Mechanic Revision - Pickpocketing

[Fearabbit]

see you made the conclusion that reaching into fire = getting burnt.  which isn't necessarily the case, if done right you can reach into fire just fine without getting burnt, which is why it is a good example. 

 

Has the world gone mad? No, reaching into a fire is not an adequate comparison to implementing a fun mechanic that many people enjoy into an RPG.

And that's like, the whole point. If it's as if you're putting your hand into a fire, then you're already strongly biased against pickpocketing. It's not like pickpocketing needs this one special feature that makes it not horrible (i.e. the wet cloth around your hand). For me it's the other way around, pickpocketing is already a good feature, but right now it has an unnecessary aspect to it that makes it not much fun.

So it's more like trying to light a nice candle by using a match with a hand soaked in flammable oil.

 

Also I vehemently disagree that every proposed solution is heavy on resources. That is simply a false statement, in fact most systems here are so easy that they could be scripted in one afternoon, I reckon. Not to mention that some of them would probably involve less calculations than what's been done in the IE games before (the "always succeed if skill is high enough" system doesn't even need a roll, for example).

 

And please, don't forget that this is supposed to be an RPG. Obviously everyone has preferences when playing the game, but that does not mean that your Lawful Good is the way that most people take or the one that should be catered to the most. A good crime system is crucial to a believable world, whether you make use of it or not.

[Lephys]

Well said, Fearabbit. I couldn't have said it better (even though I tried, but failed miserably).

 

Basically, my take is that pickpocketing is very much implemented in games as a good thing packaged with a bad thing. Like a birthday cake with shards of glass in it. If you take out the shards of glass, you still have cake, and it's delicious and doesn't prevent you from enjoying it. And shards of glass aren't necessary to have cake, just as many of the things that are in pickpocketing systems aren't inherent to the sheer idea of pickpocketing.

 

Obviously people are allowed to find pickpocketing not super exciting. However, it's very hard to eat the shards-o-glass cake and say, with confidence, "No, it's definitely a problem with the cake recipe, even without the shards."

[jamoecw]

 

see you made the conclusion that reaching into fire = getting burnt.  which isn't necessarily the case, if done right you can reach into fire just fine without getting burnt, which is why it is a good example. 

 

Has the world gone mad? No, reaching into a fire is not an adequate comparison to implementing a fun mechanic that many people enjoy into an RPG.

And that's like, the whole point. If it's as if you're putting your hand into a fire, then you're already strongly biased against pickpocketing. It's not like pickpocketing needs this one special feature that makes it not horrible (i.e. the wet cloth around your hand). For me it's the other way around, pickpocketing is already a good feature, but right now it has an unnecessary aspect to it that makes it not much fun.

So it's more like trying to light a nice candle by using a match with a hand soaked in flammable oil.

 

Also I vehemently disagree that every proposed solution is heavy on resources. That is simply a false statement, in fact most systems here are so easy that they could be scripted in one afternoon, I reckon. Not to mention that some of them would probably involve less calculations than what's been done in the IE games before (the "always succeed if skill is high enough" system doesn't even need a roll, for example).

 

And please, don't forget that this is supposed to be an RPG. Obviously everyone has preferences when playing the game, but that does not mean that your Lawful Good is the way that most people take or the one that should be catered to the most. A good crime system is crucial to a believable world, whether you make use of it or not.

 

as for dev resources, keep in mind that the existing system is a simple skill check system, that gives access to existing inventories.  and that system has to undergo testing and balancing which means that with almost nothing to the system you have days of dev resources invested.  now take into consideration that 3 out 4 independently proposed systems that were posted before his first post require custom content for each mark and you end up with tons of dev resources spent on something that typically has almost no resources spent normally.

 

the reaching into fire thing i think is a good analogy due to the fact that back in greek and roman times it was considered a feat for a hero the snatch something from the fire, either by skill or toughness, which by today's standards is considered silly and foolhardy.  he sees the attempt at pickpocketing in the game as not worth much based on previous experience, he is ambivalent towards the chances of success for improving it, and hasn't looked into any of the suggestions posted.  lephys kept trying to make comparisons that involved a flaw in logic, or an outright denial in the chances of success, which are both untrue, all that is asked ultimately is that any suggestions are kept to use the same dev resources used currently:

 

if (skill:pickpocket > x) then (set 'attempt' = rnd (1-20) + skill:pickpocket) else (target hostile)

if ('attempt' > x) then (target inventoryscreen) else (target hostile)

clear 'attempt'

 

which is what 6-7 lines of code and a button and a cursor?

[Osvir]

Might've already been said before but... just because you steal something do you have to get the whole Guard house sent after you? They really have nothing better to do?

Jokes aside, I would like to dive deeper into the aspect of getting caught:
- Parley. Come to a sort of compromise.
- Got good reputation with the guards? "I'm the thief? He's the thief!" (of course, you should only be able to do so once or twice until the Guards start to suspect you are playing them for fools)
- Reputation playing a part in how "whatever-form-of-guard" catches you.
- Culture. In some cultures there won't be any guards (either because they aren't, frankly, nearby or because they are corrupt) and the person you're stealing from might turn around and start hitting you instead. Self-Defense. Doesn't mean that the entire village needs to go mad, but more of an "Eye for an Eye!" mentality and a feud to settle between 2 individuals (the Player/Thief and the Target/Victim). They could hit hard too if they have any weapons on them~
- Pickpocketing is an art of sleight of hand, you won't have time to pause the game and go through their inventories, panties and hearts. You should only be able to steal some coin and/or some hand-held weaponry (a sword hanging on a hilt, a gun, dagger etc. etc). Stealing a piece of Chest Armor isn't something you pickpocket, it's something you rob from their houses.

Robbery and Pickpocketing is not the same.

[Robbery] could be an interesting mechanic though I realize, practically go up to some dude, wave your sword, gun, wand, or whatever at the guy's face and threaten him "Take off your armor.. now!".

[Robbery] = Threaten+Pickpocketing Build?

/Brainstorm End

Edited September 2, 2013 by Osvir

[Xienzi]

I personally would like it if the mechanic would be, say, you're in a town and you have a thief. You could take control of that character and go on heists using nothing but the environment(torches, lanterns, trees) and whatever tools you brought with you in your kit. So potentially you could get through a nobleman's mansion using stunguns, grappling hooks, lockpicks, and other things to get to the real treasure.

 

...But then you have to consider how many of these you can implement and whether or not it's worth the time and effort.

[JFSOCC]

If it's engaging, I'll want to do it and it will be worth the time and effort.

[Infiltrator_SF]

A guy who is making an indie game, underrail (an awesome game still in the making like PE) recently added a change in pickpocketing that made sense and disabled the usual "try and reload until successful" strategy.

 

I'll quote him from his blog regarding the mechanic:

 

 

First of all I revamped the pickpocketing mechanics as I promised. The way it works now is that when you are stealing items from an NPC you are filling up their permanent "suspicion meter". If you fill up this meter to the max you will be detected and the combat will ensue. The game will indicate how much stealing a certain item will raise the suspicion meter.

The rate at which you fill this meter will depend on the ratio between your pickpocketing skill and the victim's detection. Since the detection scales off of character's level and perception, this basically means that you'll have to continue investing points in the pickpocketing skill (and ideally dexterity as well) in order to be able to steal (or steal more) from progressively higher level NPCs. Also, some items are harder to steal than others (e.g. heavy weapons and armors in comparison to smaller stuff like ammo and hypos).

The way this system is set up it means that, unlike lockpicking and hacking, the outcome is not binary. Depending on your skill-to-detection ration and the difficulty modifier of the item, you may be able to steal zero, one or more items from a given target. So investing more skill into pickpocketing will always be useful. Because there's no dice involved in the calculations, this will also eliminate the need for save scumming.

 

 

[Michael_Galt]

Have there been any updates on the pickpocketing mechanic?  I am highly interested in this, and do not recall having read anything about it recently. 

[Night Stalker]

Last I recall hearing about it, Sawyer said that it would only happen through dialogue skill/attribute checks.

 

Since Sawyer is a fan of deterministic dialogue skill checks (I think he calls them "hard"), so there will most likely be no randomness in it, so reloading won't matter.

[Michael_Galt]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what that means.  Does that mean that I will only be able to pickpocket someone if I initiate conversation with them?

[Night Stalker]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what that means.  Does that mean that I will only be able to pickpocket someone if I initiate conversation with them?

 

AFAIR In Torment, BG, BG2 (and possibly IWD and IWD2) there is a thief/rogue icon in the GUI that you click on and then click on a person whoose pocket you wish to pick.

 

I found the quote from J. E. Sawyer (posted in the Something Awful PoE thread on Jul 2, 2014):

 

 

Pickpocketing isn't a skill, but is something that rarely comes up in dialogues via Dexterity checks. It just didn't have enough uses/compelling gameplay in the IE games to warrant an entire skill.

 

Mechanics does encompass both picking locks and handling/disarming traps.

 

So there you go.

[Lephys]

Sounds like it'll probably only come up as a check when items of some significance are involved. Not just "Does that guy have something worth more than 0 monies in his pocket? I can try to pickpocket it! 8D!"

 

I approve, but at the same time, I hope "rarely" doesn't mean like... 3 instances in the entire game.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Lephys

[Michael_Galt]

I do not approve- this truly makes me a sad panda, if that is the case.  I don't care if they don't want to put in romances- fine.  I understand their reasons for that, though I personally like romances (though, not stupid and shallow ones, but those are part of life as well, so really don't mind them either).  I don't feel any of the romances in BG 2 were bad- to the contrary, to me, they were very well thought out and made lots of sense.  But, I do not understand why it is that they would "nerf" an incredibly important skill of a thief.  I see literally no good reason for that. Especially as they had that mechanic in F: NV, and it worked quite well- meaning, they know how to do it.  I have loved pretty much everything I have seen about the game so far, but if pick-pocketing is practically useless, I will be pretty disappointed.  I've always had it as part of my gameplay in Arcanum, BG 2, the Fallouts, etc.  Almost all the games I have not liked, have had weak pick-pocketing mechanics, which contributed to me feeling unsatisfied with the game in general (because it seems like a relatively simple thing to do). I'm not saying, "OMG, I'm going to hate the game!", just that it would significantly damper my enthusiasm for it.

[Lephys]

I share your sentiments about pickpocketing being practically useless. However, the knowledge we have of it being vaguely "rare" and not just a usable-whereever-you-will skill does not necessarily confirm that it will be useless. It might be very useful. Just less sandboxy, perhaps.

 

We'll have to see, I guess.

[Silent Winter]

I'd also prefer the 'try and pickpocket whomever' type from IE games.

Being told 'pick his pocket' in a dialogue is kind of 'meh' - it screams 'THIS ONE has something worth picking'

Won't spoil my game, just seems like an odd decision.

[Lephys]

It does seem a bit odd, and it is nice to be able to just attempt on anyone. However, with PoE's "checks outside of combat aren't rolls" system, it'd be a little weird. "Try this guy... nope, I failed 'cause my Dex isn't high enough." OR, "I have max Dex... I pick EVERYONE'S pockets successfully, ^_^".

 

Within the given system, it would just amount to frivolous looting. *shrug*

[Silent Winter]

It does seem a bit odd, and it is nice to be able to just attempt on anyone. However, with PoE's "checks outside of combat aren't rolls" system, it'd be a little weird. "Try this guy... nope, I failed 'cause my Dex isn't high enough." OR, "I have max Dex... I pick EVERYONE'S pockets successfully, ^_^".

 

Within the given system, it would just amount to frivolous looting. *shrug*

unless most people have little to nothing on them - successfully looting 2 cp from everyone in the village gets you 20 cp for a lot of work - or even max-dex doesn't get you everyone so it'd still be a gamble if 'peasant A' could be pick-pocketed or if 'Commoner B' is too alert.

[Silent Winter]

Edit: double-post

Edited July 25, 2014 by Silent Winter

[Michael_Galt]

Well, I guess it is a good thing I asked- at least I know what to expect now.  Thanks for the clarification, Nightstalker.

[Night Stalker]

Well, I guess it is a good thing I asked- at least I know what to expect now.  Thanks for the clarification, Nightstalker.

 

You're welcome.

[Lephys]

unless most people have little to nothing on them - successfully looting 2 cp from everyone in the village gets you 20 cp for a lot of work - or even max-dex doesn't get you everyone so it'd still be a gamble if 'peasant A' could be pick-pocketed or if 'Commoner B' is too alert.

You're right, and that's what I should've said -- gamble. At that point, it would just be a big, convoluted slot machine. Obviously you could only piss people off by being caught trying to pilfer from them so many times (if even more than 1) before it's no longer feasible to even complete the game. "All the guards are going to murder me on-sight now, in this town where I need to speak with such-and-such to progress the story." So, you'd have to reload. And if you succeeded? You get free money. Potentially from anyone with pockets in the entire game.

 

It's cool in a sandboxy way, but, it really isn't necessary to be able to actively gamble with every single pocket you come across. *shrug*

 

I like fully-active pickpocketing skills. I just don't think they really offer much in a game like this. So long as the game always gives you the opportunity to attempt to pickpocket in significant situations (as in, whenever there's a quest or situation that could warrant the potential forced acquisition of an item from someone -- basically, if you had a reason to be searching for something that might be on that person), then it'll be fine. Need to get into a house for some reason? Maybe you can pickpocket the key from the owner. Need to put a stop to some kind of official business? Maybe you can pickpocket the sealed document from a messenger's satchel or something, if you can find out who has it.

 

The typical approach to pickpocketing is "see everything that's on their person, THEN maybe get caught when you try to take something," which is a bit silly, anyway. It at least shouldn't be done like that.

[kangaxxter]

In the new XCOM game they have a mechanic that stops "save scumming" without saving the game each time.  

 

Save a game just before taking a shot at an alien and miss. No matter how many times you reload the game that shot will always miss. 

http://xcom.wikia.com/wiki/Random_vs_Seed_(XCOM:_Enemy_Unknown)

The original infinity engine games didn't do anything with seeding (as far as my experience goes), because they were based on the D&D system and all the math already existed for the tabletop game, so really the only behind the scenes mechanic that was needed was just a RNG that could be weighted for different dice rolls, and all the math for all the combat and skill interactions was just directly copied (for BG1 at least) from the 2nd Edition rulebook.

 

If seeding is only really used to "fix" the lockpicking mechanic, it seems like a lot of effort to implement a feature that is fun-to-have feature as opposed to a need-to-have feature.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.