Can I even handle a game like PE any longer? Well, I sure hope so!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Is that confirmed? If so Sawyer slipped that under the radar. A lot of us hate the idea.

 

 

You must have missed the update more than a year ago and the many threads on it?

[Wombat]

As for quest XP, related to the topic of how to reward the players, there is a SAF post by Sawyer.

If participating in a specific type of core gameplay is not enjoyable on its own, our game is bad and I sincerely encourage people to not engage in it/not play the game. There is one main thing we want to reward with XP in our game: pursuing and completing quests. Our quests are unique, they cannot be repeated, and they typically can be completed in a number of different ways using a number of different gameplay mechanics. If you get tired of talking to people to solve quests, start provoking fights. If you get tired of fighting, start sneaking around. If none of those things are fun anymore, then the game's not fun anymore. I don't want to motivate people to grit their teeth while using gameplay mechanics they hate because there's an XP incentive for doing so.

 

If you have an XP system you already have an explicit reward structure for the player. It makes sense to have that reward structure incentivise playing the game in an interesting way; players will go for the long term reward over the short term gameplay reward almost every time simply because that is how people play RPGs.

Players will play the way that they enjoy playing. If we judge that stealth is more interesting than combat or combat is more interesting than conversation and decide to alter the rewards players receive for engaging in that gameplay, we're putting two desires into conflict: 1) the desire to complete quests using the gameplay they enjoy and 2) the desire to achieve a maximally beneficial reward. I don't think that's a good conflict for us to set up because it often, demonstrably, results in players grinding through activities in ways they don't want to because the game incentivizes them to do so.

In-world reactions are something we will always emphasize because those reactions are purely for role-playing purposes. Sometimes the reactions are positive, sometimes they are negative, but they are intended to typically (though not always) align with the role the player sets out to play among the world's characters. If you're playing Alpha Protocol and Mike just starts blasting marines at the Embassy, I doubt players are negatively surprised by the reaction they get from other characters for it. You start blasting marines because of the reactions you're going to get!

Most people who are accustomed to some PnP RPGs are, I think, already familiar with the quest XP, though.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Wombat: Thank you for the link and the info. You're always in the know!

[BLnoT]

Thank you for the information Wombat.

I do agree and think you would stay more focused on the story rather than just bashing things for exp.

[Sarex]

Then I don't understand how path of the damned is going to work? If it's a spiritual successor to IWD Heart of Fury mode, how are they going to make the choice of talking your way out of a fight harder and how is it going to be equal to busting your ass off in choosing to fight (Heart of Fury had bigger xp rewards).

[Gfted1]

Then I don't understand how path of the damned is going to work? If it's a spiritual successor to IWD Heart of Fury mode, how are they going to make the choice of talking your way out of a fight harder and how is it going to be equal to busting your ass off in choosing to fight (Heart of Fury had bigger xp rewards).

 

Good question. Maybe they will simply increase the Speech skill check requirement?

[Monte Carlo]

This is one of those points where they veer away from the precursor games because they can. I don't like it.

[Metabot]

I really don't see how it will change things that much, if at all.

[Sarex]

I really don't see how it will change things that much, if at all.

 

It will steer people away from fights when there is a way around them, and they will get the same amount of xp for the work that is equally hard on any difficulty, thus not rewarding any skill.

 

Good question. Maybe they will simply increase the Speech skill check requirement?

 

Which is not really increasing the difficulty of the game, that is my problem. Anyways I always max my speech skill.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Sarex

[Metabot]

I don't think so. It will encourage different approaches. There will probably be other benefits to fights as well, like loot.

[Sarex]

I don't think so. It will encourage different approaches. There will probably be other benefits to fights as well, like loot.

 

If path of the damned is anything like heart of fury (and I think it will be harder) then it would have to be really valuable loot.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I think you're perhaps breaking in an open door with this kind of logic, Gifted1 and Sarex. Sneaking or talking your way through encounters in that Path of the Damned-mode in PE will surely involve minor progression steps, advantages or perhaps sneaking passed the worst choke point, but sooner or later all hell will break lose and you will have to fight in order to survive anyhow. Perhaps talking and sneaking can facilitate stuff during the encounter, first and foremost. Getting people to yield or sneaking off/fleeing when that seem to be the right thing to do. I mean, objective xp/quest xp is in, so there's no need to kill everything and everyone you see and loot them for gold and items. Heh, hopefully pickpocketing is in too. Imagine pickpocketing someone during an encounter!

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

I don't think so. It will encourage different approaches. There will probably be other benefits to fights as well, like loot.

 

If path of the damned is anything like heart of fury (and I think it will be harder) then it would have to be really valuable loot.

 

 

If it was really valuable loot then no one would even take the non-violent path. So your solution to the problem that you think exists is to reverse it?

[Sarex]

I think you're perhaps breaking in an open door with this kind of logic, Gifted1 and Sarex. Sneaking or talking your way through encounters in that Path of the Damned-mode in PE will surely involve minor progression steps, advantages or perhaps sneaking passed the worst choke point, but sooner or later all hell will break lose and you will have to fight in order to survive anyhow. Perhaps talking and sneaking can facilitate stuff during the encounter, first and foremost. Getting people to yield or sneaking off/fleeing when that seem to be the right thing to do. I mean, objective xp/quest xp is in, so there's no need to kill everything and everyone you see and loot them for gold and items. Heh, hopefully pickpocketing is in too. Imagine pickpocketing someone during an encounter!

 

If it let's you bypass 5 out of 10 mobs on your way to the boss then I don't think it's going to work. I don't know if you ever played in heart of fury mode, but even trash mobs make you **** your pants. Path of the damned is simply going to be unfair as far as I heard, it's not going to just be better stats on enemies, it's going to be whole new enemies.

 

If it was really valuable loot then no one would even take the non-violent path. So your solution to the problem that you think exists is to reverse it?

 

Nope, just saying that a couple of gold pieces and a ordinary swords+armors, aren't going to incentivize anyone on going the fighting route.

[Metabot]

 

I think you're perhaps breaking in an open door with this kind of logic, Gifted1 and Sarex. Sneaking or talking your way through encounters in that Path of the Damned-mode in PE will surely involve minor progression steps, advantages or perhaps sneaking passed the worst choke point, but sooner or later all hell will break lose and you will have to fight in order to survive anyhow. Perhaps talking and sneaking can facilitate stuff during the encounter, first and foremost. Getting people to yield or sneaking off/fleeing when that seem to be the right thing to do. I mean, objective xp/quest xp is in, so there's no need to kill everything and everyone you see and loot them for gold and items. Heh, hopefully pickpocketing is in too. Imagine pickpocketing someone during an encounter!

 

If it let's you bypass 5 out of 10 mobs on your way to the boss then I don't think it's going to work. I don't know if you ever played in heart of fury mode, but even trash mobs make you **** your pants. Path of the damned is simply going to be unfair as far as I heard, it's not going to just be better stats on enemies, it's going to be whole new enemies.

 

If it was really valuable loot then no one would even take the non-violent path. So your solution to the problem that you think exists is to reverse it?

 

Nope, just saying that a couple of gold pieces and a ordinary swords+armors, aren't going to incentivize anyone on going the fighting route.

 

 

Lol I'm obviously not talking about common armor and swords.

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

I think you're perhaps breaking in an open door with this kind of logic, Gifted1 and Sarex. Sneaking or talking your way through encounters in that Path of the Damned-mode in PE will surely involve minor progression steps, advantages or perhaps sneaking passed the worst choke point, but sooner or later all hell will break lose and you will have to fight in order to survive anyhow. Perhaps talking and sneaking can facilitate stuff during the encounter, first and foremost. Getting people to yield or sneaking off/fleeing when that seem to be the right thing to do. I mean, objective xp/quest xp is in, so there's no need to kill everything and everyone you see and loot them for gold and items. Heh, hopefully pickpocketing is in too. Imagine pickpocketing someone during an encounter!

 

If it let's you bypass 5 out of 10 mobs on your way to the boss then I don't think it's going to work. I don't know if you ever played in heart of fury mode, but even trash mobs make you **** your pants. Path of the damned is simply going to be unfair as far as I heard, it's not going to just be better stats on enemies, it's going to be whole new enemies.

 

If it was really valuable loot then no one would even take the non-violent path. So your solution to the problem that you think exists is to reverse it?

 

Nope, just saying that a couple of gold pieces and a ordinary swords+armors, aren't going to incentivize anyone on going the fighting route.

 

 

Being able to sell their stuff is already incentive compared to the violence-free no loot option.  Maybe if item degradation was a thing you'd have a point but the forum whined that feature away. 

 

Also calling the hardest difficulty in the game unfair is sort of the point of it being the toughest difficulty. 

Edited January 19, 2014 by PIP-Clownboy

[Metabot]

Yea I don't get why item degradation was shouted down. Even something a little less involved than New Vegas.

[Sarex]

Being able to sell their stuff is already incentive compared to the violence-free no loot option.  Maybe if item degradation was a thing you'd have a point but the forum whined that feature away. 

 

Also calling the hardest difficulty in the game unfair is sort of the point of it being the toughest difficulty.

 

If the economy is anything like in the IE games, then past early game it's not worth bothering with non + items.

 

You misunderstood me, I was not saying that in a negative way, I was simply using the word "unfair" to paint a picture.

[PIP-Clownboy]

Doubt the economy will be anything like the IE games considering the huge party stash and Stronghold. And probably plenty of other differences. 

 

You ca be richer in the violent scenario vs poorer and in better shape in the non-violent . 

 

The income gained from being violent could be used for a consumable or stronghold upgrade which could lead to easier gameplay in the future. Non-violent would give the benefit of the next immediate encounters being easier assuming you can't/don't rest. 

 

If anything I don't see much incentive for being non-violent unless you're playing ironman. But in that case, violent methods should generally be more dangerous/risky with the inherent risk being death. 

[Stun]

If it was really valuable loot then no one would even take the non-violent path. So your solution to the problem that you think exists is to reverse it?

Ooh.... this is a really good point. I applaud them for trying to come up with alternative solutions to encounters, but if I see a hostile party of enemies, and their armor and weapons are all shiny and unique looking, I'm not going to prefer to Stealth past them or persuade them to walk away. Not when I could just kill them and take their stuff. LOL

[Sarex]

Doubt the economy will be anything like the IE games considering the huge party stash and Stronghold. And probably plenty of other differences. 

 

You ca be richer in the violent scenario vs poorer and in better shape in the non-violent . 

 

The income gained from being violent could be used for a consumable or stronghold upgrade which could lead to easier gameplay in the future. Non-violent would give the benefit of the next immediate encounters being easier assuming you can't/don't rest. 

 

If anything I don't see much incentive for being non-violent unless you're playing ironman. But in that case, violent methods should generally be more dangerous/risky with the inherent risk being death. 

 

Doesn't change the fact that the crappy loot is crappy, also remember that we are talking about path of the damned mode here.

[PIP-Clownboy]

My points apply to Path of the Damned; more enemies = more loot. It seems you're assuming that their breastplates/hides won't be worth anything though. You are talking about trash fights correct?

Edited January 19, 2014 by PIP-Clownboy

[Sarex]

My points apply to Path of the Damned; more enemies = more loot. It seems you're assuming that their breastplates/hides won't be worth anything though. You are talking about trash fights correct?

 

There were never more enemies, they were just strong as ****. Path of the damned will replace ordinary enemies with a more dangerous type of enemies, I don't think that the numbers will increase. Yeah usually non npc enemies don't drop valuable items, also there are no trash mobs/fights in path of the damned (or at least there shouldn't be if they plan on it being a spiritual successor to HoF).

[Monte Carlo]

Like Gftd1, I occasionally detect the whiff of hipster bull**** about elements of PoE. This is one of them.

 

Much of the game I like, but some of it I'm beginning to actively dislike. The idea that skilful use of dialogue skills to get XP is equitable to decent tactics against enemies is risible.

[Metabot]

You guys are the hipsters, "well it wasn't done this way in the infinity engine games so it must be bad."