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You honestly don't see the fantastic structure in a game where your unit fights better the more tolerant they are? That's a fantastic blend of narrative and storytelling.

 

In other news, EA is out of the runnings for Worst Company because apparently people woke up.

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I think i'd rather see a game where the soldier comes out as gay and the other characters respond with "dude who cares we have more important things to worry about than who you banged last week"

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Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.

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On trannies in GTA5: "These women are wearing ridiculous clothing. The artists spent time drawing visible bulges in their skirts and underwear, and their occupation is that of a prostitute, which we are led to believe is degrading."

 

Obvious satire.  Everyone knows that a career in transexual prostitution is the ultimate path to self worth and empowerment in our society. 

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I think i'd rather see a game where the soldier comes out as gay and the other characters respond with "dude who cares we have more important things to worry about than who you banged last week"

You do realize that the game's message would not be literally that coming out to your squadmates makes everyone fight better?

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I don't get this industry sometimes, he says that we need more diversity because games are role models for children but whenever there is a shooting then games are for adults.

They criticize a game as being misogynistic just because of a semi naked woman and completely disregard all the violence within it and worse, at times they pass an opportunity to deal with real negative issues because they rather whine about how fictional characters make them feel inadequate.

 

I keep hoping that it will die down and people will realize this insanity for what it is but I'm beginning to lose hope. 

 

I think people feel the need to fight for/against something, because it makes them feel like they are doing something that matters, but the problem is that the only thing they are able to do is try and enact change in the pathetically insignificant problems that in the grand ****-hole of things that are wrong in this world, don't even matter. I mean they are not Bill Gates who is trying to exterminate malaria, so they settle for making minorities not feel left out when playing games. Which is not a bad thing, but it irks me to no end when they make it out to be a grand crusade that will save the world.

 

You don't need to be Bill Gates in order to do something good, if you care enough about an issue you devote your life to it not just your money. That's why there are relief workers and people who work in animal rescue.

Anyways, we now resume your scheduled game newscast.

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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How about a game where "a soldier comes out as gay" and the rest of the squad aren't that bothered. Because they weren't bothered before and not bothered after.

 

Social Justice Warriors. Sigh.

 

Presumably the whole world is full of bigots who need rescuing by video games designers.

 

You don't care about development companies that create games that represent gay characters as there way of addressing this type of social injustice , you don't think there is a problem in society. So please stop pretending that you actually want a game that " has a gay soldier that the rest of the squad aren't bothered with". I know its good to have  people to "like" your posts in these forums but its patronizing to see you feign an interest in something we both know doesn't concern you. In fact the whole discussion about the correct representation of minority groups in games irritates you.

 

No one has ever said that people who believe in social justice, like me, think the world is full of bigots. But there is a problem around discrimination and bigotry that exists in many aspects of society and we address this through different mediums. And by including groups of people that do get discriminated  against in RL  in video games we hopefully get people to realize that "its okay to be gay ". This doesn't diminish you as a person to be gay. I get it you and others don't agree or understand why its relevant to have gay representation in games but that doesn't change its importance.

 

And you can't seriously think that in intuitions like the USA army the question around your sexual orientation is still not an issue on some levels. The infamous " Don't ask, don't tell " was only officially ended 3 years ago

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask,_don%27t_tell

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I find it hard to understood why anyone would be opposed to better representation of minorities and women in videogames.

 

Same here, the common argument on these forums seems to be "you don't need  to force these changes in games to make a difference"

 

I reject this as by including minorities and groups of people that have been traditionally discriminated against you help to change the perception

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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You don't care about development companies that create games that represent gay characters as there way of addressing this type of social injustice, you don't think there is a problem in society.

 

Bruce look at my posting history on the topic of gay rights in WoT. Then apologise for that comment.

 

 

 

So please stop pretending that you actually want a game that " has a gay soldier that the rest of the squad aren't bothered with". I know its good to have  people to "like" your posts in these forums but its patronizing to see you feign an interest in something we both know doesn't concern you. In fact the whole discussion about the correct representation of minority groups in games irritates you.

 

I have no problem with characters of any sexual orientation in games. What I don't like is patronising, politically-correct BS. Do you remember Nancy Reagan's 'Just Say No' campaign in the 80's? Entertainment that had to carry an orthodox political message of the day (vis a vis drugs)? Well strangely this Bioware developer's comments remind me of that. "Your entertainment has to have a morally enervating message, it's good for you." I ain't paying for that.

 

The best way to represent gay characters in games? Make it no big deal. Don't moralise and don't patronise. Do you have any idea how awful the design concept of our-unit-is-more-awesome-now-we-celebrate-diversity is?

 

Now put your strawman away. You don't own this issue. Those of us who don't ride libtard hooby-horses are as entitled to comment as those who do.

 

 

 

No one has ever said that people who believe in social justice, like me, think the world is full of bigots. But there is a problem around discrimination and bigotry that exists in many aspects of society and we address this through different mediums. And by including groups of people that do get discriminated  against in RL  in video games we hopefully get people to realize that "its okay to be gay ".

 

You are riding a hobby horse, it's just a high hobby horse.

 

 

 

his doesn't diminish you as a person to be gay.

 

No sh1t, Sherlock. Who is being patronising now?

 

 

 

I get it you and others don't agree or understand why its relevant to have gay representation in games but that doesn't change its importance.

 

What did I say about that strawman? Apology please.

 

You need to understand that tolerance works in different ways. Your Khmer Rouge education camp variety (doomed to failure) and a more easy-going version like mine (coming from what I like to call 'The Reality-Based Community).

 

 

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I find it hard to understood why anyone would be opposed to better representation of minorities and women in videogames.

 

Same here, the common argument on these forums seems to be "you don't need  to force these changes in games to make a difference"

 

I reject this as by including minorities and groups of people that have been traditionally discriminated against you help to change the perception

 

 

*My* argument "against" explicitly including social issues is that they're very much linked to the time and place where they occur.

 

For example: being gay is pretty much no big deal for the majority of the population here (I'm Belgian, our prime minister is gay. Seriously: pretty much nobody cared, it wasn't even mentioned in the news, I had to read on some international site that apparently he was the first homosexual country leader ever in the world. The fact that he was Orlesian, err, French speaking, now that was an issue worth writing about!). So any game about a squad of straight guys with one gay person in it is likely just not going to "click" here, just like a game that talks about the French-Dutch language issues in this country is likely not going to work too well abroad (while here it can be argued to be a much bigger issue than gay rights or gay perception).

 

The other one is if you want your game to still be played in 10years the issue you might be advocating about now might have gone away entirely, or the perception changed radically making the story elements awkward or alien (one of the reasons old books are often really weird to read, our entire "cadre" has changed in such a way that we can't properly frame the things they're talking about anymore).

 

Does that mean you shouldn't include lesbians, gypsies, gays and what-have-you in your games? Of course not, but making them into an explicit social commentary is risky and I'm not all that sure it's such a good thing to do. I mean, the gay romances in BioWare games, while oft mentioned are pretty well done in the sense that they're not bound to any local issues, the characters don't make a big deal out if it themselves. The fact that they're there is already promoting acceptance, I don't feel turning them into an explicit social commentary would help anything, rather the contrary.

Edited by marelooke
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I get it you and others don't agree or understand why its relevant to have gay representation in games but that doesn't change its importance.

 

What did I say about that strawman? Apology please.

 

You need to understand that tolerance works in different ways. Your Khmer Rouge education camp variety (doomed to failure) and a more easy-going version like mine (coming from what I like to call 'The Reality-Based Community).

 

 

 

 

I don't understand your point, you seem to contridict yourself around issues of social justice. Lets keep this simple, the relevant and reasonable speech by Manveer Heir basically challanged Developers to start to looking at ways to make games more inclusive of minority groups. He also wants to break stereotypes when these minority grous are represented in games. He believes  "There are numerous studies to suggest that repeated exposure to stereotypes through media can change an individual's perception of their identity, Heir argued. By perpetuating stereotypes, designers play a small part in sustaining damaging ideas. Heir admits that games are but one aspect of this hugely complex social problem, but said the problem should be tackled wherever possible. We can change this today."

 

I agree 100 % with him, what do you not agree with based on his opinion and what he said?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I find it hard to understood why anyone would be opposed to better representation of minorities and women in videogames.

 

Same here, the common argument on these forums seems to be "you don't need  to force these changes in games to make a difference"

 

I reject this as by including minorities and groups of people that have been traditionally discriminated against you help to change the perception

 

 

*My* argument "against" explicitly including social issues is that they're very much linked to the time and place where they occur.

 

For example: being gay is pretty much no big deal for the majority of the population here (I'm Belgian, our prime minister is gay. Seriously: pretty much nobody cared, it wasn't even mentioned in the news, I had to read on some international site that apparently he was the first homosexual country leader ever in the world. The fact that he was Orlesian, err, French speaking, now that was an issue worth writing about!). So any game about a squad of straight guys with one gay person in it is likely just not going to "click" here, just like a game that talks about the French-Dutch language issues in this country is likely not going to work too well abroad (while here it can be argued to be a much bigger issue than gay rights or gay perception).

 

The other one is if you want your game to still be played in 10years the issue you might be advocating about now might have gone away entirely, or the perception changed radically making the story elements awkward or alien (one of the reasons old books are often really weird to read, our entire "cadre" has changed in such a way that we can't properly frame the things they're talking about anymore).

 

Does that mean you shouldn't include lesbians, gypsies, gays and what-have-you in your games? Of course not, but making them into an explicit social commentary is risky and I'm not all that sure it's such a good thing to do. I mean, the gay romances in BioWare games, while oft mentioned are pretty well done in the sense that they're not bound to any local issues, the characters don't make a big deal out if it themselves. The fact that they're there is already promoting acceptance, I don't feel turning them into an explicit social commentary would help anything, rather the contrary.

 

 

In the context of what Manveer Heir said how is this type social commentary risky or in any way a bad thing around changes to stereotypes in games and in the way that games become more inclusive of minority groups? I don't understand your objection to what he said ?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Forced sympathy is the worst kind of sympathy because it's implanted rather than acquired. I'm kind of shocked you'd support such artificial and medieval methods.

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Perkele, tiädäksää tuanoini!

"It's easier to tolerate idiots if you do not consider them as stupid people, but exceptionally gifted monkeys."

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In the context of what Manveer Heir said how is this type social commentary risky or in any way a bad thing around changes to stereotypes in games and in the way that games become more inclusive of minority groups? I don't understand your objection to what he said ?

 

In games where the protagonist is a blank slate, making him fully customizable is not difficult. But in a game in which the main character has an identity and the story is set, it's much more difficult. So is it worth it to have a worse game, just to be able pander to people of all colors and minorities. Not to mention that having the main character be gay would probably alienate the majority of the player base.

Edited by Sarex
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I get it you and others don't agree or understand why its relevant to have gay representation in games but that doesn't change its importance.

 

What did I say about that strawman? Apology please.

 

You need to understand that tolerance works in different ways. Your Khmer Rouge education camp variety (doomed to failure) and a more easy-going version like mine (coming from what I like to call 'The Reality-Based Community).

 

 

 

 

I don't understand your point, you seem to contridict yourself around issues of social justice. Lets keep this simple, the relevant and reasonable speech by Manveer Heir basically challanged Developers to start to looking at ways to make games more inclusive of minority groups. He also wants to break stereotypes when these minority grous are represented in games. He believes  "There are numerous studies to suggest that repeated exposure to stereotypes through media can change an individual's perception of their identity, Heir argued. By perpetuating stereotypes, designers play a small part in sustaining damaging ideas. Heir admits that games are but one aspect of this hugely complex social problem, but said the problem should be tackled wherever possible. We can change this today."

 

I agree 100 % with him, what do you not agree with based on his opinion and what he said?

 

There are two things about stereotypes; the first is whether a stereotype is a myth or well funded observation of idiosyncratic behavior. That African Americans have assimilated gangbanging and crime into their culture is not a stereotype. That's not all they are but for some it is entirely how they know them, if a writer cares about fair representation they cannot substitute one for the other. Even worse, they cannot sweep the real world issue under the rug just cause they have changed their perception.

Secondly, I believe in artistic freedom and no good game should suffer a bad review just because the reviewer was a feminist who couldn't separate themselves from their biased worldview enough to see if what the game did was good or not. Writers and game designers should not have to thread as if they were in a glass floor for fear that they might be accused of misogyny, blacklisted, or their game suffer a lower score because of the aforementioned reasons. 

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I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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I asked a friend of mine, who is Gay, what she thought of the coming-out soldier idea.*

 

Her reply? "Only a straight guy would have thought of BS like that."

 

 

 

* Hey Bruce, it's the forum bigot, MC, who was the best man at her civil partnership ceremony.

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In the context of what Manveer Heir said how is this type social commentary risky or in any way a bad thing around changes to stereotypes in games and in the way that games become more inclusive of minority groups? I don't understand your objection to what he said ?

 

In games where the protagonist is a blank slate, making him fully customizable is not difficult. But in a game in which the main character has an identity and the story is set, it's much more difficult. So is it worth it to have a worse game, just to be able pander to people of all colors and minorities. Not to mention that having the main character be gay would probably alienate the majority of the player base.

 

 

In your view why would having a character as gay alienate the player base? Why would this alienate the player base, I am interested in the exact reasons you feel this would happen? The reality is the ideal situation is a choice of characters to play but I am interested in your input anyway.

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I find it hard to understood why anyone would be opposed to better representation of minorities and women in videogames.

 

Same here, the common argument on these forums seems to be "you don't need  to force these changes in games to make a difference"

 

I reject this as by including minorities and groups of people that have been traditionally discriminated against you help to change the perception

 

 

*My* argument "against" explicitly including social issues is that they're very much linked to the time and place where they occur.

 

For example: being gay is pretty much no big deal for the majority of the population here (I'm Belgian, our prime minister is gay. Seriously: pretty much nobody cared, it wasn't even mentioned in the news, I had to read on some international site that apparently he was the first homosexual country leader ever in the world. The fact that he was Orlesian, err, French speaking, now that was an issue worth writing about!). So any game about a squad of straight guys with one gay person in it is likely just not going to "click" here, just like a game that talks about the French-Dutch language issues in this country is likely not going to work too well abroad (while here it can be argued to be a much bigger issue than gay rights or gay perception).

 

The other one is if you want your game to still be played in 10years the issue you might be advocating about now might have gone away entirely, or the perception changed radically making the story elements awkward or alien (one of the reasons old books are often really weird to read, our entire "cadre" has changed in such a way that we can't properly frame the things they're talking about anymore).

 

Does that mean you shouldn't include lesbians, gypsies, gays and what-have-you in your games? Of course not, but making them into an explicit social commentary is risky and I'm not all that sure it's such a good thing to do. I mean, the gay romances in BioWare games, while oft mentioned are pretty well done in the sense that they're not bound to any local issues, the characters don't make a big deal out if it themselves. The fact that they're there is already promoting acceptance, I don't feel turning them into an explicit social commentary would help anything, rather the contrary.

 

 

In the context of what Manveer Heir said how is this type social commentary risky or in any way a bad thing around changes to stereotypes in games and in the way that games become more inclusive of minority groups? I don't understand your objection to what he said ?

 

 

 

^ And therein lies the rub, Bruce. You consistently fail to understand anybody who doesn't completely agree with you.

 

Yes I fail to understand which why I am asking you to explain further, I want to understand your perspective.

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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It's rather simple, and that certain people can't see this makes me question whether they've thought about it at all. The majority of games are made for the lowest common denominator, if they do that for gameplay, the most important part of games, they'll do it everywhere else. You want your audience to identify with characters, that means you don't have much room to deviate from the norm as there's already some ways you have to. The audience of "core" games, those that are on the Metacritic top 25 of 2013 (I don't even see why that small sample is relevant), isn't representative of society. Also given the audience of games also tends to produce the creators of games, people project themselves into the games they make, and from a creative perspective you wouldn't want it another way. I don't even see the problem with the under representation of minorities overall found by the census.

 

Is their a large audience that wants to play a modern military shooter which only diverges from the rest because of its plot about homosexuality and its acceptance in the military? If Heir wanted to present an argument against his project its that the ideas of how to implement are going to be hard to imagine, susceptible to failure, as he can't seem to come up with workable ones. No one is going to fund that game because no one is going to buy it, the theme and connection to gameplay is boring. It's also a game about experiencing alienation, bullying, and discrimination, which is not something people necessarily want in their power fantasy.

 

I know this is the way BioWare operates, but I don't think tokenism and "diversity" calculations make for good writing. His argument against realism because many games are in fantasy settings really says it all, and why BioWare fails all the time. There's also an overemphasis on superficial characteristics and a risk of stereotyping in the way this concept of "diversity" is being presented. If you have a cast of characters, people who want tokenism would want to fill up the slots with keywords based on sex, "race", and orientation, this is an over emphasises of those characteristics.

 

I find the concept of an "ethnic minority" character problematic, and these classifications are culturally constructed. Who isn't a part of an ethnic minority? Also why the emphasis on ethnicity, but not culture, politics, philosophy, disability, or class?

Edited by AwesomeOcelot
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I get it you and others don't agree or understand why its relevant to have gay representation in games but that doesn't change its importance.

 

What did I say about that strawman? Apology please.

 

You need to understand that tolerance works in different ways. Your Khmer Rouge education camp variety (doomed to failure) and a more easy-going version like mine (coming from what I like to call 'The Reality-Based Community).

 

 

 

 

I don't understand your point, you seem to contridict yourself around issues of social justice. Lets keep this simple, the relevant and reasonable speech by Manveer Heir basically challanged Developers to start to looking at ways to make games more inclusive of minority groups. He also wants to break stereotypes when these minority grous are represented in games. He believes  "There are numerous studies to suggest that repeated exposure to stereotypes through media can change an individual's perception of their identity, Heir argued. By perpetuating stereotypes, designers play a small part in sustaining damaging ideas. Heir admits that games are but one aspect of this hugely complex social problem, but said the problem should be tackled wherever possible. We can change this today."

 

I agree 100 % with him, what do you not agree with based on his opinion and what he said?

 

There are two things about stereotypes; the first is whether a stereotype is a myth or well funded observation of idiosyncratic behavior. That African Americans have assimilated gangbanging and crime into their culture is not a stereotype. That's not all they are but for some it is entirely how they know them, if a writer cares about fair representation they cannot substitute one for the other. Even worse, they cannot sweep the real world issue under the rug just cause they have changed their perception.

Secondly, I believe in artistic freedom and no good game should suffer a bad review just because the reviewer was a feminist who couldn't separate themselves from their biased worldview enough to see if what the game did was good or not. Writers and game designers should not have to thread as if they were in a glass floor for fear that they might be accused of misogyny, blacklisted, or their game suffer a lower score because of the aforementioned reasons. 

 

 

I hear what you saying and the African American stereotype is a good talking point. My view is it doesn't matter how many stereotypes we have of groups or minority groups the question we need to ask is " are these stereotypes helpful to the image of the group being represented" 

 

Lets say you are right and that in the USA certain African Americans "have assimilated gangbanging and crime into their culture". This doesn't represent the aspirations and motives of many other African Americans. So is it fair and accetable to now represent them in games like that? I see this as a generalization and negative perception of African Americans?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I asked a friend of mine, who is Gay, what she thought of the coming-out soldier idea.*

 

Her reply? "Only a straight guy would have thought of BS like that."

 

 

 

* Hey Bruce, it's the forum bigot, MC, who was the best man at her civil partnership ceremony.

 

I don't think you are a bigot, I think you are dismissive of the campaign  of social justice because it doesn't effect you personally and you think you can somehow create a change in society without people consciously realizing something has to done differently. In other words the status quo is not acceptable in certain examples and if we have to legislate to change the status quo then thats what needs to be done

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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You don't care about development companies that create games that represent gay characters as there way of addressing this type of social injustice , you don't think there is a problem in society. So please stop pretending that you actually want a game that " has a gay soldier that the rest of the squad aren't bothered with". I know its good to have  people to "like" your posts in these forums but its patronizing to see you feign an interest in something we both know doesn't concern you. In fact the whole discussion about the correct representation of minority groups in games irritates you.

Hm, can kind of see why he'd think you're insinuating he's a bigot.

 

Still, this is nice talk and all, but the odd tone of people needing to have representation regardless of whether the developer wants to or not (in an interview with Sessler the guy said as much then "but..." - just a peeve of mine when people do that backhandedly).

 

I still don't get how people feel marginalized by the protagonist not looking like them or falling into their SJW appointed class of person. Yet to actually meet anyone like that, too.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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