File locations and override folder organisation

[Silent Winter]

Tried a couple of searches but didn't get a match - if this has been covered before, then please point me / update me.

 

1) In BG, IWD et al, the files were all located within the main game folder (saves, override, etc).

In NWN2 I was forced to have saves and mods etc in the My Documents folder on the C: drive, regardless of where the main game was installed.

 

I prefer the former - let us choose where to install our game and have the assets stored with it.

My C: drive has very little space and I like to keep my games on the much larger D: drive.

 

Q: Is there a technical reason for needing external folders for saves/overrides?

 

2) In BG / IWD, the override folder became a large salad of files,

In NWN2, sub-folders could be used to keep related files together.

 

I prefer the latter - makes installing and removing mods much easier (for things like portrait and AI mods especially).

Can we have this for PE?

Edited November 7, 2013 by Silent Winter

[samm]

Regarding the save file location, this is determined by the version of Windows used. I fully concur with your sentiment against spamming the Documents library with folders upon folders of savegames, but I'm afraid there's not much to be done about it if the Devs don't want to break Windows conventions.

[Pipyui]

Yes, saving game files into the My Documents folder is a windows convention, but it is by no mean a rule.  There is nothing stopping a developer from keeping the save files within the game directory.  As to another question, the code to recursively access an Override directory is also trivial, there should be no reason that PE can't do it.

[samm]

User permissions are the problem with putting save files into the game directory. If the player isn't on an Admin account, there are no write permissions for a folder under program files, so it all gets saved to a "virtual store" folder under the user profile path - not really an advantage over the My Documents library, where at least the files are easily backed up / copied to a new PC etc.

[Sensuki]

Personally I'd prefer it the save folder was in the game folder. Unity by default does not expose the game files, you have to structure it like that yourself.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Excellent topic.

 

Please let me determine where profiles, saved games, etc. are stored. I hate how gaming has overtaken my documents folder. That is where I keep *actual* documents--not a sea of folders from games. Please permit the usable storage of these items in the game's installation directory, like it used to be.

[AwesomeOcelot]

It's good practice to separate the config files from the application but it's bad practice to hard code the directories.

[Sensuki]

It might just be me but I never install games to my Program Files folder. I have a separate drive for that and my Steam is on a different drive as well. I have an old SSD (60GB) so the only things that go on that is Windows, programs and temporary downloads / stuff like that.

 

I prefer config files and saves in the actual game folder because the game folder does not get deleted, whereas I format my system drive a few times a year (now I've gotten into imaging it instead), mostly to try and troubleshoot mouse input lag created by installing programs. If I do go and delete a game folder, if I want to keep the saves I back them up.

The average user probably only has one hard drive though and just uses the default install location.

[Silent Winter]

Excellent topic.

 

Please let me determine where profiles, saved games, etc. are stored. I hate how gaming has overtaken my documents folder. That is where I keep *actual* documents--not a sea of folders from games. Please permit the usable storage of these items in the game's installation directory, like it used to be.

This is how I feel about it.

 

How hard would it be to let us select "Save file location" where we want it? (and use that too for config files, mods or anything else)?

You're just pointing the program where to look for it and so long as there's a .ini file in the game folder to tell it where to look... (admittedly, my grasp of programming is very limited so that's an honest question above)

[AwesomeOcelot]

I've pretty much lost this battle anyway, I just create my own document directories with my own organisation. Half of this stuff isn't even installed any more, but because Steam doesn't give me the option like an uninstaller would to remove saved files, it just stays there..This is what My Documents looks like, I don't put anything in there:

 

AfSpace

Amazon Music Importer

Amnesia

ASUS

Bioshock

BloodBowlChaos

Bluetooth Folder

DeadIsland

Eidos

Gaslamp Games

gegl-0.0

Giana Sisters - Rise of the Owlverlord

Giana Sisters - Twisted Dreams

Hard Reset

Larian Studios

Max Payne 2 Savegames

microsoft (WTF Microsoft, this is just a bunch of folders with nothing in anyway)

Mutant Blobs Attack

My Games (Hey, maybe some of these games could have used this, there's 15 in there, less than outside)

Nero Collections

NeroVision

NFS SHIFT

Orcs Must Die

Osmos

Overlord

Paradox Interactive

Puddle

Remedy (how about patching Max Payne 2 to go in here Remedy)

Robot Entertainment

SEGA

SEGA Mega Drive Classics

Shiner

Square Enix

Telltale Games

Universe Sandbox

Virtual Machines

WB Games

Witcher 2

[soulburner]

Yep, games creating their own folders in the Documents directory causes a terrible mess. I believe games should either use C:\[username]\Saved Games location or My Games subfolder inside Documents. It would finally allow the Documents library to be useful for documents without adding an additional location to it.

 

I don't think adding an option to choose where the game saves it's user data would be useful but I would like if the files would be kept in one of the aforementioned locations (for example, c:\[username]\Saved Games\Project Eternity) and not in, for example,  Documents\Obsidian Entertainment.

Edited November 12, 2013 by soulburner

[Sensuki]

Yep, games creating their own folders in the Documents directory causes a terrible mess. I believe games should either use C:\[username]\Saved Games location or My Games subfolder inside Documents. It would finally allow the Documents library to be useful for documents without adding an additional location to it.

 

I don't think adding an option to choose where the game saves it's user data would be useful but I would like if the files would be kept in one of the aforementioned locations (for example, c:\[username]\Saved Games\Project Eternity) and not in, for example,  Documents\Obsidian Entertainment.

 

Would be cool if you could set your own savegame location in the .ini file or whatever.

[Silent Winter]

I don't think adding an option to choose where the game saves it's user data would be useful but I would like if the files would be kept in one of the aforementioned locations (for example, c:\[username]\Saved Games\Project Eternity) and not in, for example,  Documents\Obsidian Entertainment.

Except that there are those of us who wouldn't choose the C: drive at all.

Your 2 suggestions might be fine for you (and I agree that they're better than just "my docs") so you don't see a need for being able to choose the location.  But neither of your 2 suggested locations would be great for me.

I like to keep all my game-data together on the D: drive since that has the space for them.  My C: drive does not.  So I dislike being made to install something in a location of the developers' choosing (be it the whole game or just mods/saves) unless there is a technical need for it.

(I'm probably jumping the gun on the mods issue but my BGT override folder grew to epic proportions and my NWN2 folder is also very large)

 

Edits for it not posting the whole post glitches

Edited November 13, 2013 by Silent Winter

[soulburner]

I understand why you would like to keep all game related data in the game folder. Giving gamers an option to choose where user files are stored wouldn't be a bad thing and I'd probably prefer not to use any files on C: drive either.

 

By default, however, the game will have to use the C: drive due to how Windows works since Vista and samm wrote about it in the first posts in this thread (yes, there is a technical reason why files are created in %appdata% or Documents). The problem now is how to tell the game to look for user data elsewhere? An ini file on the C: drive?

 

Anyway, I don't think such an option will be available. Users who install their games on other partitions or disks are usually proficient with computers enough to use hard links to suppress any access by selected applications to their overgrown C: drives.

Edited November 13, 2013 by soulburner

[Neurological]

Well unity let reference an assetpath called StreamingAssets, creating this folder upon building the game it will be made avaible to be used by the game. Take for example Shadowrun Returns for example it uses that internal folder to parse data without the hassle. I did a test with it to write directly into that folder in a txt file for later parsing and it was all ok.

 

more on it here: http://docs.unity3d.com/Documentation/Manual/StreamingAssets.html

 

Still doesn't specify if you need admin access or not, but is a usefull resource folder also for an eventual Override system like in BG.

[Silent Winter]

By default, however, the game will have to use the C: drive due to how Windows works since Vista and samm wrote about it in the first posts in this thread (yes, there is a technical reason why files are created in %appdata% or Documents). The problem now is how to tell the game to look for user data elsewhere? An ini file on the C: drive?

Ah, ok - when they said "windows conventions" I figured 'convention'='how things are usually done' rather than 'hard-coded to work this way'.

(I'm still on XP so not going to get to know those fun'n'games until I can upgrade my whole system in a year or so).

If gog offered Linux support, I'd get the Linux version instead.

[Azmodan]

Hi,

 

Not sure if this might answer your question, but which OS are you using?

I'm using Windows 7, in the start menu, if you right-click on the "Documents" (also works for Downloads), you can actually re-map the whole location to another drive.

For those of you who have SSDs, this might be a good work-around as it minimises writes to an SSD for what is seldom-used re-writeable data.

 

Please note - if you don't have a recent install of Windows and you remap your folders, you may screw something up, so this optimisation is best done after a fresh install.

[Luridis]

Just an FYI for you guys... Saving "user specific application data" in the "My Documents" directory is the "Microsoft Way." Just like /home is for *NIX OSes. On Windows Vista and newer, you might need to run the application as an Administrator in order to save some things in the %PROGRAM FILES% environment.

 

Personally, I prefer it to save in my user directory (My Documents) because I know all my saves get backed up with my user profile.

[Luridis]

Hi,

 

Not sure if this might answer your question, but which OS are you using?

I'm using Windows 7, in the start menu, if you right-click on the "Documents" (also works for Downloads), you can actually re-map the whole location to another drive.

For those of you who have SSDs, this might be a good work-around as it minimises writes to an SSD for what is seldom-used re-writeable data.

 

Please note - if you don't have a recent install of Windows and you remap your folders, you may screw something up, so this optimisation is best done after a fresh install.

 

I tried this and the remapping was ignored by many programs. I use a SSD and did this by logging in as administrator, opening the registry, and changing the master path for user directories to my E: Drive, which is a 2TB mirror.

[omeg]

You can also make "directory junctions" on a NTFS file system that function like Unix links (you can have the "real" Users folder somewhere else, and c:\users would be just a link to that).

 

That said, nothing's keeping Obsidian from implementing a setting for save/override location, but that's an added work.

[Alm888]

When I was under Windows (some six years ago) I witnessed saves to be stored in:

1) ./SAVEGAME/ directory

2) C:/[game name] (yes, right in the root directory)

3) C:/Documents and Settings/[name]/[game name]/ directory

4) C:/Documents and Settings/[name]/Local Settings/[game name]/ directory

5) C:/Documents and Settings/[name]/Games/ directory (this is getting ridiculous)

6) C:/Documents and Settings/[name]/My Games/ directory

7) C:/Documents and Settings/[name]/Мои игры/ directory (yes, in russian. This thing does not know localization support.)

etc

 

And that was under XP. I believe Windows 6.0, 6.1, 6.2, 6.3 and so on introduced new places. Either guides on this matter do not exist or no one bothers reading them. Every programmer just designs things individually.

 

There was no such place as "My documents" folder before. When XP (or was it 2000?) came out and all that "Documents and Settings" stuff was introduced I myself and all my friends just stored valuable data separately (on D: drive) so when (not "if") the need to reinstall Windows arises we could just sacrifice drive C: (reformat it) and move on.

 

In other words there is no such thing as "windows conventions". Windows uses must accept their fate of living in this everchanging environment.

 

But in UNIX nowadays every per-user config should be placed in ~/.config/ and ~/.local/ directories.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Alm888

[soulburner]

The only thing that can be said about a "windows convention" is no saving files in the application folder, only in the user directories. Unfortunately, that didn't decrease the amount of files and folders created by different games in different locations. Painful to monitor and backup.

[Silverfox]

i have a small SSD for C: and try to install many things (program files, My Documents) on my HDD.

[Alm888]

i have a small SSD for C: and try to install many things (program files, My Documents) on my HDD.

When I was under Widows I didn't see any reason to rescue program files. Many Windows applications (those from the Microsoft itself in the first place) just won't work without their registry entries even if all their files were saved on a separate HDD.

 

So, IMO, there is no point to make separate partition or hardware disk for program files. Just let them die alongside OS in case of complete collapse and reinstall them later. And when placed on fast SSD they will load faster (maybe, I don't have one).

[Frenetic Pony]

A. Screw the override file

B. Screw the... anything else from Infinity Engine mods

 

Just copy The Elderscrolls if at all possible. The active/deactive data archives is just... waaaay better. Way better. You can just activate entirely new games with a different 'master file'. And you do/do not want a mod? Just click to activate it or deactivate it. I'm replaying NWN2 now, modded, and the installation process is just a pain. Especially with the stupid Dialog.tlk master file needing to be changed for certain things, so you can only have 1 mod that changes that, so you need to merge mods that change it manually and... ugh.