Ukraine burns

[Mor]

To be honest I hadn't really been following this too closely until troops got involved, so I'd have to look more into the removal of the government before I could say I (dis)agree with referring to it as a fascist putsch.

Until you do look more into it, you couldn't say anything for certain. Not if you (dis)agree with referring to it as a fascist putsch or as alien abduction and anal probing. When you do look into it, please feel free to explain your reasons and discuss.

 

Edited.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Mor

[obyknven]

Breaking news.

Crimean selfdefence is really Crimean secret army. Google history of  Crimean separatism in modern Ukraine.

Proof

http://youtu.be/rZe9bLq50Js

Imagine how Western politicans looks like  after this. Yeah, they just live in "imaginary reality".

 

Everyone love Putin, even FOX news.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3281428808001/ukraine-will-putin-win/?intcmp=obinsite#sp=show-clips

 

[alanschu]

 

The ICBM test launch was apparently known and planned well beforehand. US and Russian stories corroborate each other on this regard and I'm inclined to think it wasn't just Russia going trollface on everyone.

 

US will not attend G8 summit in Sochi unless Russia withdraws

So I heard, but wouldn't the smart thing be to refrain from doing the test while still in a crisis that risks spinning even more out of control?

 

 

Yeah maybe, but at the same time I don't know what all goes into doing a test like this.  If it's a time consuming (and expensive) ordeal, well then it's just a matter of crappy coincidence IMO

[Nepenthe]

 

Crimea is a distinct and integral region geographically, any glance at a map can confirm that. A Paris suburb is not.

 

 

Not even Île de la Cité?

[alanschu]

 

To be honest I hadn't really been following this too closely until troops got involved, so I'd have to look more into the removal of the government before I could say I (dis)agree with referring to it as a fascist putsch.

Until you do look more into it, you couldn't say anything for certain. Not if you (dis)agree with referring to it as a fascist putsch or as alien abduction and anal probing. When you do look into it, please feel free to explain your reasons and discuss.

 

Edited.

 

 

 

The big issues comes down to whether or not the impeachment that happened on the 22nd is considered valid.  There's clearly a non-trivial component that felt that Yanukovych went against the support of the people when he suddenly opted out of EU influence.  I don't really have any capability of saying whether or not it's seen as a majority issue.

 

Yanukovych did some things that ended up burying the hatchet against himself, however.  Particularly when he tried passing laws that made protest illegal (I'm not sure how he thought that that would work).  Granted, I'm sitting at home in my comfy chair and it's easy for me to say things as I'm not dealing with a large scale protest outside, but I do think that once he started doing things like that it becomes clearer that he's becoming a bit more self-serving and certainly seems to be abandoning any precepts of reconciling with the protesters.  Hindsight is on my side, but I have a hard time believing that he genuinely thought it wouldn't escalate after that.

 

 

Based on the dire situation in Ukraine (particularly ecomonically), I don't think I can apply the same rules to them that I would to, say, Canada.  That is, if people went and stormed Ottawa because they didn't like Stephen Harper, I'd be inclined to be against any sort of armed protest.  Ukraine is nearly about to default on huge loans and is a **** place economically... is it valid to say that their situation is a clearer reflection of "this government is failing us?"  I don't think entrance into the EU (or EU support) would've made that much of a difference short term.  Russia was certainly willing to offer gobs of money in exchange for keeping Ukraine in their SOI.

 

 

TL;DR It's a ****ed up and messy situation that I can't entirely relate to.

 

So it comes down to, is the response of the Ukrainian people justified?  Was the parliament acting under duress, or was it attempting to fulfill what it perceived to be the will of the people?  If so, does it bias Kiev to being "the will of the people" due to general proximity (i.e. people in Crimea are less able to exert their influence?).  The thing is, parliament voted to impeach the President, but Yanukovych responds by vowing to remain in power (perhaps not the best move) and considers Parliament illegitimate whlie fleeing East.  Now, Putin and Russia obviously have something to gain by maintaining close ties with the Ukraine.  It doesn't surprise me that Putin sides with Yanukovych, and I don't think there isn't a fair reason to do so.  That it is an "armed mutiny" isn't really an unfair thing to say.

 

That said, are there ever situations when the people must resort to desperate measures like this?  It's complicated, but in general I'd likely consider that Yanukovych dug his own grave due to past actions and comments, and am inclined to support Parliament.  Mostly because, if your President is most concerned with remaining in power (which I believe Yanukovych is), that alone is a good reason to question his legitimacy.  Though Is say this with an understanding that Yanukovych's perspectives are not in alignment with mine.  As such, I have a bias.  Could it be a bad thing to wait for the next election?

 

 

That said, based on how things have all fallen down, I don't blame Russia for wanting to be careful, wanting to exert its influence, nor do I even blame it for moving armed forces along the border as instability is an issue.  I do not, however, support Russia moving into the borders to protect Russian peoples.  This is where media gets very problematic since it starts to become a lot of propaganda.  I'm leery at any notion of local, regional governments immediately seeking outside assistance from a sovereign power in the wake of something like this.  I think that any separatist or pro-Russian factions in East Ukraine and Crimea would be better served talking with the current government.  If there comes a situation where it's clear that the government is not willing to consider any concerns that those peoples have, then appealing to international diplomatic pressure is what I would prefer.  Seek potential succession and/or defection diplomatically.  I think it'd put them in a better position to clearly outline what the region's population wants.  If a huge divide continues, I think Ukraine loses legitimacy in retaining control over those regions.

 

But... I'm sitting at home in my chair.  And realistically any attempt at succession would possibly result in a civil war and those wars would see support and influence from various factions.  A situation perhaps not too unlike what we have today.  It'd be unpleasant regardless.

 

 

So in that sense, a concession that "I probably don't know what the ideal course of action is, but I hope that there's no unnecessary loss of life and that things can ultimately be reconciled peacefully" must come from me.  It's a precarious situation, and I can reasonably understand why someone may support one side over another, and I don't think it's trivial to state that one side is clearly in the wrong.  Which is a **** answer, but hey I'm just a bloke on the internet that works for a video game company.

[Tagaziel]

The big issues comes down to whether or not the impeachment that happened on the 22nd is considered valid.  There's clearly a non-trivial component that felt that Yanukovych went against the support of the people when he suddenly opted out of EU influence.  I don't really have any capability of saying whether or not it's seen as a majority issue.

Yanukovych abandoned Kiev and disappeared, which would lead to a constitutional crisis. The President is the head of the executive branch in Ukraine and he had to be present to sign the laws passed by the Rada as part of the agreement with the opposition. The parliament did the only thing it could to continue operating (which was well within the Ukrainian constitutional framework, as the nation is the sovereign, not the President).

[Sarex]

 

 

It's not a matter of, if they were justified in removing him or not. It's a matter of there being no elections for a real government, it's a matter of the interim government being comprised of equally corrupt people and mostly it's a matter of the misrepresentation of the people of Ukraine, right now only the western Ukrainians seem to have rights.

 

 

I feel exhausted about talking someone who support Russian invasion into Ukraine. And Sarex I dont know if you doing it on purpose but you only pick few parts of my posts and seems like ignore rest eg. context.

 

so facts

 

1. Ukraine is sovereign country (in time of chaos)

2. Ukraine got 3rd biggest nuclear arsenal before treaty with Russia which Russia just breaks

3. Huge number of people were deported to Gulags where they DIED and russians moved in to Russificate Crimeria

4. There are gas pipes over Ukraine which cost Russia big pile of money

5. Russia have to pay for their sea base big buck to Ukraine so they are still major power in black and middleterean sea

6. Police was killing protesters who where freezing all winter on square (note I agree that there may be provocaters on both sides)

7. Ukraine may end up as part of EU (even I doubt it now)

8. Putin is selfcentric KGB madman who still glorify Soviet Union as best years for Russia - he sad that breakup of union was biggest mistake of this century

9. Russians soldiers are running invasion without IDs on their uniforms

 

fact you proven

 

1. there are russians in Ukraine

2. There are some right sector running around during time of chaos in Ukraine (doubt there are not any nacionalist russians)

 

Please point me to part of your posts that I have been ignoring.

 

1.Sure

2.As far as I know Russia still hasn't invaded anything, they moved troops to their bases and on the border with Ukraine. As for the masked forces in Crimea, well there is no proof that they were/are Russian.

3.You are again intentionally skipping over the large part of the history of Crimea. The people sent to the Gulags were Crimean Tartars not Ukrainians, as for the Russians, well they were already there.

4.Yes there are, but for Ukraine to do anything to them would be suicide come first winter. So I don't think the Russians are overly worried about that.

5.Ok. I don't see the problem here. Though it is worth mentioning that those bases were there before Crimea was given to Ukraine. I imagine that if Crimea declares independence, the Russians would still pay for those basing rights.

6.The protestors were an organized force, they killed/injured police officer so they were killed/injured back. How they behaved after they won and who they put to rule, show what kind of people those protestors were/are.

7.Not a snowballs chance in hell. Ukraine got played so hard, that it will be decades before they come back(economically) to what they were before the protests.

8.Putin is the best thing that has happened to Russia in a couple of centuries.

9.As I can't provide proof that the protestors in Kiev were professionally trained, so can't you provide proof that those are Russian soldiers.

 

Where have I proven those things?

Edited March 5, 2014 by Sarex

[Tagaziel]

He can provide proof that these are Russian soldiers. Unless you think Russian uniforms, Russian service weapons, Russian gear, vehicles with Russian license plates, in a region strategically important to Russia, after Russia approved military intervention plans, is all a big coincidence.

[obyknven]

Breaking news! Puppeteers are unmasked now.

US want place bases with  nuclear missiles in Ukraine. Kievan usurpers are US puppets, they want do permission for this.

From this moment it's serious. It's Carribean crisis 2.0.

Now all what happened in Ukraine is internal deal of Russia, any attempt of US or NATO intervene in this considered as declaration of war against Russia. Nuclear war, if someone dont understand.  Say thanks for your warlike idiots from Western government's, they are just like monkeys with grenades.

[Chilloutman]

Dont know what to say. Tatars feels like Ukrainans now. Fact. Soviets killed in concentration camps more people than Hitler. Fact. Soviets invaded half of Europe. Fact. Soviets doing ethnical cleansing on Tatar natives. Fact. Stalin were moving Russians to Cimerian teritory to russificate that region. Fact. Putin agree that these were best time for Russia. Fact

 

Conclusion - Putin is imperialist pig who thinks he can control sovereign country because its in 'Sphere of influence of Russia'.

 

Can you imagine German president saying that third reich was best thing for Germany in past century?

 

If you excuse me I am going to puke

Edited March 5, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Tagaziel]

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-local-forces-crimea-russian-military-20140304,0,41184.story#axzz2v5KMUTKf

 

"Local self-defense forces" indeed.

 

And here's a quick image of the license plates "local self-defense forces" use on their vehicles:

 

 

That must be one big shop.

[obyknven]

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-local-forces-crimea-russian-military-20140304,0,41184.story#axzz2v5KMUTKf

 

"Local self-defense forces" indeed.

 

And here's a quick image of the license plates "local self-defense forces" use on their vehicles:

 

 

That must be one big shop.

Russian sells some amount of cars to Crimeans, what is problem? When you drive Japan car you become Japan guy? Many people wear German or US uniform in my hometown, they are Nato occupants by your logic. Do you considered any people with Kalashnikov as Russian soldier?

It's just so stupid.

[Nepenthe]

I suppose they'll later claim that the license plates prove that they weren't francs-tireurs.

[Tagaziel]

I suppose they'll later claim that the license plates prove that they weren't francs-tireurs.

Nah, Pootyn will claim they were Polish provocateurs trained in special camps in Finland. It would make the same amount of sense.

[Malcador]

Assuming that stuff about the licence plates is correct, anyhow.

[Nepenthe]

Assuming that stuff about the licence plates is correct, anyhow.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Russia

[Volourn]

"Now all what happened in Ukraine is internal deal of Russia, any attempt of US or NATO intervene in this considered as declaration of war against Russia. Nuclear war, if someone dont understand.  Say thanks for your warlike idiots from Western government's, they are just like monkeys with grenades."

 

Wait. So what happens in UKRAINE is a RUSSIA *internal* matter. LMAO

[Malcador]

 

Assuming that stuff about the licence plates is correct, anyhow.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Russia

 

 

Yup, finally got around to checking that, will have to look up the branch codes of the forces as a final check but seems legit.  But you'll have to pardon me for not taking random images at face value

[213374U]

I won't dispute that the situation is a lot murkier with the way the current interim government came to be and the fact that some won't agree with how it came to power and whether or not it is legitimate.

 

To be honest I hadn't really been following this too closely until troops got involved, so I'd have to look more into the removal of the government before I could say I (dis)agree with referring to it as a fascist putsch.

 

I had to go back a few pages to dig up some links. Others are readily available in the net if you know what to look for.

 

 

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yefremov-complains-to-ashton-his-faction-mps-working-at-gunpoint-337587.html

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/thirteen-more-party-of-regions-members-leave-parliamentary-faction-337356.html

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140224/187857643/Ukraine-Parliament-Sacks-Constitutional-Court-Judges.html

http://www.thenation.com/article/178013/ukrainian-nationalism-heart-euromaidan

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/721610

http://www.ibtimes.com/euromaidan-dark-shadows-far-right-ukraine-protests-1556654

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/437746044529430529

http://www.timothyeastman.com/uncategorized/an-interview-with-mira-andrei-and-sascha-of-antifascist-action-ukraine/

http://hnn.us/article/122778

http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

 

 

I could go on, and on and on... but you get the picture. You are a big boy, you can make up your own mind. It's telling albeit unsurprising how even the most fervent defenders of democracy, freedom, human rights and all that fluffy stuff here have systematically glossed over the fact that it's neo-fascists that have usurped power in Ukraine after Yanukovych fled. There isn't even a serious PR effort to dispel this; the strategy instead is to focus on Putin's reactions—painting him as an admirer of Stalin with Hitler's foreign policy handbook to guide him is sure to draw the short attention span of the average news consumer, not to mention much more palatable than the notion that the EU and US are supporting a coup d'état by extreme right groups.

[Tagaziel]

Assuming that stuff about the licence plates is correct, anyhow.

I made the image and I did my research. Unless the Russian Wikipedia, an independent site explaining plate numbers, and reality are wrong.

 

Check the Russian Wikipedia for a breakdown of branch codes.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Tagaziel

[obyknven]

 

Assuming that stuff about the licence plates is correct, anyhow.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_registration_plates_of_Russia

 

Russian sell license plates so easy, corruptioon everywhere

 

New info about Maidan leaders.

 

Officers of Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) loyal to the ousted President Viktor Yanukovich have hacked phones of Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs Urmas Paet and High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine Ashton and leaked their conversation to the web. The officials discuss their impressions of what's happening in the country after the revolution. The gist of it is that Ukrainian people have no trust in any of the leaders of Maidan.

However the most striking thing of all is the fact which concerns the use of force during the revolution, particularly the snipers who killed both protesters and officers of the riot police. Mr. Paet reveals astonishing information which confirms the rumours that the snipers were employed by the leaders of Maidan.

http://youtu.be/ZEgJ0oo3OA8

[Malcador]

Confederate battle flag (always thought it was Stars and Bars, wrong version) in Ukraine, who'd have imagined that.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Malcador

[Tagaziel]

Confederate battle flag (always thought it was Stars and Bars, wrong version) in Ukraine, who'd have imagined that.

After Mongolian Neo Nazis, nothing seems jarring to me in this category.

 

Also, the EU announced a $15 billion aid package for Ukraine. GG, EU.

Edited March 5, 2014 by Tagaziel

[obyknven]

Snowden, Putin among nominees for this year’s Nobel Peace Prize

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/rest-of-world/Snowden-Putin-among-nominees-for-this-years-Nobel-Peace-Prize/articleshow/31427018.cms

[Malcador]

Well, I've seen Russians display a Nazi flag at soccer matches, that's about the second most surprising thing related to them, short of a Jewish Nazi.  Just random to refer to US secessionists' flag which is just associated with racism these days.

 

Wonder what conditions that money comes with.