skills

[Gromnir]

question:

 

what, if anything, should obsidian do to improve skills in kotor2?

 

as far as Gromnir is concerned, skills was pretty much broken in kotor. lock pick skill? ha! we could bash every door save one anyways. computers? always had spikes or the droid. repair was utterly useless save for if you wanted to upgrade hk-47... but that was it. why not able to upgrade t3-m4? would have been kinda fun if with repair skill you could upgrade both droids to jedi quality standards... maybe repair some ancient special equipment on occasion too... but no. we saw no reason to take any skill save the diplomacy skill, and 'cause the only thing intelligence modified in game was largely useless skills, there not seem to be any good reason to boost int above 8... save as a nod to role-play and wanting our character not to feel like an idiot.

 

am understanding that making game experience different for folks dependent on their skill selection might not be particularly economic. would be nice to be able to solve quests and access completely different quests and areas based on skill selections made during character generation, but spending time and effort on stuff that only a small percentage of total players is gonna see is currently frowned 'pon by crpg developers.

 

so, keeping in mind the realities of industry, how does one make skills useful?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Logan]

I liked the skills, sunk a bunch of intelligence and skill points into them and did'nt really worry about it, then I came here and found out it was all a waste of resources... I guess I fell for it, but it does not bother me, I thought the game was great (combat gets a little boring). Every time I used a skill I figured I was getting some milage out of my skill points, guess not.

 

What was up with security spikes? Never could I make use of them.

 

My suggestions

 

1 - nerf the computer spikes and/or make some options skill-based only. For example, overloading a terminal should require some minimum skill level. Some computers should be way hard to hack.

 

2 - Make some blast proof doors that can only be accessed by high security or computer skill

 

3 - Did anyone ever use stealth? Demolitions?

 

4 - Healing was good, up until force heal.

 

5 - As Grom suggested, make repair skill be applied to more unique events/items. Repair a speeder? A heavy laser cannon? Upgrade the Hawk? Upgrade a racing bike?

 

Just some ideas, been a while since I played KOTOR

[RoGuE JeDi]

What was up with security spikes? Never could I make use of them.

 

My suggestions

 

1 - nerf the computer spikes and/or make some options skill-based only. For example, overloading a terminal should require some minimum skill level. Some computers should be way hard to hack.

 

2 - Make some blast proof doors that can only be accessed by high security or computer skill

 

3 - Did anyone ever use stealth? Demolitions?

 

4 - Healing was good, up until force heal.

 

5 - As Grom suggested, make repair skill be applied to more unique events/items. Repair a speeder? A heavy laser cannon? Upgrade the Hawk? Upgrade a racing bike?

Many of those ideas have great merit. I too had the problem with security spikes and tunnelers, I just sold them every time I received any.

 

The skill sets were acceptable, but need a great deal of refining to be excellent. I'd go more in-depth with the skills, and allow them to play a greater role in the game, as well as do more diverse actions, more frequently.

 

The only time security really made a difference was around Taris. After that, I found myself using it on VERY rare occasions. Repair was useful for HK-47, but other than that I never found a need to repair all the droids found in the game. Computer Use was one of the better skills, but I found that I was using it far too much in the game, compared to the other skills.

 

Hopefully the skills in KotOR 2 will be much more refined and useful. :ph34r:

[Gorth]

It feels like Bioware tried to make the game very "user-friendly". You have to do very silly things to actually "die". Never managed to do that, so i'll have to work harder on that.

 

Same thing with skills. Did feel at bit like, it was aimed at players unfamiliar with crpgs. If you didn't have, or you forgot a skill, you could always compensate through brute force.

 

Looking at the blast door example, it makes sense that a lightsaber can carve through almost anything with a bit of patience, heck, Luke cut his way through the armour of an armoured troop transport (AT-AT) in The Empire strikes back. A lightsaber is sort of a masterkey. Problem is, you got that key very fast in the game, making lockpicking a joke (and Mission part of the Ebon Hawks inventory).

 

I hope they make the lightsaber the reward for completing the game in Kotor2, not something you get in the middle.

 

Same goes for other skills, if you played a scoundrel, you had enough points, to never lack any skill of note, becoming a "Swiss Army Jedi". Drop the spikes, repair parts etc. and make it a threshold difficulty instead (aren't they called DC in the rules system ?). Only if you, or one of your companion is in possession of the necessary skill level, can you actually accomplish you task. If you don't, tough luck, either you can't solve it or you will have to find a work around (or come back at a later time with that upgraded T3 of yours).

 

Kotor was introductory level crpg, I didn't mind, loved the game... Bioware tested the waters and people now expect more from the next game in the series

[Drakron]

Agree, SWKotOR also had some rather insane DCs with just shows how much f***ed up the system was

 

Another thing, break the persuade into diplomacy and intimidate so Guardians are not the masters of diplomacy as consulars and Consulars are not as intimidating as a guardians, that sould allow some replayability as not every dialogue stituation can be solved by the all mighty "persuade".

 

Getting rid of that "item helping" garbage will also help.

[Iolo]

They really do need more skills. I hope this game doesn't come across as just seeming like a very good mod or an expansion pack, as in it does change some of the game mechanics and engine and improves them.

[Frosty_V2.1]

I don't know about needing additional skills, but yea, the existing ones need to be a more important part of the game. What was mentioned about "Repair" and "Security" affecting what you can do with the workbench is a step in the right direction (for loot lovers at least).

 

What Gromnir said about possibly opening up certain quests. I can think of a rough situation like - your ship is damaged and you have it repaired with some help from local techs and upon inspecting you may notice (depending on security or repair skills) a tracker planted on it, and pursue that loose end or you don't notice and get ambushed later and have a different branch there.

Since there are some skills that are generally focused on there could be some quests that cover a couple or few skills so that most would see them during play depending on what skill set they had. I would be glad just to see some class based quests actually.

[Senator PalpaTANG]

I hope they make the lightsaber the reward for completing the game in Kotor2, not something you get in the middle.

What a stupid thing to say. I stopped reading your post after that line as you lost all credibility as an intelligent person.

 

It's a good thing you're not a dev, otherwise all games everywhere would suck. I hope you get banned.

[Winterfox]

I hope they make the lightsaber the reward for completing the game in Kotor2, not something you get in the middle.

Uhm, and piss off... what, 80% of the players?

 

Sorry, but what use would a lightsaber be at the end of the game? For killing the final boss?

[Gorth]

Sorry, but what use would a lightsaber be at the end of the game? For killing the final boss?

Perhaps

 

Ok, so perhaps not for the endgame exclusively, but you do have a problem with a game where you get a tool that will slice through any door, lock or opponent in the beginning of the game. Not really much point in having the game in the first place, if the problemsolver is handed to you immediately. While a lot of the 14 year olds are going to be pissed at not being able to play Kotor2 diablo style, it would be more challenging not having all you need from the word "go". But since I read in the article that you do get to wait quite a while before you get the saber, I'll rest easy and look forward to the game. Compromise is not always a bad thing (unless you are an airtraffic controller)

[kefka]

A Jedi without a lightsaber is like a car without wheels.

 

But since I read in the article that you do get to wait quite a while before you get the saber, I'll rest easy and look forward to the game.

I wouldn't take too much comfort from that, a "while" could mean one hour into the game!

 

I remember Obi Wan lecturing a certain young Jedi - "this weapon is your life!" So what is a Jedi doing without a lightsaber in the first place? It's a design decision but I'm sure the early game could be adjusted to make saber abuse impossible.

 

No matter, all good things come to those who wait.

[Gorth]

I remember Obi Wan lecturing a certain young Jedi - "this weapon is your life!" So what is a Jedi doing without a lightsaber in the first place? It's a design decision but I'm sure the early game could be adjusted to make saber abuse impossible.

If I remember correctly, the story said you had been exiled, without the trappings of a Jedi, hence, no noticeable forcepower nor lightsaber (wonder if you are still wearing the same robe ???). Having no clue about lightsaber construction, I could imagine it would take some skill (especially if you haven't done it for a long time) and some equipment before being able to build a new one. This might be Obsidians "gimmick" for allowing balanced lowlevel play, it might not. Could be a long wait until 2005, unless they start announcing something substantial to really disagree about

[Antagonist]

Why don't they use this Corthosis Weave to explain why doors cannot be bashed by lightsabers ? It couldn't get any sillier than having weapons which can withstand a lightsaber.

[Gorth]

What is Corthosis Weave ?

 

It wasn't exactly explained in the game, other than as a reson for a blade not falling apart when sparring against lightsabers. Apparantly all swords in the universe is made of it, so it can't be particular uncommon.

 

How did this end up being a discussion about lightsabers... ?

 

Oh, yeah, because lightsabers had a damaging influence on the use of and balancing of other skills

[Winterfox]

From the CUSWE:

 

Cortosis

   

this unsusual ore was known to repel the energy of a lightsaber blade. It was believed that Emperor Palpatine had some of the walls in the Imperial Palace on Coruscant lined with cortosis. The Jensaarai sect also used strands of this ore to layer their unique armor. Using the Force, they wove the cortosis into the shapes of vicious, predatory animals, making their armor forbidding as well as better able to defend themselves. The Chiss also knew of the strengths of cortosis, and used it in the walls that formed the Hand of Thrawn fortress on Nirauan. Despite its resistance to the blade of a lightsaber, cortosis was unstable in the presence of explosives, and would shatter if hit with a grenade. (IJ, VOF)

[MrBrown]

I haven't played KotOR1, but the computer skill and spikes things sounds like it should be made to work like lockpicking in Geneforge.

 

Basically, the difficulty of the task and your skill level should determine the amounts of spikes you need to use to perform the task. If you have high skill, you can do stuff without using any spikes, but if you have zero skill, it'll take alot of spikes (and the resources spent to get those spikes) to do it.

 

This way, both the spikes and the skill are meaningful, and it won't become a case of having the skill or not (which kinda sucks because it means that whatever that task does would only be available to character with the skill; would mean that only pointless non-necessary stuff can be achieved with the skill).

[kefka]

Basically, the difficulty of the task and your skill level should determine the amounts of spikes you need to use to perform the task.

That's how computer spikes work in Kotor. Your skill level determines the amount. Security spikes provide a bonus instead.

 

I don't use either to any great extent though. I would rate computer use slightly higher than security if I had to choose.

[Drakron]

Wrong,in SWKotOR for every 4 skill points you need one less computer spike.

 

Also that is not HOW the d20 funtion or INTENDS to funtion, you cannot simply use resources to compensate the lack of skill in a area ... lets not forget its a TEAM game were each character chips in his skill.

 

What SWKotOR did was the "do it al" character that need no help from its companions as long he had enough resources, hardly a team oriented game.

[kefka]

Wrong,in SWKotOR for every 4 skill points you need one less computer spike.

That's what I meant when I said skill level determines the amount. I worded it badly though which made it sound like skill level = number of spikes, not a reduction.

 

Also that is not HOW the d20 funtion or INTENDS to funtion, you cannot simply use resources to compensate the lack of skill in a area ... lets not forget its a TEAM game were each character chips in his skill.

Yes, that was a problem with the original but will surely be addressed in the sequel. Your companion skills need to be taken into account more. Hell, I only use a couple of skills and never had a problem with anything. It would be nice to ask your team for help and not for some scripted event like the Sith base or vulkar forcefield on Taris.

[Drakron]

That is what I want, removal of spikes and all that trash to make skill base characters useful.

 

T3 was the best example, its whole funtion on the game was opeing ONE door and nothing more, I would not think its strange one of the "quests" require us to break into a heavly guarded base and cannot take a direct combat option, having a droid that could open and close doors to make way to the quest objective without facing combat (or at least not the entire base at once) would make a fine adiction to gameplay and even better if it was the player skill that made it.

[Schazzwozzer]

Unfortunately, the character development system is kind of hopelessly screwed up in its most basic elements. The system treats the ability scores (STR, DEX, INT, etc) as though they are all equal in worth and this is obviously not the case. Unfortunately, I doubt that it is within Obsidian's power to, say, collapse INT and CHA into a single score or turn them into derivative stats. WotC would probably have a problem with that. In any case, any effort to better equal out the six ability scores would be beneficial.

 

The development system also seems to suffer from the delusion that a player can talk or hack his way through the game. This is also just not true. The only solution that is universally applicable is combat; a player can fight his way through the game and, indeed, has to be able to fight in order to complete the game. In my opinion, KotOR 2 needs to accept this and adapt accordingly. Combat will always be the primary solution. As such, there should be no class that is incapable in combat. Ideally, all classes would be equal in combat. This was more or less true of the three jedi classes (they were all adept in combat, merely in varying ways), but was not true of the mundane classes, specifically the Scoundrel and, to a lesser extent, the Scout.

 

All other solutions (persuasion, hacking, stealth) should be acknowledged and accepted as secondary solutions. The player would be presented with opportunities to choose these solutions, but would never be required to use these skills to complete the game.

 

Since a distinction would be drawn between combat and the secondary solutions, I think that it would be prudent for the character development system to reflect this. Feats and Powers would deal specifically with combat and Skills would deal exclusively with secondary solutions. This was mostly already true in KotOR1, but the Awareness and Treat Injury skills kind of step into the territory of combat or, at the very least, do not facilitate any kind of secondary solution so directly as, for example, Persuasion or Computer Use do. Personally, I would turn the Awareness and Treat Injury skills into derivative stats (Reflex save determines Awareness perhaps, etc).

 

Since all classes would be equal in combat, I think it would only be fair that all classes gain equal skill points (INT modifier taken into account, I suppose). It's admittedly somewhat vanilla, but it would result in more balanced characters. You wouldn't have pure skill characters (Mission, T4) that are impotent in combat, but would have a roster of characters, all capable in combat, but specialized in different skills. You're more likely to make use of the secondary solutions if every character has at least one skill that he or she is good at.

 

And then it's just a matter of making sure that the skills are all inter-balanced. The designers would need to keep track of how often each skill can be used and the rewards for using them, maintaining a general balance amongst it all.

 

I think that's about the most balanced the character development system could get without significant core alterations.

[MrBrown]

The development system also seems to suffer from the delusion that a player can talk or hack his way through the game. This is also just not true. The only solution that is universally applicable is combat; a player can fight his way through the game and, indeed, has to be able to fight in order to complete the game. In my opinion, KotOR 2 needs to accept this and adapt accordingly. Combat will always be the primary solution. As such, there should be no class that is incapable in combat. Ideally, all classes would be equal in combat. This was more or less true of the three jedi classes (they were all adept in combat, merely in varying ways), but was not true of the mundane classes, specifically the Scoundrel and, to a lesser extent, the Scout.

 

All other solutions (persuasion, hacking, stealth) should be acknowledged and accepted as secondary solutions. The player would be presented with opportunities to choose these solutions, but would never be required to use these skills to complete the game.

Another way of doing this (and IMO, better) would be that the secondary methods help out the combat indirectly. For instance, lessen the amount of enemies, weaken them somehow, give you allies, get you powerful items earlier, take away traps/stationary defenses, etc., anything that fits in the game. I think this kinda designing method would be a better solution than simply making all the classes equal combatwise, as that would lessen character development options for the player.

 

Otherwise, I agree with you 100%. D20 is combat=primary method, everything else=secondary method.

[AlanC9]

Another way of doing this (and IMO, better) would be that the secondary methods help out the combat indirectly. For instance, lessen the amount of enemies, weaken them somehow, give you allies, get you powerful items earlier, take away traps/stationary defenses, etc., anything that fits in the game. I think this kinda designing method would be a better solution than simply making all the classes equal combatwise, as that would lessen character development options for the player.

But that's how it worked in KotOR already. Activating a disabled droid givers you an ally, hacking the security system could disable static defenses and/or kill a bunch of enemies.

 

The big problem with the KotOR implementation is that it is only helpful in a couple of places (the places where skill-less characters always find a key card or some such). KotOR missions aren't attrition struggles, where you have to worry about conserving your healing resources. So it doesn't really matter if you take out the guards with skills or with combat. A couple of Force Heals put you right back up to full power. If anything, combat is cheaper, since Force Heal is free and spikes and parts always cost you. And skills are no help at all against bosses, so all characters need to be able to fight. Good thing KotOR makes you take Jedi levels.

 

I'm not sure that removing spikes would really make as much of a difference as some people think. In my experience, and from what I understand of others' playstyles, just about nobody uses spikes to make up for not having skill points. People who want to use skills either play a scout or bring T3; otherwise, they ignore the skills and brute-force their way through.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong. Did anyone here actually use lots of spikes and parts to make up for not having skill points?

[Gromnir]

now that the devs is answering questions, Gromnir is wondering if the obsidian folks is taking an "if it ain't broken..." approach to skills as they is to combat. will skills be treated largely as they was in kotor? if changes to skills is made will they be superficial or substantial? will there be more quests that is limited to folks whose primary character has a requisite skill level? will game play different for folks depending on what skills they takes? will the skills be better balanced than they was in kotor? etc.

 

whatever thoughts developers wish to share concerning kotor2 skills would be much appreciated... honest.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Shdy314]

How could they have an if it ain't broken approach to skills when they are so obviously broken?

These are my thoughts and an attempt to organize the problems with skills so not every idea is good. Please expand on mine and chime in with your own.

 

Ok, so there were a lot of problems with skills. The biggest problem, as was mentioned, is of course the lightsaber. So the question becomes how do we keep the lightsaber as powerful as it should be without nerfing it with something as stupid as putting Cortosis in everything? Which I will address in Security.

 

We also need to think of how every skill was implemented and what made it useless?

 

Awareness: Arguably this and demolitions were the second least useless skills since credits were so hard to come by in the game (X-box version at least) I always used Mission to recover traps and then sell them. However the traps did not do nearly enough damage. By the end I could run through them and If I needed to then force heal. And there were not nearly enough. I wouldn't change this skill other than to put in more traps and increase their damage. This would neccessitate making Powerful hostile NPCs like Dark Jedi do awareness checks or for gameplay reasons traps just don't do as much to enemies as they do to you. Otherwise setting traps and luring enemies could become really cheesy like in Throne of Bhaal. I think being a Jedi should confer an automatic bonus in this well as well due to the force and/or allows you to run without awareness penalties. Also possibly use it in dialogue sometimes to use this as insight. Like PE in FO2.

 

Demolitions: Basically the same as Awareness. Increased power in traps makes recovering/disarming them more important and desirable. Careful scaling of their difficulty to disarm and their damage ability makes keeping this skill high more important.

 

Computer Use: Everything important had a keycard. No way around this except for missions where someone with high computer use HAS to be in your party. The suggestion to remove computer spikes comepletely is a good one. There were hundreds and hundreds of spikes in the game. I didn't care if the cost was 20 or 2 I am willing to bet if you took all the spikes in the game and then checked the maximum cost for every time you could use them there'd be a lot more spikes than uses. Hacking should be based solely on the skill and have DC like traps. A FEW spikes throughout the game to help in one time situations is fine. High computer use can be neccessary in sidequests just not plot critical ones.

 

Stealth: IS useful. I know not many people used it but Mission can be a real bad ass with it. HOWEVER the belt is no good. It isn't so useful you'll want your character to wear a stealth belt over something like CNS strength amplifier. And switching the stealth belt to CNS after every "backstab" would be annoying as hell. So get rid of the belt. Items can still enhance it but not be required. To appease people that want realism simply make it activated by some item in your inventory or even kewler add it to the equippable inventory. Like an addon that can be attached to any belt. This would allow for some cool new items that clip onto your belt and let someone with a low stealth skill but a really good stealth enhancer slip by low DC aware enemies.

 

Repair: Only useful for HK-47. Apparently it and security will now affect the workbench and people have already made some really good suggestions so I can skip over this.

 

Persuade: Slightly useful. As with the other skills include more times to use it AND make it a viable alternative to Dominate:Mind. For example dont let me use dominate when it's a powerful force user. Make it less likely to work on force users so If Im really charismatic I'll have a better chance with Persuade than Dominate:Mind. Let Dominate Mind work as a back-up in some situations so If I fail in a persuade check I'll have the option then to Dominate:Mind. Make other characters more mindful of when and how I use it. There were some great conversations with party members when you used it especially for landing fees. That was great but all they did was talk. Hopefully this should be a part of the party members reacting more to a DS or LS character. This way I can ask for a larger reward from a good person using persuade and not get DS points and not angering good people but using Dominate:Mind to do it would be.

 

(Longest because it addresses the lightsaber issue) Security: The lightsaber issue. Yes, the lightsaber is the master key and should remain so. Here's what you do. Trap more items! This is so easily explained in a futuristic universe. In bases for example practically everything should rigged to either explode or set off an alarm that spawns extra enemies that converge on the alarm. Why? Very simply, KEYPADS. Security should be able to hack them and open doors and let you feel stealthy and sly where a brute character forces it open alerts the whole base, maybe sets off a bomb (now more damaging) and fights extra enemies. If the keypad is destroyed by a lightsaber or senses a door open without a code being entered there should be repercussions!

 

Hacking should be a part of security and vice versa. Security should be enhanced SLIGHTLY with stealth. Perhaps these could be sync bonuses like in NWN a certain amount of ranks in disarm traps got you a +1 in setting them and vice versa. Let characters inclined to steal (especially DS people) anything that isn't bolted down stealth and then use security to open containers and steal from them without being caught and without turning characters hostile. Like a DS character may want to steal some armor from a Republic base but for many realistiuc and logical reasons doesn't want to anyone to know and have to slaughter a bunch of soldiers. Or even an LS character that justifies it by really needing the armor BUT obviously doesn't want to kill a bunch of good guys for it.

 

I asked way back when in the KOTOR forums and was assured some things wouldn't be bashable and there would be opportunities where you would want to steal unseen rather than kill everyone and bash open containers but I was lied to. Also if combat is made more difficult this will encourage stealthy play. One possibility is to let the extra guards spawned in by the alarm give no xp or equipment. Then players will really want to avoid smashing their way through what should be a very heavily well defended base.

 

Not every place should be like this obviously. Go ahead and let plenty of doors and containers be openable by lightsaber but keep it in context. A lock box in an apartment obviously wouldn't be trapped with a bomb or summon a bunch of guards. Some very important doors can be lightsaber immune. These can be big thick vault or blast doors etc. with cortosis and very difficult keypads to hack. Take for example that mining station the Ebon Hawk is on. Maybe there is a big vault like area with some super valuable ore or a lightsaber crystal or tons of credits that is quite obviously very expensively designed to keep people out no matter what. Then security people could try to hack the keypad. Computer users may find it buried deep in a computer's encrypted files and brute characters may find it in a desk that in addition to being trapped also is by a worthy foe they have to fight.

 

Finally the most useless skill

Treat Injury: Way more useless than even security or computer use. Why? One reason and one reason only: Force Cure/Heal. I must admit I'm kind of stumped by this one. I don't think I want to decrease the effectiveness of force healing or anything and should definitely be kept. You'd have to increase the medkits usefulness by a ridiculous amount and if you did that it'd probably already heal enough where it didn't matter if your treat injury was 0. I don't think crippled limbs and making it a doctor like skill is feasible either. Maybe just nix it comepletely. Ideas on this are very welcome.

 

FINALLY (I know big sigh of relief) lessen the number of items there are that increase skills or make skill DCs very high. With the proper items Canderous could have some really high awareness and demolitions. Most characters by the end had some outrageously high skills with nothing in the game nearly difficult enough to justify needing them so high. So give out fewer skill points and items OR increase the DC. Make specialists more viable and make it so your character cannot do everything alone. And definitely do not add skills. Make the ones already in more useful in more situations. This is a lot better than having 20 skills and 2 times where each one is truly useful.

 

Questions, suggestions, etc. all welcome so long as they are constructive and not "That is the longest dumbest post I've ever seen," kind of stuff.