Update #65: Ciphers

[Gfted1]

Sorry, my bad. Attack of Opportunity has a nice ring to it.

No, you were right. In PE is called a Disengagement Attack but its origin was in D&D where it was known as Attack of Opportunity.

 

And I had totally forgotten about that update.

[PrimeJunta]

@forgottenlor, yeah, you do lose out on area of effect damage spells, but you gain on area of effect buffs and de-buffs. The challenge is "how to deal with a mob." Either way will do it. In other words, I stand by my position that clerics and druids are just about as effective as wizards/sorcerers when dealing with mobs; it's just that the way they deal with them is different.

 

(There are specific situations in which a wiz's fireball-lobbing capability really shines, of course, such as when there's a mob at the other edge of the map with no friendlies in danger of getting caught in the blast, but then that kind of situation doesn't present much of a tactical challenge to start with IMO. The converse is true too, of course, e.g. if the mob consists of undead.)

Edited October 3, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[Osvir]

 

...due to new fleeing engagement penalties coming with Eternity.

Do you have a link which details this?

I see this has already been resolved but I wish to go further with the topic of fleeing engagement as a Cipher.

 

I think that the Cipher is essentially THE back row killer and Anti-Mage, so disengagement would be easier if it would turn to that. When an encounter begins, the Cipher goes off to destroy Archers, Throwers, Priests, Mages, Druids etc. etc. to get Focus. And when the Cipher has enough Focus he/she can probably handle 2 or 3 enemies at once (Mind Wave and Mind Blades). But before that I think it would be unwise to send a Cipher into melee combat 1-on-1. Maybe 2-on-1, so that the Cipher gets Focus.

 

Err, before I go on with the next segment I want to reply to the "Attack of Opportunity" dealio, and that is "Mind Wave" which stuns the first enemy targeted and then (I would presume) knocks back enemies in a cone behind. Stun = Easy disengagement.

 

Some Cipher tactics speculation:

 

Outdoors Scenario (Open area):

Furthermore, having your Cipher attacking the back row will put the Cipher in a position where he/she can make more use of the Ectopsychic Echo with a Fighter or whatnot as all of the enemy melee characters will be between the Cipher and the Fighter in this situation. And when or if the Fighter is being overwhelmed and the Cipher gets enough Focus, he or she can toss a "Soul Shock" on the Fighter for support damage as well as be out of range of the AoE.

 

Indoors Scenario (Corridor):

Here's where the Cipher wouldn't be as good and become difficult to position, unless there's some empty room or whatnot where you can "set" your Cipher before engaging in a battle, and then lure the enemy melee past that room and get your Cipher to "sneak" by to deal with the back row in the corridor. Though, Mind Blades and Mind Wave seems to be a great tool to use in corridors against melee types as well, it does require the Cipher to get that Focus first.

[Gfted1]

I see this has already been resolved but I wish to go further with the topic of fleeing engagement as a Cipher.

 

I think that the Cipher is essentially THE back row killer and Anti-Mage, so disengagement would be easier if it would turn to that. When an encounter begins, the Cipher goes off to destroy Archers, Throwers, Priests, Mages, Druids etc. etc. to get Focus. And when the Cipher has enough Focus he/she can probably handle 2 or 3 enemies at once (Mind Wave and Mind Blades). But before that I think it would be unwise to send a Cipher into melee combat 1-on-1. Maybe 2-on-1, so that the Cipher gets Focus.

 

Err, before I go on with the next segment I want to reply to the "Attack of Opportunity" dealio, and that is "Mind Wave" which stuns the first enemy targeted and then (I would presume) knocks back enemies in a cone behind. Stun = Easy disengagement.

 

Some Cipher tactics speculation:

 

Outdoors Scenario (Open area):

Furthermore, having your Cipher attacking the back row will put the Cipher in a position where he/she can make more use of the Ectopsychic Echo with a Fighter or whatnot as all of the enemy melee characters will be between the Cipher and the Fighter in this situation. And when or if the Fighter is being overwhelmed and the Cipher gets enough Focus, he or she can toss a "Soul Shock" on the Fighter for support damage as well as be out of range of the AoE.

 

Indoors Scenario (Corridor):

Here's where the Cipher wouldn't be as good and become difficult to position, unless there's some empty room or whatnot where you can "set" your Cipher before engaging in a battle, and then lure the enemy melee past that room and get your Cipher to "sneak" by to deal with the back row in the corridor. Though, Mind Blades and Mind Wave seems to be a great tool to use in corridors against melee types as well, it does require the Cipher to get that Focus first.

Don't forget, you don't need to be in melee to charge focus:

 

 

Does soul whip work with ranged weapons as well? i wanna shoot some soul bullets. Maybe with a feat/talent choice perhaps?

It does.

 

 

Soul Whip (Modal) - At close range, the cipher's weapons generate fields of parasitic energy that lash out at a target's soul. The Soul Whip mode reduces the amount of damage caused, but each successful hit briefly lowers the target's Psyche defense and generates Focus for the cipher (attacks Psyche).

Hullo.

There's one thing I'm curious about.

 

The cipher needs to successfully hit (grazes don't count) his target with the weapon, overcoming Deflection first, for the Soul Whip Psyche attack to take place, right?

 

Yes, though I can't remember if Grazes count or not for Soul Whip. Grazes may only give a proportionally diminished amount of Focus.

 

[Osvir]

Correct Gfted1. Sorry, I spoke out aloud of how I want to play the Cipher

A ranged Cipher would have a different tactical deployment. Hm, would be pretty decent in corridors now that I think about it.

[rjshae]

I had something of a ghastly thought regarding this class: an evil-natured cipher may keep a stock of imprisoned victims handy from which he can readily draw energy for his Focus. He might establish a supposed "sanitarium for the insane", which he uses to power up his fiendish experiments. Each victim he cracks becomes another insane resident, maintaining the powers of the cipher as the older residents are burned through.

[Gfted1]

Correct Gfted1. Sorry, I spoke out aloud of how I want to play the Cipher

 

A ranged Cipher would have a different tactical deployment. Hm, would be pretty decent in corridors now that I think about it.

Im curious if a ranged Cipher could really work. The description of Soul Whip states "at close range" so I don't think he could actually stand at the back like a mage.

[kgambit]

I had something of a ghastly thought regarding this class: an evil-natured cipher may keep a stock of imprisoned victims handy from which he can readily draw energy for his Focus. He might establish a supposed "sanitarium for the insane", which he uses to power up his fiendish experiments. Each victim he cracks becomes another insane resident, maintaining the powers of the cipher as the older residents are burned through.

 

Ah ha, at last the true value of the prison in your stronghold is revealed!   

[Nonek]

Expanding on the above idea, if a Fighter has rendered an opponent unconscious or a Wizard has done likewise through arcane means, could the Cipher cut up the incapacitated individual to garner focus, or do they need to be conscious?

 

Might a Cipher delivering a coup de grace earn a bonus amount of focus as the soul flees the mortal coil?

 

Rather morbid turn of thought.

[forgottenlor]

@forgottenlor, yeah, you do lose out on area of effect damage spells, but you gain on area of effect buffs and de-buffs. The challenge is "how to deal with a mob." Either way will do it. In other words, I stand by my position that clerics and druids are just about as effective as wizards/sorcerers when dealing with mobs; it's just that the way they deal with them is different.

 

(There are specific situations in which a wiz's fireball-lobbing capability really shines, of course, such as when there's a mob at the other edge of the map with no friendlies in danger of getting caught in the blast, but then that kind of situation doesn't present much of a tactical challenge to start with IMO. The converse is true too, of course, e.g. if the mob consists of undead.)

You can build a party specifically around the deficiency of a wizard I suppose. You need a ranged killer to take care of wizards that stand behind a mob of creatures (plenty of ie battles run this way). You can use your mass buffs to grind through opponents and heals to take care of damage you might otherwise have avoided. However, IMO that shows what a wizard offers a party, if you have to plan around not having one. Its simply easier (and less challenging) to include a wizard (or sorcerer). That is personally why I like the idea of another class offering something of a good alternative. I have no problem with being able to build a combat oriented druid or cleric, but I'd also like to see the option to build one like the traditional mage, so that you have low combat power, but that you can sit back and concentrate on casting.

[Solviulnir the Soulbinder]

While we're at it.
Will there be any incentive for the Ciphers to target any specific kind/type of enemies. I'm thinking about maybe characters whose souls or minds are more hmm susceptible to be breached with the Whip ability. Weak minded or those of little faith(?).

There could be a variety of benefits, like for example considerably higher chance to inflict psi damage/ailment or significantly faster rate of Focus accumulation as compared to Mind Whip attacking someone with a "strong" soul, like a Priest or a Paladin... I'm not really sure how to identify strong/weak souls though :D

BTW. Very nice location artwork - I take it that it's from before it was enchanced with _the_awesome_hand_drawn_detail_overlay_layer? 

Cheers

[Osvir]

I had something of a ghastly thought regarding this class: an evil-natured cipher may keep a stock of imprisoned victims handy from which he can readily draw energy for his Focus. He might establish a supposed "sanitarium for the insane", which he uses to power up his fiendish experiments. Each victim he cracks becomes another insane resident, maintaining the powers of the cipher as the older residents are burned through.

This is dependent on how the Focus resource is handled, but I think this is a great idea from a gameplay mechanical perspective (and story/lore stuff too, even if gruesome).

 

Specifically for this example: Scenario 3 which I talked about earlier: Your Focus goes down to 0 after every fight, but, if you keep some prisoners in your Stronghold you could use them for a Companion Cipher to "up" that Focus after every fight or for your main character. Or for other uses. Choices~ and consequences ofc.

 

"Either I use this for my Cipher, or for a companion Cipher, or I use them as hostages, or for information, or to converse them to my cause" etc. etc. pick 1 (or 2 in some circumstance).

 

Obviously, using prisoners for Focus for a Companion Character should (or could) "turn" them or their personality/goals. I know we've discussed the topic of "turning good Companions evil" or "turning evil Companions good". This Prisoner thing sounds like one method throughout the game. There's also the question of "Would the Cipher Companion, if good aligned, even do this to begin with... or would we have to force/sway/persuade them to do it?".

[Gfted1]

While we're at it.

Will there be any incentive for the Ciphers to target any specific kind/type of enemies.

Isnt the fighters inherent weakness Psyche defense?

[rjshae]

In battles against enemies too powerful or resistant to be harmed by the soul whip, cipher is either unable to use advanced techniques (or even repeatedly use minor powers), or is perhaps left with the option of attacking allies to gather the necessary Focus?

 

How about:

• Soul Shield - the cipher surrounds his form with a field of parasitic energy. Whenever he is struck by a melee weapon, the field wraps itself around the weapon, drawing Focus from the soul of the attacker.

It's a bit monk-like in that it would allow you to generate Focus by being struck, so some might find that objectionable. But it would be a means to regenerate Focus against a powerful opponent (assuming you survive).

[Nonek]

Symbiosis with Monk? Wound him to generate focus and power his melee abilities?

[Valorian]

Something pertaining to, among other things, Soul Whip.

Posted by Josh on SA:

"Pretty much all of the status effects that are applied per-hit have scaling impact based on the base speed of the weapon."

 

Why? 

I can see the logic behind adding bonus damage through percentages (of base damage), even though I don't like it because it's the path of least resistance. Yes, it's certainly easier to balance when working with percentages.

It also has some sense behind it, to an extent.. you smash harder.. you deal more bonus (e.g. fire) damage.

 

But I don't see why would attacking faster reduce the duration or power of an on-hit effect.

Why would a dagger-person, who deals more per-hit damage than a greatsword-person and attacks faster (because the dagger-person has trained to become special that way), apply a shorter/less powerful effect?

 

 

***

 

Also, if you end up using 'graze on deflection --> special effect attack still triggers' (pls no  ) in some situations, I have a little suggestion.

 

The graze on deflection could downscale the result of the effect attack by 2 levels. I.e., a critical hit for the effect becomes a graze (crit -> normal -> graze; normal -> graze -> miss). Meaning, after grazing an opponent (Deflection), the effect attack (Fort, Psyche) needs to be exceptionally powerful to be able to penetrate, and even then, it can only be a graze.

 

 

[PrimeJunta]

You can build a party specifically around the deficiency of a wizard I suppose. You need a ranged killer to take care of wizards that stand behind a mob of creatures (plenty of ie battles run this way). You can use your mass buffs to grind through opponents and heals to take care of damage you might otherwise have avoided. However, IMO that shows what a wizard offers a party, if you have to plan around not having one. Its simply easier (and less challenging) to include a wizard (or sorcerer). That is personally why I like the idea of another class offering something of a good alternative. I have no problem with being able to build a combat oriented druid or cleric, but I'd also like to see the option to build one like the traditional mage, so that you have low combat power, but that you can sit back and concentrate on casting.

That's a matter of point of view, you know. If you're used to having a wizard, then not having one will be perceived as a lack, of course. However, if you just look at the tactical challenges themselves, on their own merits, I'm pretty sure you'll find that having two divine spellcasters instead of one wizard and one divine spellcaster will have the advantage most of the time.

 

Clerics and druids have lots of options for your mage suppression scenario, for example. Stuff like Silence and Hold Person (CLR 2) to take them out of the game straight out, single-target or small-area damage spells like Searing Light, Creeping Cold, Dehydrate, Flame Strike, and Swamp Lung, and area suppression spells that'll, among other things, bork spellcasting, like Spike Growth.

 

Bottom line is I usually don't bother with arcane casters when I play D&D 3 based cRPG's these days. Divine ones are just so much more versatile.

[Prometheus]

While we're at it.

Will there be any incentive for the Ciphers to target any specific kind/type of enemies. I'm thinking about maybe characters whose souls or minds are more hmm susceptible to be breached with the Whip ability. Weak minded or those of little faith(?).

I think,it's the best to attack enemies with low Psyche with soul whip to gain a large amount of focus (and low DT if you want to make damage against the target). The powers seem to target different defenses and damage types. So you can attack high psyche enemies with powers, that target their weakest defenses and damage types.

 

 

Isnt the fighters inherent weakness Psyche defense?

 

Fighter starts with a Psyche value of 10, but they have the same Reflexes value and the rogue has only a Psyche value of 5. Fighters will also likely have a high DT, so you will make little damage if you attack them with soul whip. for all known starting defenses see here.

[Lephys]

Something pertaining to, among other things, Soul Whip.

 

Posted by Josh on SA:

 

"Pretty much all of the status effects that are applied per-hit have scaling impact based on the base speed of the weapon."

 

Why? 

I can see the logic behind adding bonus damage through percentages (of base damage), even though I don't like it because it's the path of least resistance. Yes, it's certainly easier to balance when working with percentages.

It also has some sense behind it, to an extent.. you smash harder.. you deal more bonus (e.g. fire) damage.

 

But I don't see why would attacking faster reduce the duration or power of an on-hit effect.

Why would a dagger-person, who deals more per-hit damage than a greatsword-person and attacks faster (because the dagger-person has trained to become special that way), apply a shorter/less powerful effect?

 

Well... I don't know exactly how all of this is supposed to work, but, I'd honestly like to see a lot of on-hit effects be a completely separate thing from the weapon's physical strike damage. Shock, for example. Even if you graze someone, I'm pretty sure the lightning effect can conduct itself into the target just as well as it could if you had stabbed them through the torso. Also, it would probably target the same defense a spell would, instead of Deflection (like the physical force of the weapon). This way, sometimes your weapon would be effective against an enemy, but its extra effects would have more trouble (you could get a crit with your sword and only a graze with the effect... or maybe the physical hit would influence the effect, so that a crit might mean you can't get worse than a hit with the effect, *shrug*), and vice versa.

 

Soul Whip could even work like this, so that your hammer of justice might do 7,000 damage (foe has low Deflection and DT), but your Soul Whip only drains like 5 Focus because of the foe's high Psyche. Inversely, you could do crap damage to an opponent, but drain a lot of Focus.

 

Instead of every single time you run into a heavily armored opponent resulting in your being crippled in TWO ways (damage AND Focus), you'd only be crippled in one. Unless, of course, the foe had high Deflection/DT AND high Psyche, which is another possible combo. So, if you couldn't do very good damage to something, but you needed Focus, you could opt to draw Focus from that foe at the cost of very inefficient damage dealing (those strikes against a different enemy would've dealt good damage AND given you good Focus, but maybe other enemies are far away at the moment). I'm much more a fan of these types of obstacles, than the "Oh well, this target isn't even a viable target for ANYTHING you're trying to do with this character, at all!" ones.

 

IF that were the case, then basing the effects on speed would make a lot of sense. You can hit someone 73 times in 3 seconds with this dagger? Well, then it's probably not going to deliver 20 lightning damage per strike. You can only hit them once every three seconds with this big heavy maul? Okay, you're probably going to get more lightning damage out of that per go.

 

However, if the effects are linked to damage (Graze with sword = 50% lessened effect, etc.), then yeah... not seeing the reasoning for the Speed basis. Which, I'm pretty sure it was at least briefly mentioned that the effects of spells and abilities would work on the miss-graze-hit-crit system, but I don't know that this was confirmed for weapon effects or not.

 

Info would be splendtastic.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Lephys

[Valorian]

 

Something pertaining to, among other things, Soul Whip.

 

Posted by Josh on SA:

 

"Pretty much all of the status effects that are applied per-hit have scaling impact based on the base speed of the weapon."

 

Why? 

I can see the logic behind adding bonus damage through percentages (of base damage), even though I don't like it because it's the path of least resistance. Yes, it's certainly easier to balance when working with percentages.

It also has some sense behind it, to an extent.. you smash harder.. you deal more bonus (e.g. fire) damage.

 

But I don't see why would attacking faster reduce the duration or power of an on-hit effect.

Why would a dagger-person, who deals more per-hit damage than a greatsword-person and attacks faster (because the dagger-person has trained to become special that way), apply a shorter/less powerful effect?

 

Shock, for example.

 

 

This is not about elemental bonus damage.

[Lephys]

 

Shock, for example.

 

This is not about elemental bonus damage.

 

Bonus elemental damage just so happens to be an "on-hit effect," as it could have both duration and power. Which is why I used it as an example. Sure, it would've been crazy of me to limit this to ONLY elemental bonus damage. Luckily, I didn't do that.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Lephys

[Valorian]

 

 

Shock, for example.

 

This is not about elemental bonus damage.

 

Bonus elemental damage just so happens to be an "on-hit effect," as it could have both duration and power. Which is why I used it as an example. Sure, it would've been crazy of me to limit this to ONLY elemental bonus damage. Luckily, I didn't do that.

 

 

It's just bonus damage, different from the base damage type. The main dissimilarity being, you get to make a defense check against an on-hit effect (such as stun), but there isn't a defense check against bonus damage (such as shock), which is simply reduced by DT.

 

 

 

IF that were the case, then basing the effects on speed would make a lot of sense. You can hit someone 73 times in 3 seconds with this dagger? Well, then it's probably not going to deliver 20 lightning damage per strike. You can only hit them once every three seconds with this big heavy maul? Okay, you're probably going to get more lightning damage out of that per go.

 

 

 

Also, could you stop with ridiculous, over the top, examples?

 

But what if my character attacks faster than the speed of light!? Shock damage wouldn't be fast enough!!

 

There's no reason to deal less shock damage, just because attacking faster.

We can test it on you, if you wish. Buy a Taser and, as the first part of the experiment, shock yourself twice in a minute for 2 seconds. Then, in the part 2 of the experiment, shock yourself with it 30 times in a minute for 1 second.

When is more damage dealt and why?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I do think that giving Ciphers an ability to replenish their resource without resting is good, but I wonder if there are other ways in addition to Soul Whip to do so? Perhaps an ability to drain excess off allies, slowly regenerate focus, or a drain attack that gives a large bonus to Focus?

 

Also, will one of the companions be a Cipher?

[Lephys]

It's just bonus damage, different from the base damage type. The main dissimilarity being, you get to make a defense check against an on-hit effect (such as stun), but there isn't a defense check against bonus damage (such as shock), which is simply reduced by DT.

I remembered something being said about that, but couldn't remember the specifics or where it was, so thanks for the actually reasonable, informative response. I just meant that "you get hit with a sword, and when you get hit, you also get shocked" is technically an additional, "on-hit effect." But P:E's considering an on-hit "effect" and on-hit elemental damage to be 2 different things. Got it.

 

Also, could you stop with ridiculous, over the top, examples?

I really think you misunderstand the reason I make examples like that. If I use 3 seconds and 5 damage versus 4 seconds and 7 damage, I ALWAYS get puzzling responses about the specific numbers, because there's so little difference in them. People think I'm saying "this is really how much time I think should go with this much damage, because these are so specific of numbers." So, I usually just go with "obviously a really high number" and more damage, versus "obviously a really low number," in an effort to point out that it's the relative difference I'm worried about, and not the specific values of the numbers.

 

So, sorry about that if it causes confusion. But, I didn't want you to think I was just trying to be over the top for no reason at all. That's just what I do, because of my experience trying to use realistic, subtle differences in my examples leading to confusion.

 

There's no reason to deal less shock damage, just because attacking faster.

We can test it on you, if you wish. Buy a Taser and, as the first part of the experiment, shock yourself twice in a minute for 2 seconds. Then, in the part 2 of the experiment, shock yourself with it 30 times in a minute for 1 second.

When is more damage dealt and why?

There is a reason, but it's not what you're thinking. I'm in agreement that there's no reason for an actual dagger that magically delivered lightning jolts with every attack to deal less damage than some other bigger, heavier, harder-hitting weapon. But, once you're in gameplay, you've got weapon styles and balancing to deal with. If you give someone a dagger that does 100 lightning damage every hit, or a 2-handed maul that does 100 lightning damage every hit, they're going to use the dagger. Why? Because you can get so many more hits in with the dagger than you can with the maul. The maul will be quantifiably worse (overall) than the dagger. Sure, against certain enemies, the maul would be better. But, to anythings susceptible to lightning? It'd be no contest. "Do I want to deal 100 guaranteed damage every second, or every 4 seconds?"

 

So, yeah, in gameplay, there's a reason for scaling such things to weapon speed. That's all I was getting at. That's why so many games have daggers that do 7 damage and swords and hammers that do 20. Of course, a lot of the time, that's overly primitive DPS balancing, but... still. I'm just pointing out why they do it, not commending them for their work.

[mcmanusaur]

Although I can see how this would appeal to many players... my thoughts: "On second thought, let us not play a cipher; tis a silly class..." To me the abilities listed just sound like sorta standard magical fare- with "mind" or "soul" tacked on to the name of course- very gamey and not particularly profound. As such, I'll probably end up sticking with a utility class, or maybe trying a chanter.

Edited October 4, 2013 by mcmanusaur