About lore and background in games

[CaptainMace]

Hi folks, I apologize first for the mistakes you're gonna witness in this message, for english isn't my native language.

 

As Project Eternity will take set in a whole new universe created for it, I couldn't help but think of those games, especially the story-telling ones, who feature brand new worlds and backgrounds. When it comes to these games, I have a problem : I often find them too "plentiful" of information about lore, deities and beliefs, legends and history etc... or should i say, the information we get about the lore is often too specific, as if to make a good and credible background, it had to be the clearest possible, where everything is explained or has an explanation of some sorts.

 

To clarify what I mean, i'll take two examples from strictly different kind of story-telling games : the RPG Dragon Age : Origins and the Infiltration game Dishonored. They both featured brand new universes (in other words, they both presented new universes) though in DA:O, it looks like the developpers wanted the players to acknowedge the work they've done on the background, resulting in an overflow of information about its lore (a codex with looong entries and almost always 2-3 dialogs options with NPCs that had no purpose but to reveal stuff about the world). On the other hand, Dishonored features a world that reveals itself only through the perception of it's main character, from peaceful to chaotic as the story goes forth, without any long talk about how the government works and stuff.

The problem i have with games like DA:O is that the overflow of informations (especially when thrown at the player without any particular reason other than some ridiculous dialog options like "who leads here ?") and the over-explanation of everything makes its universe "cartoonish", barely credible. When Dishonored universe, though mostly misty and unknown, seems way more credible and realistic to me.

 

Long story short, I find that RPGs featuring exclusive worlds/backgrounds and such often fall in the trap of the over-explanation/overflow of information, for they want hard to make their universe the most clean possible and don't realize that they're actually, ironically, turning it into a weird puppet show. Unknown and mystery is what makes a fantasy universe exciting, and i post there, finally, to see what people think about story-telling in VG and RPGs most specifically. Do you agree with that or do you actually prefer long chitchat about "how the god of thunder lost his arm and how this is why the holy order of storm recruit only left-armed people and..."

 

How would you like the universe to be narrated in PE ?

[tajerio]

I actually thought that DA:O did an OK job of presenting the lore.  The first time I played through the game, I didn't read most of the codex entries very closely, instead mostly listening to what people had to say.  I felt like I got a good impression of what the world was like through that, without getting so much information that I understood everything that could ever possibly happen in the world.  I also really enjoyed the expository dialogue options, but one man's peach is another man's poison.

 

I do agree with you, though, that presenting lore in a new world is a tricky challenge, because the game has to compensate for the fact that although the PC has the knowledge of probably at least two decades of living in the world, the player has none of that.  Generally, I'd like it if we ran into histories not infrequently, thus allowing us to pick up broad knowledge through reading in-game stuff (like TES' approach, but done well).  Dialogue exposition should probably be limited to specialist knowledge, about a particular area, profession, or skill.

 

I think an introductory cinematic of the type that Sensuki's promoting in another thread would also be a great mechanism for giving a broad-strokes picture of the world. 

[Yonjuro]

 This seems like the kind of thing that the P:E team will get right, but I agree that it is important.

 

 Tolkien struck a good balance - enough detail to make his world seem real without drowning the reader in it. I think the IE games mostly did this well too - partly by putting lore into books that could be read (or ignored) at the players leisure. In BG1, there was simple quest to find a book for Firebead after which he hands the player a (very relevant) book in return.  

 

 What didn't work so well in BG were the cameo appearances by Elminster etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi folks, I apologize first for the mistakes you're gonna witness in this message, for english isn't my native language.

 

As Project Eternity will take set in a whole new universe created for it, I couldn't help but think of those games, especially the story-telling ones, who feature brand new worlds and backgrounds. When it comes to these games, I have a problem : I often find them too "plentiful" of information about lore, deities and beliefs, legends and history etc... or should i say, the information we get about the lore is often too specific, as if to make a good and credible background, it had to be the clearest possible, where everything is explained or has an explanation of some sorts.

 

To clarify what I mean, i'll take two examples from strictly different kind of story-telling games : the RPG Dragon Age : Origins and the Infiltration game Dishonored. They both featured brand new universes (in other words, they both presented new universes) though in DA:O, it looks like the developpers wanted the players to acknowedge the work they've done on the background, resulting in an overflow of information about its lore (a codex with looong entries and almost always 2-3 dialogs options with NPCs that had no purpose but to reveal stuff about the world). On the other hand, Dishonored features a world that reveals itself only through the perception of it's main character, from peaceful to chaotic as the story goes forth, without any long talk about how the government works and stuff.

The problem i have with games like DA:O is that the overflow of informations (especially when thrown at the player without any particular reason other than some ridiculous dialog options like "who leads here ?") and the over-explanation of everything makes its universe "cartoonish", barely credible. When Dishonored universe, though mostly misty and unknown, seems way more credible and realistic to me.

 

Long story short, I find that RPGs featuring exclusive worlds/backgrounds and such often fall in the trap of the over-explanation/overflow of information, for they want hard to make their universe the most clean possible and don't realize that they're actually, ironically, turning it into a weird puppet show. Unknown and mystery is what makes a fantasy universe exciting, and i post there, finally, to see what people think about story-telling in VG and RPGs most specifically. Do you agree with that or do you actually prefer long chitchat about "how the god of thunder lost his arm and how this is why the holy order of storm recruit only left-armed people and..."

 

How would you like the universe to be narrated in PE ?

[SophosTheWise]

(...)almost always 2-3 dialogs options with NPCs that had no purpose but to reveal stuff about the world

 

 

Actually I would be mad if that wasn't the case for PE. In my opinion, that's what dialogue is for apart from giving away quest information. It's an "immersive gateway" to the game's universe.

 

_{(Also, I love having different dialogue options, even if the result is the same. I still remember he Dwarven Charter where you could insult the Dwarven boss, just for the sake of having different insults)}

 

 

 

Dishonored features a world that reveals itself only through the perception of it's main character, from peaceful to chaotic as the story goes forth, without any long talk about how the government works and stuff  

 

I know what you mean. Show, don't tell. But in a text based, isometric roleplaying game that's kind of hard, because you can't plaster propaganda posters and small details everywhere. Of course, you don't have to know how the government works. But what if I want that? You can simply ignore the codex entries and I can read it. 

 

 

 the over-explanation of everything makes its universe "cartoonish", barely credible

 

 

Well, there I agree. What's a Paladin?

[decado]

Dishonored's presentation of lore was better, IMO.  There was less of it, and it was woven into the story better.  DA:O was basically info dumps everywhere, and none of it was particularly interesting.  I don't think I read even half of it, it was just generic, Western fantasy cliches piled on top of each other.  I've said this before bu David Gaider is a terrible writer. *ducks*

 

I think the best job I've ever seen when it comes to including lore in a game has to be Morrowind.  Planescape:Torment was also really well done, though in this case they were building off of TSR's lore going back several years. 

[Lephys]

I kinda get what CaptainMace is saying, I think.

 

It's one thing to have a lot of information and historical accounts and such available to read somewhere in the world, if you seek it out, but it's another thing, entirely, to have a ton of info readily available about everyone and everything you ever bump into. Bump into a temple? You now know everything about that temple, ever, because of some companion of yours, or because some person at the temple explains it all (whether you want them to or not), or because (the worst one) the game literally just tells you all about it in a very "Hey, you're a floating player up in the heavens of this game! Have some info!". Granted, I don't know of many games that do it that last way, luckily.

 

But, I think things should be a lot more mysterious, for lack of a better word. A much more natural acquisition of lore and info. You know, someone briefly answers your "Who are they?" when you ask about that temple/order, with common misconceptions and oversimplification and everything. You know as much as the average person about them, rather than automatically being an expert and having a bunch of research on the subject as if you're always performing a heist or something.

 

Info delivery/availability often comes across as either completely arbitrary, or conveniently focused to support a specific quest/dilemma that involves some twist on that specific information.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Lephys

[CaptainMace]

@Sophos, I realize now that Dishonored wasn't that good of an example. What I meant is : when i'm asked to save X in Y location, i'm always tired of seeing dialog options as "where is Y" "what was X doing there" and stuff that the quest is gonna tell me anyway while i complete it. It works the same for the lore, in my opinion, as I shouldn't have to ask a npc, in a really "rpg-ish" way, what he can tell me about the history of a place/god/man, because it throws the player back in his player condition and breaks immersion. I think you can still, in a game such as what PE looks like, dodges these easy ways of unfolding the universe for something more dynamic.

I didn't have to ask Anomen how the most radiant heart recruits its knights in BG2, because his personal story shows it on its own, in a really dynamic way. That's what i mean.

 

And, well, i really disagree with you about optional classic dialog options asking about lore, i myself consider it the opposite because it really breaks my immersion in the game. Though, I understand the most hardcore PC players are used to this system, and I know it's not systematically a bad thing.

[Quetzalcoatl]

You could try the radical method of not selecting those dialogue options. Obsidian are competent storytellers and I assume the lore will be woven into the main quest and gameplay (the whole soul powers thing), so you'll get the gist of it anyway. I would argue that the problem you describe has more to do with most game writing generally being not particularly good.

 

There are easy ways to remedy the problem of random NPC's being encyclopedias of knowledge. Most of them should just brush you off and answer that they have no time to stand around chatting with you, unless it makes sense for their characters (librarians, touts who ask for a bit of coin to spill information, etc.). Conversely, knowledge should come with its own reward. For instance, learning some scandalous detail about a local politician chould yield some dialogue options (like taunting or blackmailing him) when finally meeting said politician.

 

By the way, I think both Dishonored and Dragon Age: Origins have terrible storytelling, albeit for wholly different reasons.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Quetzalcoatl

[Lephys]

You could try the radical method of not selecting those dialogue options.

I don't think he's so much saying that the sheer existence of "please tell me info here" options is a problem, as he is saying that it's a bit ridiculous just how plentiful and readily available those options are. You're never like "I need to go rescue this girl who was taken by some men? Who are they, and who is she?", only to be met with "I don't really know much." Someone's always conveniently standing around to be a living codex entry on that girl and her whole life, and that faction of Bandits and their relationship with the nearby towns.

 

You've got a dossier on pretty much anyone at any time, always just at the right moment.

 

Not-choosing the options does nothing for the fact that they're infeasibly numerous and convenient in the first place.

 

Like you said, though, it really has to do with storytelling and writing in general. That NPC is only there to inform you of everything at the opportune moment because he was written into that role. Different writing will make the information available in a more believable way, not always at a convenient time, and sometimes not at all.

 

I think this...

 

I didn't have to ask Anomen how the most radiant heart recruits its knights in BG2, because his personal story shows it on its own, in a really dynamic way. That's what i mean.

... is an excellent example. And no, it doesn't mean that nothing should ever be explained or available to be read about. But, having everything described/explained to you is not the only way to present the player with information. And I think that, again, is where good writers and good lore/information management domes in. It takes advantage of all available methods, and uses the right ones at the right times to make a much more compelling story, and a much more interesting exposure to the lore.

[Kjaamor]

4:12

 

[Greensleeve]

Actually, I quite like the Codex, though I much preferred the Mass Effect Codex. I think the Mass Effect Codex was an absolutely excellent way for the writers to show off their work that wasn't terribly important to the story, and let the story tell itself and whatever important pieces of lore it needed. 

 

I want to see a lot of options available to me in getting access to lore. I love lore and I want to see loads of it. That doesn't mean it has to be squished in my face at every single turn. I wouldn't mind having NPCs available at certain points in the world who would just tell me stuff about that place. But at the same time, an incredibly effective way of conveying lore is the Dark Souls way. The subtlety, yet simultaneous depth, of Dark Souls lore, told through level design, small snippets of dialogue, and, most importantly, item descriptions is something truly noteworthy that I hope PE will take note of. Knowing that Josh loved DkS, I hope we'll see some inspiration taken from there. 

[CaptainMace]

Actually, I quite like the Codex, though I much preferred the Mass Effect Codex. I think the Mass Effect Codex was an absolutely excellent way for the writers to show off their work that wasn't terribly important to the story, and let the story tell itself and whatever important pieces of lore it needed. 

 

I want to see a lot of options available to me in getting access to lore. I love lore and I want to see loads of it. That doesn't mean it has to be squished in my face at every single turn. I wouldn't mind having NPCs available at certain points in the world who would just tell me stuff about that place. But at the same time, an incredibly effective way of conveying lore is the Dark Souls way. The subtlety, yet simultaneous depth, of Dark Souls lore, told through level design, small snippets of dialogue, and, most importantly, item descriptions is something truly noteworthy that I hope PE will take note of. Knowing that Josh loved DkS, I hope we'll see some inspiration taken from there. 

 

Man, this comment pleases me so much, 'cause i couldn't agree more with you. Indeed, i found the codex of Mass Effect 1 really useful and interesting. But i think it's just a matter of universe, i have nothing against a Sci-Fi story that explains in details how mankind managed to explore new systems, it's actually important for the lore to be solid. (The problem i have with ME is that 95% of the lore is in the first one, the two other kind of didn't bring anything new to ME lore, but that's another subject). Concerning Med-Fan universes, i think a codex or anything like this breaks immersion, for it's like "here, i didn't manage to put that in the game, so i put it there, in the menu".

 

Concerning Dark Souls, I couldn't agree more. I actually think Dark souls belongs to a rare kind of video games that manage, these days, to avoid both the cinematic AND the literary narration to give the player an actual video game narration. Baldur's Gate, for example, is way closer to the literary narration (which is kinda normal for an adaptation of D&D of the 90's).

[nikolokolus]

I think what you're trying to get at is the importance of "show, don't tell." 

 

From what I recall Josh Sawyer addressed this issue in a video update for the project some time back and if I recall, Obsidian is well aware of not using characters as information dispensers and prefer to let your impression of the world form as you explore it and experience it.

[Wolfenbarg]

Well they did make New Vegas. That game was full of info dumps, but it was all loaded down by perspective. Someone wouldn't just tell you the history of the Legion, they'd just tell you what they knew about the Legion and how it affected them. It was pretty natural for the most part. You see a lot of the things they're talking about too. I saw soldiers getting vaporized by Fiends and innocents by crucified by the Legion before anyone told me these things were a problem, though in an alternate playthrough you could learn about those aspects before seeing them too. How you learned lore had possibilities. That was pretty cool, but I feel like that may specifically be unique to open world games.

 

Anyway, I have faith. PS:T, New Vegas, and Mask of the Betrayer handle lore quite well.

[JFSOCC]

Not explaining everything leads to the sense that the world is greater than your story. Explaining every single ffing detail gives a very artificial feel.

 

Besides it's a very easy and convenient way to seed potential future content (be it expansions, new games, or even just allow fans to make their own quest mods)

 

My favourite example is Avatar the last airbender (tv-series) That show is so good! 1. it respects its audience's intelligence (though yes, its target audience is children) 2. it has an arc. (remember that, tv series? when stories had a beginning, middle and ending? rather than return to status quo every ffing episode?) 3. Believable characters, each with their own arc.

 

and #4, which is why I brought it up, it seeds a bigger world by not explaining everything. So there is this secret society, General Iroh is part of it, members know eachother by playing a board game.

 

That's it. allusion to something bigger, and you know that there is something which may or may not be explored later

 

It's one example out of many.

[Wombat]

almost always 2-3 dialogs options with NPCs that had no purpose but to reveal stuff about the world

That part has been already covered.  The lead designer is not a big fan of NPCs that feel like information devices, which he occationally expressed.  You may be able to find some bits if you serach for his presentation "Do Say the Right Thing" in GDC 2012.

 

As for how lore would be presented, considering how the rep system and PE world are designed and that the lead designer majored in history, we may be able to expect lore has some variations depending on who they wrote/told.  In CRPG, this is well done in Morrowind, IMO-except that the conversations with NPCs are not written as natural conversations like we can see Obsidian works.

 

About environmental story-telling in general, I guess I understand what you mean.  Probably due to the generation, I often used System Shock 2 (Avellone is a fan of Shocks, too) as an example, instead of Dishonored (However, both of them have Looking Glass gene), though.  Among Obsidian members, Tim Cain seems to have enjoyed Fallout 3 (Emil Pagliarulo worked on it), employing his own imagination on what actually happened in various locations of it, so, Obsidian may have some ideas of their own.  That said, like some people here, I have to remind you that the actual gameplay of this game is exparienced through "isometric" view and, if you don't appreciate lot of reading, you may not be able to make full out of it.

[Starwars]

Well they did make New Vegas. That game was full of info dumps, but it was all loaded down by perspective. Someone wouldn't just tell you the history of the Legion, they'd just tell you what they knew about the Legion and how it affected them. It was pretty natural for the most part. You see a lot of the things they're talking about too. I saw soldiers getting vaporized by Fiends and innocents by crucified by the Legion before anyone told me these things were a problem, though in an alternate playthrough you could learn about those aspects before seeing them too. How you learned lore had possibilities. That was pretty cool, but I feel like that may specifically be unique to open world games.

 

Anyway, I have faith. PS:T, New Vegas, and Mask of the Betrayer handle lore quite well.

 

This is one good point to have I think even though it doesn't necessarily solve the "problem" (if one thinks it is a problem) per say. If the world of PE is close to its historical counterpoint of our world, then there should be plenty of mystery and points of view regarding the history of things.

 

If stuff like lore is presented with personality and with varying points of view depending on who you talk to in the game, I find it involves the player as it activates your imagination. What *was* the true story behind this? What *is* the nature of this phenomenon, etc. And ideally, the player would have to choose his own side in the matter of things.

 

I like having "codexes" in games where you can look up things, but they should be easy to navigate. Straight up "info dumps" tend to be boring even if they may be written well. But yeah, if there is some *point* to it besides just dumping info... Whether the NPC is trying to get a point across, showcasing his/her personality, tying it into quests (even in the subtlest way)then it's all good. But it's a pretty hard balance to strike in my opinion. On one hand, I also like having stories and such in games since they can just flesh the world out and not make it seem like *everything* in the game is focused on a quest, or the main quest or a character or whatever. That can make a game feel too "narrow" in its lore and background.

 

An interesting example is the mage in Torment explaning the nature of the planes. There are interesting anecdotes there for sure, especially since the game is so well-written in general, but to me that conversation crosses the line into "hey, we're explaning the world here!" territory. It becomes too dry, too lengthy and too unnatural to be really fun to read in my opinion.

[Messier-31]

per say 

 

No no no, you've got it all wrong, per se. Here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/per_se

 

I like having "codexes" in games where you can look up things, but they should be easy to navigate. Straight up "info dumps" tend to be boring even if they may be written well. But yeah, if there is some *point* to it besides just dumping info...

 

It's a thing that makes you feel like you are on a wikipedia of some sort. Hundreds of entries which are just not so legible at most, some being updated every now and then as the story goes, and it might be difficult to find the changes. I find the way of lore description in books more promising (BG style), and more accurate for a game like this. You want to read something, you read it - also you have to find it yourself.

 

An interesting example is the mage in Torment explaning the nature of the planes. There are interesting anecdotes there for sure, especially since the game is so well-written in general, but to me that conversation crosses the line into "hey, we're explaning the world here!" territory. It becomes too dry, too lengthy and too unnatural to be really fun to read in my opinion.

 

Yup, that guy was a slight exaggeration.

 

- Excuse me, Sir, are you by any chance a planewalker?

- Why yes I am, stranger.

- Could you be so kind and explain the nature of planes to me, an arogant simpleton?

- Naturally! Here is the whole thing...

Edited November 21, 2013 by Messier-31

[IndiraLightfoot]

My favourite example is Avatar the last airbender (tv-series) That show is so good! 1. it respects its audience's intelligence (though yes, its target audience is children) 2. it has an arc. (remember that, tv series? when stories had a beginning, middle and ending? rather than return to status quo every ffing episode?) 3. Believable characters, each with their own arc.

 

and #4, which is why I brought it up, it seeds a bigger world by not explaining everything. So there is this secret society, General Iroh is part of it, members know eachother by playing a board game.

 

 

JFSOCC: I agree with you 100%, and I do love that show. It's fantastically well written, and works for kids all the way up to grumpy semi-old men like me!

[decado]

The most important thing to remember about lore, imo, is that if it is well written and interesting, people will want to read it.  If it sucks, and if it is nothing more than a conglomeration of every Western fantasy trope from the last 40 years, no amount of strategic placement is going to make it interesting or readable. 

 

One of the greatest strengths with all of the Forgotten Realms CRPG games that were released over the years is that they were all coming from a pretty good canon of well written -- and in some cases, terrific - lore.  The Forgotten Realms is just an interesting universe, and the stories told within it have tended to be really good.  The problem with a game like Project Eternity is that you are starting from scratch.  It is that much harder to create a body of lore that is durable enough for computer game story telling.  

 

I think they can do it, by the way.  

[aluminiumtrioxid]

The Forgotten Realms is just an interesting universe, and the stories told within it have tended to be really good.  

 

Urm... nope?

[Nonek]

I'm afraid that I have to agree, the Realms were the weakest part of AD&D to me, even Greyhawk was more palatable. Not to mention Ravenloft, Athas, Planescape and Eberron. The Realms were a little too much of a monty haul campaign world for me, with an archmage every ten square feet.

 

Edit: On topic however I think that recieving lore from the horses mouth (so to speak) is a very nice method of exposition, be that the writings on tomb walls, crumbling diaries to translate, summoned spirits or simple stories told in picture form, like the lore of the Hylden and Vampires presented in artistic form in Soul Reaver 2.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Nonek

[decado]

Guys, FR has been their best-selling property, it has been used in the most games

 

 

The Forgotten Realms is just an interesting universe, and the stories told within it have tended to be really good.  

 

Urm... nope?

 

 

Well that's your opinion. I think the universe is probably the best iteration of the western-themed fantasy RPG world since Tolkien. It is not wholly original, and certainly not groundbreaking.  But lore and the pantheon are interesting, and some of the best RPGs ever made were done so using the Forgotten Realms.  

[coffeetable]

some of the best RPGs ever made were despite being set in FR, not because of it

Edited November 21, 2013 by coffeetable

[Wolfenbarg]

The most important thing to remember about lore, imo, is that if it is well written and interesting, people will want to read it.  If it sucks, and if it is nothing more than a conglomeration of every Western fantasy trope from the last 40 years, no amount of strategic placement is going to make it interesting or readable. 

 

One of the greatest strengths with all of the Forgotten Realms CRPG games that were released over the years is that they were all coming from a pretty good canon of well written -- and in some cases, terrific - lore.  The Forgotten Realms is just an interesting universe, and the stories told within it have tended to be really good.  The problem with a game like Project Eternity is that you are starting from scratch.  It is that much harder to create a body of lore that is durable enough for computer game story telling.  

 

I think they can do it, by the way.  

 

I don't think working from scratch is necessarily a hindrance. Having established lore can be a serious issue. When writing Baldur's Gate, Bioware had to decide which aspects of the lore to adhere to specifically, and which to toss out the window. If they held too tightly, that story couldn't have existed at all, and certainly couldn't have ended with you rising up as a new divinity, at least not one with any longevity. In Planescape: Torment, Sigil is such a strongly defined place that you can't really break the rules or challenge the norms despite being the central thread of a new deity, essentially. In Mask of the Betrayer, the whole theme basically goes out the window because the license doesn't allow you to tear down the Wall of the Faithless or really challenge the divines. 

 

Working from scratch, Obsidian can write lore where they can establish a status quo and then completely uproot it by the end. Whatever will best tell the story is completely possible with no strings attached. Bioware has been afraid to do that with Thedas because of their franchising ambitions, but I think Obsidian will actually revel in the opportunity to finally not be bogged down by the rules of existing lore.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Wolfenbarg