"Stealth" or "Guerilla Warfare"

[Chrononaut]

So, I'm curious, is there any indication which direction stealth in PE is going to take. I would be a tad disappointed if it essentially becomes "guerilla warfare", ie it works like an activated "cloaking" ability that allows repositioning of character/s before a fight for an advantage, and/or ambushing with backstab attack.

 

That isn't a bad idea, it is, but it isn't really stealth, it's more like "guerilla warfare". Do you guys think PE should allow for the possibility of bypassing combat encounters entirely, providing alternate solutions to combat? Obviously PE is going to be combat-centric, but I don't think combat encounters should literally "block" the adjacent map until the enemies are killed.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Chrononaut

[mstark]

Known Info, answered by Josh Sawyer:

 

 

Q: I believe you said sneaking will be a little more involved than select skill -> chart a course with mouse-clicking; can you tell how you plan to make stealth (more) involving mechanics-wise? What kinds of feedback will the player receive while sneaking? Do enemies have multiple alert levels? If you alert an enemy, is the whole room/area alerted, or is it a viable tactic to pick off one by one (or at least in small groups)? Does stealth have any application outside of combat zones, scripted or otherwise?

 

A: Right now our basic implementation is more involved than what was in the Infinity Engine games. Party members have a radius around them (based on their individual Stealth skills) that represents the range at which a creature's perception radius can notice them. This radius can grow larger based on the character's actions, so if you're sneaking around and you start casting a spell, it will bump up considerably.

 

Creatures do have two detection states (other than not detecting anything): investigation and alert. If you just "bump" the edge of a creature's detection radius, it will typically move to investigate. If it gets close enough, it will switch over to an alert state. If the creature is already hostile toward the party, it will attack and "call for help" (to use an Infinity Engine term), potentially alerting its nearby allies.

Based on this, I believe stealth will be used mostly for positioning, especially since all classes have limited access to the skill. However, if you're a stealth based rouge, you may be able to sneak through entire dungeons in stealth mode, avoiding all combat, resulting in you bypassing combat to reach the loot/objective at the end.

 

I also imagine it'd be possible to sneak one of your characters to the far end of a room, trigger the "investigation" state of nearby enemies, which will make them start moving around. Once that happens, maybe you can take your entire party and sneak by without being noticed, or get into a better position before the fighting starts.

Edited August 13, 2013 by mstark

[Lysen]

You could bypass some (but not all) combat encounters in Icewind Dale 2, probably it will be possible in PE as well. However, I am much more interested in applications of stealth outside combat, like stealing, looting houses, eavesdropping etc. One of my fondest memories of Baldur's Gate is looting every house in ... well, in Baldur's Gate))) It was so satisfying.

[J. Trudel]

The problem with encounter avoidance is that you can get a major experience deficit. While it may not be game breaking, it usually means you'll have very limited fighting capabilities (as well as sneak skills) later in the game,. I remember trying to avoid all combats in Baldur's Gate, while it was mostly possible, fighting Sarevok around level 3 was impossible unless you used much cheeze. By chance I had a few wands of summoning monsters

[rjshae]

The problem with encounter avoidance is that you can get a major experience deficit. While it may not be game breaking, it usually means you'll have very limited fighting capabilities (as well as sneak skills) later in the game,. I remember trying to avoid all combats in Baldur's Gate, while it was mostly possible, fighting Sarevok around level 3 was impossible unless you used much cheeze. By chance I had a few wands of summoning monsters

 

From what I've heard, they're going to be rewarding little or no XP for grinding in this game. Most of the XP will come from accomplishing objectives. (But you may miss out on some good loot by avoiding combat.)

[Chrononaut]

I don't believe PE is going to have any xp points for killing monsters, it'll all be from quests. I might be wrong though.

[J. Trudel]

 

The problem with encounter avoidance is that you can get a major experience deficit. While it may not be game breaking, it usually means you'll have very limited fighting capabilities (as well as sneak skills) later in the game,. I remember trying to avoid all combats in Baldur's Gate, while it was mostly possible, fighting Sarevok around level 3 was impossible unless you used much cheeze. By chance I had a few wands of summoning monsters

 

From what I've heard, they're going to be rewarding little or no XP for grinding in this game. Most of the XP will come from accomplishing objectives. (But you may miss out on some good loot by avoiding combat.)

 

 

This makes my day ! I don't know why it hasn't been done before, I'm in favor from 100 % xp from quest only !

[anubite]

I'd say it's still in flux at this point, but the intention is to give the most experience for just doing the quests.

 

The main problem with stealth in IE games is your whole party usually cannot stealth, so... even if you could bypass content and get experience, this means a single party member must do all the work. If a given quest is "kill this person" or "get this item that is guarded by horrible monsters" (where getting the item breaks your stealth or is held by a monster), that kind of solution just doesn't work.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I can't guarantee that you'll be able to "ghost" areas in PE, but if you build a party with the Stealth skill as a focus, you may be able to circumvent a lot of encounters if you so choose.  If you dabble in Stealth, you will probably wind up using it more for combat positioning.

 

While rogues do have a bonus to Stealth, so do several other classes, and no class has an inherent penalty to sneaking.  It will be quite possible for you to keep your entire party close in overall Stealth values if you choose to focus on that skill.

[Morgulon the Wise]

I'd really like to be able to cast an "orb of shadows" to take out a single foe. The idea is to clad an area in shadows, giving me time to position my entire group around him. The foe will either be alerted and flee or keep standing still on his spot dazzled. Then my men and women will strike unseen and unheard. If he survives it, the foe will want to fllee again but maybe he keeps engaged. If he can flee the illusion will break which exposes my entire group.

 

I could also just pickpocket him to get the stuff I want...

[AGX-17]

So, I'm curious, is there any indication which direction stealth in PE is going to take. I would be a tad disappointed if it essentially becomes "guerilla warfare", ie it works like an activated "cloaking" ability that allows repositioning of character/s before a fight for an advantage, and/or ambushing with backstab attack.

 

That isn't a bad idea, it is, but it isn't really stealth, it's more like "guerilla warfare". Do you guys think PE should allow for the possibility of bypassing combat encounters entirely, providing alternate solutions to combat? Obviously PE is going to be combat-centric, but I don't think combat encounters should literally "block" the adjacent map until the enemies are killed.

Guerilla warfare is wildly outside the combat concepts of this type of game. Stealthy combat =/= guerilla warfare. Firstly, a guerilla group operates within a limited territory, with their sole/primary interests lying within that territory. The player is not going to just spend the entire game camped out in one location attacking passersby on the nearest road. By your line of reasoning, any form of combat outside of wearing flashy bright colors and charging headlong into an army would count as guerilla warfare. This is, of course, ignoring the fact that a party of, what, 9 characters does not constitute an army. A fight with bandits would not be defined as a war by pretty much anyone.

Edited August 13, 2013 by AGX-17

[Nonek]

Wonder if the more cunning adventurer could utilise spells and such to silence enemy guards and patrols, say a Cipher steals the words from their mind or a Wizard snatches the air from their lungs? Rather nice accompaniment for stealthy diversions I should think, give it some bombastic shakespearian title such as: "Be still thy vicious tongue."

[Gfted1]

Sounds like fun. The mental image of my plate clad paladin sneaking as well as my rogue makes me lol. Bonus points for a tippy toe animation.

[Lephys]

Sounds like fun. The mental image of my plate clad paladin sneaking as well as my rogue makes me lol. Bonus points for a tippy toe animation.

Josh said a character's detection radius will be affected by a character's actions. It wouldn't be too crazy to think that "wearing full plate" might be one of those actions. Or, to put it another way, "by a character's actions" might not cover all possible factors that affect the detection radius.

 

Also, your Rogue will have an inherent bonus to sneaking, while your Paladin, most likely, will not. So, if you voluntarily beef up your plate-clad Paladin's sneaking skill, while leaving your Rogue's slightly unbeefed, then I guess you'll have the recipe for lulz at your disposal.

[Gfted1]

*nods*

 

Yep, I think I remember seeing all of that but thanks for the recap anyway.

[Lephys]

*tips hat*, Anytime.

[rjshae]

 

Sounds like fun. The mental image of my plate clad paladin sneaking as well as my rogue makes me lol. Bonus points for a tippy toe animation.

Josh said a character's detection radius will be affected by a character's actions. It wouldn't be too crazy to think that "wearing full plate" might be one of those actions. Or, to put it another way, "by a character's actions" might not cover all possible factors that affect the detection radius.

 

Also, your Rogue will have an inherent bonus to sneaking, while your Paladin, most likely, will not. So, if you voluntarily beef up your plate-clad Paladin's sneaking skill, while leaving your Rogue's slightly unbeefed, then I guess you'll have the recipe for lulz at your disposal.

 

Perhaps some classes (Chanter? Ranger?) will have soul-based powers that temporarily allow improved sneakiness while lugging noisy gear? Like an "aura of muffling"; a milder form of a silence spell...

[mstark]

The weakness of the proposed system is that it sounds like the detection radius will be entirely based on the character doing the sneaking, say 20 yards while standing still, and 40 yards while running in full plate. This makes it sound like the perception of any antagonist plays no role, meaning that all enemies, be it an over sized bat or a half blind pig, will have the same ability to detect you.

 

Unless the character stealth+action sets a "base" detection range, which can then be modified by the antagonists detection capabilities.

Edited August 14, 2013 by mstark

[Gfted1]

^I would be shocked to see a stealth system that calculates on the fly each individual monsters detection vs each party member, but I guess its not out of the realm of possibility.

 

Sawyer states in plain English:

While rogues do have a bonus to Stealth, so do several other classes, and no class has an inherent penalty to sneaking. It will be quite possible for you to keep your entire party close in overall Stealth values if you choose to focus on that skill.

So I think we can just take that at face value.

[Kjaamor]

From what I've heard, they're going to be rewarding little or no XP for grinding in this game. Most of the XP will come from accomplishing objectives. (But you may miss out on some good loot by avoiding combat.)

This makes my day ! I don't know why it hasn't been done before, I'm in favor from 100 % xp from quest only !

 

It was done in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. If you haven't played that, I would heartily recommend that you do. Even though it's an action-rpg (featuring both fps and tpf combat), which I generally have less time for, it is probably one of the greatest rpgs ever made.

[J.E. Sawyer]

The weakness of the proposed system is that it sounds like the detection radius will be entirely based on the character doing the sneaking, say 20 yards while standing still, and 40 yards while running in full plate. This makes it sound like the perception of any antagonist plays no role, meaning that all enemies, be it an over sized bat or a half blind pig, will have the same ability to detect you.

 

This is incorrect.  Creatures have their own individual detection radii.

[mstark]

Thanks for clearing that up!

[mstark]

(re-reading your original post on RPGCODEX I now realize that's exactly what it says! English not being my native language sometimes gets me confused :/ )

 

Is noise and vision detection two separate mechanics?

[Keyser Soeze]

First post

 

Stealth is always an interesting and complex subject in RPGs and other genres also for that matter.

 

Its nice to be able to sneak past guards to maybe open a sidedoor for so you can avoid combat etc, but this should only be a small part of the stealth imo.

 

I really like when you can focus a charachter around stealth so you can use stealth in a tactical manner before and during combat.

 

So i wounder what "skills" there will be that are connected to stealth in this game.

 

-Backstab (~x10dmg)

-Silent kills
-Hidden bow/ranged attack

-Setting traps

-Removing/darken light sources

-?

-?

 

Just some that i can think of on top of my head.
 

 

Also while on stealth i wonder how you can make it harder and more interesting to steal stuff in random houses.

 

In most rpgs its way to easy just to walk into a random house and steal stuff as long as you can pick the locks. It seems it rarely matter if you are spotted or not.

 

I would love some mechanic that makes a small pussle out of this kind of thing with LOS of the NPCs in the house beeing the main focus to avoid. This might need a "distract" skill or something to work well, also maybe places your character can hide in in different rooms. Im thinking in lines with the last Commandos behind enemy lines game, it had all of this.

It might be hard to get all this stuff in but for me and im sure many others, burglary is a big part of the game, so it should not be overlooked or underestimated as it have been in most predecessors.

 

Keep up the good work!

Keyser

[Lephys]

This is incorrect.  Creatures have their own individual detection radii.

Yeah, to make sure I have this right in my mind:

 

If you have a Rogue with a Stealth of over 9,000, maybe he has a 10ft ehh... detection radius, we'll call it. But, enemies have a perception radius (just as your character has in regard to things trying to hide from him). So, it's still easier for him to sneak past a drowsy Human with a perception radius of 5 ft than it is to sneak past an alert Skuldr with a perception radius of 50 ft.

 

Whereas, even though the drowsy guard's detection radius is only 5 ft, it might be really tough for your unstealthy, plate-clad Fighter to sneak past him if said Fighter has a perception radius of 30 ft, since he's got to stay THAT much farther away from even the guard's tiny perception bubble.

 

Also, since your detection extends out in a radius around you, I'd wager that sound's incorporated into that. Of course, I do hope that things that affect sight and sound can modify the radii, be it lighting, armor material, floor material (grass quieter than cobblestone), etc. I only say that because, technically, all that was mentioned was "based on the character's actions." Though I realize that that was just an example of the fact that it could be affected, and not necessarily a list of all the things that can affect your base detection radius as calculated straight from your Stealth skill.