like everywhere else, the yahoos are the ones broadcasting)

[BruceVC]

 

 

You fail to grasp the tenets of modern feminism, I'll help you.

Women are perfect, if a woman has a flaw the fault lies with the Patriarchy.

A woman can do anything a man does but does not need to do it or be capable of doing it and should regardless be considered equal.

All men are rapists and oppressors, therefore men cannot be considered to suffer of anything a woman can because of their privilege.

 

Are you getting the picture?

Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it.

(Successful troll attempt though, since reading it literally pissed me off! \o/)

 

Heh, why is that a 'troll attempt' and not just his opinion ? And really, there are feminists out there that believe that stuff (not a large amount, but for some reason, like everywhere else, the yahoos are the ones broadcasting)

 

 

If its not a Troll attempt then it demonstrates a completely dismissive and exaggerated view of the issue of gender equality and is equally annoying.

[Malcador]

Don't think he's actually commenting on gender equality, just seems to be making a jab at one (part of one) side in the fight.  Amusing that that got anyone pissed off, but oh well.