Tel Afar, primary school attacked

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Why should anyone be required to speak out against terrorism? Almost every time this topic comes up, the inevitable "moderate Muslims need to speak out against this" comment is made. Do we need college students to speak out every time some deranged twit goes on a rampage? Should all Catholics of Irish decent have had to apologize every time the NRA blew something up? Why the hell should someone who did not do the act of terrorism be required to apologize and/or condemn the acts of another publicly? Do you people think the extremists really give a **** whether or not these people wag their finger and call them ****?

Always seem to have a vibe of 'they must declare their loyalty loudly, lest they attract suspicion' when there's a call for people in the same group as some other people to speak out. Sensible ones just need to rat out ones tending to extremism.

But what if they don't know anyone trending towards extremism? Muslims living in (insert Western nation) may not actually know anyone who is planning to blow something up.

[Walsingham]

I think there's another point to keep in mind: rebellion.

 

There's a different pattern in - for example - Pakistan and Britain. Over here we get jifs emerging from supportive moderate middle class professional families.

 

This is pure speculation, but my guess is that the little bastards get to adulthood and suddenly find out that only mummy thinks they're a special manly snowflake. So they embrace a fascistic message that puts them in special touch with God. Not a million miles away from Breivik, ironically.

[Malcador]

But what if they don't know anyone trending towards extremism? Muslims living in (insert Western nation) may not actually know anyone who is planning to blow something up.

Then there's nothing they need to do.

[Meshugger]

Combine a couple of things:

 

- Religion based on submission and war with no introspection or mysticism

- Culture where knowledge, critical thinking, love and compassion is seen as a weakness at best

- People who are marrying cousins or are forced into marriage as the general norm

 

...and you are only left with savages reigning.

[Tagaziel]

Yeah, medieval Europe was pretty nasty.

[BruceVC]

IMO there is an issue around how parts of the Muslim community understands political events and how they then act on them

 

For example in South Africa most Muslims think that the West is on some insidious campaign to destroy Islam and every single time the West gets involved in any kind of political or military event I hear people phoning in on Talk Shows and quoting absurd conspiracy theories around the reasons. People defend the dictator Gaddafi and the fact he was removed from power through Western intervention, they think that Assad is a good and benevolent ruler, and say things like " the Kenyans deserved to be attacked by Al-Shabaab as Kenya invaded another country"

Yet they are unconcerned with the horrific sectarian violence perpetuated by Muslims against Muslims in countries like Iraq, Pakistan and Egypt. The only time you see condemnation is when its the West getting involved

 

So an important question is "where do some of these Muslims get there information from" that then allows them to formulate such an anti-western view

 

In South Africa part of this is from the Mosques that they go to on Fridays. I believe most of this misinformation and diatribe is from the Mosques and what they are taught. So I would argue it is up to moderate Muslims to set the record straight on certain global developments and ensure that there is less anti-western sentiment.

[Walsingham]

Very VERY good point, Bruce.

[Hurlshort]

That is also why it is important for the Western media to make it very clear that there is no master plan to wipe out Islam.  There is tremendous ignorance on both sides here.

[Walsingham]

Stop and consider, Hurlshot. There's plenty of folk on these damn forums who claim to be enemies of Islam. Hardly very reassuring for muslims.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Walsingham

[Malcador]

That is also why it is important for the Western media to make it very clear that there is no master plan to wipe out Islam.  There is tremendous ignorance on both sides here.

Assuming they would trust Western media.

[Meshugger]

Yeah, medieval Europe was pretty nasty.

 

Yeah, those are exactly comparable. Like, absolutely no difference at all.

[NOK222]

Stop and consider, Hurlshot. There's plenty of folk on these damn forums who claim to be enemies of Islam. Hardly very reassuring for muslims.

 

Oh please, stop exaggerating, criticizing Islam is not the same as being an enemy of it. That's like saying I'm a Nazi for criticizing Israel. Which I do. 

[Hurlshort]

 

Stop and consider, Hurlshot. There's plenty of folk on these damn forums who claim to be enemies of Islam. Hardly very reassuring for muslims.

 

Oh please, stop exaggerating, criticizing Islam is not the same as being an enemy of it. That's like saying I'm a Nazi for criticizing Israel. Which I do. 

 

 

I am talking more about a matter of perspective.  From the perspective of a person living in a country where there is no freedom of the press, opening up a western newspaper and reading criticisms of Islam comes across as much more threatening towards their way of life.  Couple that with the outright lies that many extremists groups propagate, it is very easy to understand why Muslims throughout the Islamic world believe the biggest threat to them is the West.

 

The path to peace requires peace, understanding, and acceptance on all sides.  Criticism has its time and place, and it isn't at the start of the discussion.

[NOK222]

 

 

Stop and consider, Hurlshot. There's plenty of folk on these damn forums who claim to be enemies of Islam. Hardly very reassuring for muslims.

 

Oh please, stop exaggerating, criticizing Islam is not the same as being an enemy of it. That's like saying I'm a Nazi for criticizing Israel. Which I do. 

 

 

I am talking more about a matter of perspective.  From the perspective of a person living in a country where there is no freedom of the press, opening up a western newspaper and reading criticisms of Islam comes across as much more threatening towards their way of life.  Couple that with the outright lies that many extremists groups propagate, it is very easy to understand why Muslims throughout the Islamic world believe the biggest threat to them is the West.

 

The path to peace requires peace, understanding, and acceptance on all sides.  Criticism has its time and place, and it isn't at the start of the discussion.

 

 

Their culture's destiny is in their hand. I am not responsible for the use of criticism in order to fuel their ire. 

[alanschu]

 

 

I am talking more about a matter of perspective.  From the perspective of a person living in a country where there is no freedom of the press, opening up a western newspaper and reading criticisms of Islam comes across as much more threatening towards their way of life.  Couple that with the outright lies that many extremists groups propagate, it is very easy to understand why Muslims throughout the Islamic world believe the biggest threat to them is the West.

 

I had a huge falling out with one of my best friends because his wife consistently passed along chain letters that often included critiques of Islam which basically showed that their "march of peace" demonstrations involved grabbing guns and killing people, and how passing **** like that on only makes things worse.

[NOK222]

 

I am talking more about a matter of perspective.  From the perspective of a person living in a country where there is no freedom of the press, opening up a western newspaper and reading criticisms of Islam comes across as much more threatening towards their way of life.  Couple that with the outright lies that many extremists groups propagate, it is very easy to understand why Muslims throughout the Islamic world believe the biggest threat to them is the West.

 

I had a huge falling out with one of my best friends because his wife consistently passed along chain letters that often included critiques of Islam which basically showed that their "march of peace" demonstrations involved grabbing guns and killing people, and how passing **** like that on only makes things worse.

 

 

That's just sad. 

[Hiro Protagonist]

 

 

I am talking more about a matter of perspective.  From the perspective of a person living in a country where there is no freedom of the press, opening up a western newspaper and reading criticisms of Islam comes across as much more threatening towards their way of life.  

 

I'm wondering what sort of countries you're talking about that don't have freedom of the press, yet have Western newspapers at their newstands.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

 

I am talking more about a matter of perspective.  From the perspective of a person living in a country where there is no freedom of the press, opening up a western newspaper and reading criticisms of Islam comes across as much more threatening towards their way of life.  

 

I'm wondering what sort of countries you're talking about that don't have freedom of the press, yet have Western newspapers at their newstands.

 

 

I was simplifying the argument a bit, since in the digital age the concept of press is much more complicated.  But a country like Iran isn't necessarily completely cut off from Western Media, it just has a better chance of seeing only the reports that the ruling party can benefit from.

[HoonDing]

[Walsingham]

 

Stop and consider, Hurlshot. There's plenty of folk on these damn forums who claim to be enemies of Islam. Hardly very reassuring for muslims.

 

Oh please, stop exaggerating, criticizing Islam is not the same as being an enemy of it. That's like saying I'm a Nazi for criticizing Israel. Which I do. 

 

How are you lining up that logic?

[BruceVC]

 

 

Stop and consider, Hurlshot. There's plenty of folk on these damn forums who claim to be enemies of Islam. Hardly very reassuring for muslims.

 

Oh please, stop exaggerating, criticizing Islam is not the same as being an enemy of it. That's like saying I'm a Nazi for criticizing Israel. Which I do. 

 

How are you lining up that logic?

 

 

I do get what NKKK is saying, he is saying to be critical of certain aspects of the practice of modern day Islam doesn't mean you are anti-Muslim

 

There are certain times where we have all condemned what is clearly an anachronistic interpretation of Islam that we see practiced in certain countries.

 

Also its not like the West doesn't receive loads of diatribe from Muslim extremists on forums and websites?

[Walsingham]

But he said that to be critical of Israel was to be critical of the Nazis. How the funt does that work?

[BruceVC]

But he said that to be critical of Israel was to be critical of the Nazis. How the funt does that work?

 

 

Okay but he may have edited his comments because it makes sense now. He is saying that you are not a Nazi if you criticize Israel, you could just have issues with there political decisions but you aren't anti semitic like Nazis were

[Walsingham]

It doesn't make you a nazi. But it does make you anti-Israel.

 

Being anti-Islam means you're anti-Islam.

[Nepenthe]

It doesn't make you a nazi. But it does make you anti-Israel.

 

Being anti-Islam means you're anti-Islam.

 

Iii don't think that being critical of something makes you anti-something. You might support something as an ideology/idea, yet be critical of its present state. I mean, I don't consider myself anti-democracy when I criticise politicians.