About hate-mail and other online abuse.

[Amentep]

I disagree, but for that last part I didn't? In the same post I even mentioned I'm not defending Beer. that's not even remotely my point. My point is, if you're acting like a **** don't expect to not get the same in return.

Right I was making a general summation that I think if party A is being a jerk and party B is being a jerk we need to call them both jerks. Which, as you mention, wasn't what you were saying and I'm not trying to establish you are.

 

But I don't think this thread is just about the Beer-Fish situation, so I'm trying to move us to more general areas of discussion. I have very little knowledge of Beer or Fish other than that both of them seem to have some pre-standing issues both with the fan community and with each other and that neither of them come off looking very good in their specific embroilment.

 

Nothing wrong with that idea, pretty much how real life works - insulting people constantly will probably get you that in return, no ?

If everyone flings ****, pretty soon everyone is covered in ****.

 

RE: the Panel - I think the panel's answer is kind of disappointing on many levels. They don't really articulate what they dislike so much as to claim the games "suck" particularly with regard to referencing things that are bad in Japanese games that are also bad in Western games.

 

It would have been better to try and find a tactful response. But again my impression is that this isn't how people are developing their conversational skills and part of that is how the internet and social media is teaching people to act.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Amentep

[alanschu]

There's a difference between a online forum and real-life.

 

This is the problem.  Maybe we should stop assuming this is the case, because we're all pretty brave with a keyboard a monitor in front of us.

 

I see a whole heck of a lot of "Phil Fish brought it on himself" and "He needs to be the better man."  Why does this not just reciprocate that see Phil Fish's comments as provocative and saber rattling?

 

For all the "Phil Fish brought it on himself," why are the people that chastise him in virulent ways also not held up to the "be a better man?"  Because, as you say "Phil Fish brought it on himself."  And that evidently DOES make it okay, since you're focusing on the fact that Phil Fish brought it on himself, rather than looking at the whole situation and going "the vocal gaming community is pretty god damned ****ed up and it needs to stop on all ends."

 

 

 

 

- Discussions on an internet portal are never the same as in real-life. Having someone say *You suck* to your face is a completly different situation. How would you like it, if I insulted your work, or anything that's important to you. Not in a discussion, but by throwing insults around directly in your face with maybe your friends around to listen. In many social situations this even ends physically.

 

I've been straight up called lazy in person and on the internet.  It pisses me off just the same.  The difference with the internet portal is that we can defense mechanism and rationalize more easily, because your assailant is NOT within punching range most of the time.  That we dismiss a "you suck" over the internet moreso than in person is the tragedy here, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited July 30, 2013 by alanschu

[Malcador]

Well, not everyone is as saintly as you to put up with jerkish behaviour without taking a shot back, I suppose. Wouldn't say Fish needs to be a bigger man or anything - just needs to not be a drama queen so to speak about the whole thing.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Malcador

[C2B]

Which is kind of what I'm getting at, being tactless in real life or online is the same

 

 

It isn't (yet. As this may very well come in the future)

 

For one reason. Your senses. It's just not the same emotionally compared to being in the actual situation.

 

Being an **** on the internet is still bad (which is why I critizized Fish on that as well). But in real life a real hurtful situation can become ten times worse.

 

I'm saying this as a person who got riducled several times during his youth in front of family and friends (And not in the sense of typical bullying. Long story)

 

THAT hurts (emotionally at least. There are still tons of worse things out there). Being told I'm a moron on the internet doesn't faze me nearly as much.

Edited July 30, 2013 by C2B

[Amentep]

 

Which is kind of what I'm getting at, being tactless in real life or online is the same

 

It isn't (yet. As this may very well come int future)

 

For one reason. Your senses. It's just not the same emotionally compared to being in the actual situation.

 

Sure its the same. That the "slighted person" is impotent to act rashly towards the "insulter" doesn't change the nature of what you're doing. It just means you can get away with it without repercussions for the most part.

 

Back when I was a mod for Black Isle, one of the other mods created a page with a lot of BIS mods' & posters' pictures (self-submitted). One gadfly decided to start saying in the IRC chat that I looked like "a child molester". I can assure you that this kind of defamation could not have bothered me more, upset me more or made me more angry had it been said to my face instead of over an IRC chat.

 

The problem is that there are far too many people who think "oh its just the internet" and dismiss the idea that what people put here for others to read is completely harmless. It is why we have anonymous tweeters tweeting rape threats to a journalist who successfully petitioned for Jane Austin to be put on a £10 note. Because not enough people think that the internet and social media "matter" and that those offended just need to "get over it". And if they don't they get attacked for being "thin skinned".

Edited July 30, 2013 by Amentep

[JFSOCC]

snip

That's not what I got from that video at all. He was asked his opinion and he gave it, frankly and well argued. (well, the argument did come after his statement...)

And you may or may not agree with it, but at no point was he directly insulting anyone.

[C2B]

 

 

Which is kind of what I'm getting at, being tactless in real life or online is the same

 

It isn't (yet. As this may very well come int future)

 

For one reason. Your senses. It's just not the same emotionally compared to being in the actual situation.

 

Sure its the same. That the "slighted person" is impotent to act rashly towards the "insulter" doesn't change the nature of what you're doing. It just means you can get away with it without repercussions for the most part.

 

Back when I was a mod for Black Isle, one of the other mods created a page with a lot of BIS mods & posters pictures (self-submitted). One gadfly decided to start saying in the IRC chat that I looked like "a child molester". I can assure you that this kind of defamation of character could not have bothered me more, upset me more or made me more angry had it been said to my face instead of over an IRC chat.

 

The problem is that there are far too many people who think "oh its just the internet" and dismiss the idea that what people put here for others to read is completely harmless. It is why we have anonymous tweeters tweeting rape threats to a journalist who successfully petitioned for Jane Austin to be put on a £10 note. Because not enough people think that the internet and social media "matter" and that those offended just need to "get over it". And if they don't they get attacked for being "thin skinned".

 

 

Oh, it's certainly a problem that the internet is taken too lightly. (Facebook bullying and other stuff becoming a bigger issue for example. I actually had/have to counsel on some of that stuff myself.)

 

And I may have miscommunicated things here. It's the same for the one who makes the insult, it's not the exact same for the one who recieves it.

 

For example in the video: You take the whole moment in, not just the post as you do on the internet. A important factor in the video is that there is an audience that looks at the situation. Maybe your friends are even in there. Hello, shame. There's other stuff as well. Smell can too factor in the equation.

 

Though of course, with technolgic advances that may very well be the case in the future here as well. And then there is no real difference.

 

@JFSOCC You suck isn't an insult or at least rude? And Phil Fish insulting another developer is ok? Also again, the argument itself is questionable as it relates to western games as well. Apart from the fact that the argument itself isn't accurate, due to the existence of games like Demon's/Dark Souls even if they are exceptions.

 

Another thing about Fish, but I personally don't think that's his worst. He's gone on record saying consoles are for gaming and pc's for spreadsheats. Which is why it's a bit funny seeing him defended in a forum relating to a pc only game.

Edited July 30, 2013 by C2B

[alanschu]

And I may have miscommunicated things here. It's the same for the one who makes the insult, it's not the exact same for the one who recieves it.

 

I think, if anything, you have this reversed.

 

It's not the same for the person making the insult.  Hence why you're far more likely to see people threaten rape of other people on the internet, rather than in person.

 

Now granted, I will concede that someone saying to another's face "I'm going to rape you" will convey a greater sense of concern, because the idea that the person may actually do that is heightened since they're actually in close proximity.  I imagine the concern goes up with other aggravating circumstances, such as "are we alone" and whatnot.

 

However, in my opinion the only reason why a receiver may take a "Shut up you ****" type of remark with less intensity via the internet, is because (and this is a bad thing) we've allowed our interactions on the internet to make comments like this commonplace.  We become dismissive because "it's just some troll on the internet" and he can't really do anything to me (nor can I do anything to him... >.>).  But these are actually all defense mechanisms, and while we may be conditioned to start applying them almost immediately, I question that it means, intrinsically, that the comments themselves don't affect us the same while in the moment.  It's just that our only recourse is to find a way to not let it bother us, for our own mental health.

Edited July 30, 2013 by alanschu

[JFSOCC]

btw, regardless of how you feel about the (clearly controversial) Phil Fish, I do think the core message of my post holds up: We can all contribute to having our discourse be civil, so that we do not create a hostile working environment.

Edited July 30, 2013 by JFSOCC

[KillerClowns]

I love offensive humor (see 

), and I can shrug off trolls if necessary. But the childish insults and obscene threats that are so common among third rate trolls? Why would anyone who isn't utterly unfit for society think that counts as somehow funny?

 

As for Phil Fish: he was being a jackhole, yeah. But let's be honest, he did  what a lot of creative types have fantasized about doing, but thankfully do not. That doesn't make it right, to be clear, and having played Fez, I'm hoping he reconsiders on making a sequel, but... c'est la vie. Actions have consequences

Edited July 30, 2013 by KillerClowns

[Malcador]

I'd think it be different offline vs online for both parties. One is more emboldened in one situation, the other would be more intimidated. At least to me, words on a screen don't offend me that much or get a rise out of me as they do in person. Likewise, insults from me to others don't get the same reaction from experience. This is just insulting or snarky comments not doing something illegal as threatening death or rape or something. Although in person, I'd imagine those would be more worrying as well..the attacker is within striking distance.

 

Anyway, not like this will change much, people are uncivil in general these days.

 

Shame some **** hipster going mental is the impetus for this discussion in the 'community'.

 

 

btw, regardless of how you feel about the (clearly controversial) Phil Fish, I do think the core message of my post holds up: We all not to contribute to having our discourse be civil, so that we do not create a hostile working environment.

We work here ?

Edited July 30, 2013 by Malcador

[alanschu]

 

 

Shame some **** hipster going mental is the impetus for this discussion in the 'community'.

 

Phil's reaction (and I do consider it an overreaction) has certainly been a catalyst.  Though I had noticed the "calling out" becoming more and more common lately, and with the idea that "comments are not useful" and some places just outright disabling them now, I think there's been a snowball rolling down the hill regarding this issue for some time.  It just hit the super sticky, really deep snow right now with Fish

[Malcador]

Hm, maybe, there was the blogger complaining on behalf of the COD developer getting abuse - though still not sure what was said (I was also told that merely asking that is offensive as that's trying to judge someone's abuse by my rules...the world is an odd place to me.) But this did seem to be the trigger for gaming journalists everywhere to hand-wring and moralize about the wrong of the week (one said he was worried for Fish, though him rage-quitting life would probably be the apex of this idiocy).

[C2B]

 

 

 

We are not really talking about the same thing. Because being confronted with physical violence doesn't even factor in on my side yet. (Which is about the immediate emotional reaction that also factors in things like what we hear, see or smell. And context in general actually. For a more extreme example, someone insulting you in front of your house with your friends watching while spitting in your face. Actually had a similiar experience a few weeks ago where two *cat-ladies for lack of a better term* verbally attacking my mom after seeing a sickly kitten. There are lots of emotions involved (like someone invading your personal space) you're not going to get over a simple internet post.)

 

Anyway, we probably won't see eye to eye on that anyway, so let's discuss about what we DO agree. The internet is taken too lightly and there is too much vitrol.

 

With what solutions wou you improve that situation though? The internet as a social platform with easy access and (some) anonymity basically guarantees that you will never run out of hateful people. I'm sure some can be brainstormed, but IMO we need to tackle the issue on both sides. Socially in real-life as well as on the internet.

Edited July 30, 2013 by C2B

[Amentep]

I'm sure some can be brainstormed, but IMO we need to tackle the issue on both sides. Socially in real-life as well as on the internet.

I suspect - but could be wrong - that this is what Alan is getting at. I know its what I'm getting at.

 

The solution to the problem isn't in changing the internet; its addressing the stem problems which are all in real life. Where to start, how to proceed....all important questions, but we have to tackle the problem, not its symptoms that show up on the internet and increasingly in real life.

[Monte Carlo]

Phil Fish is a funny name. If I had to Phil a fish I'd use lemon, herbs and butter.

[BruceVC]

Phil Fish is a funny name. If I had to Phil a fish I'd use lemon, herbs and butter.

 

Good one

[C2B]

 

I'm sure some can be brainstormed, but IMO we need to tackle the issue on both sides. Socially in real-life as well as on the internet.

I suspect - but could be wrong - that this is what Alan is getting at. I know its what I'm getting at.

 

The solution to the problem isn't in changing the internet; its addressing the stem problems which are all in real life. Where to start, how to proceed....all important questions, but we have to tackle the problem, not its symptoms that show up on the internet and increasingly in real life.

 

 

Absolutly

 

On an another note though and to explain my earlier posts in this thread better. The reason why I'm not sold on the article in the OP is because of a piece the author wrote a week ago

 

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/why-you-want-****-to-make-your-video-games

 

"Why you want **** to make your video games"

 

This reflects actually another problem that is in the same vein, but much older. The belief that artists are exempt from decent behaviour because they are *artists*

 

Cue to the edge article about the whole thing

 

You might hate him, but he made Fez – and as such, he’s probably better than you.

 

This is actually my main problem with the whole discussion surrounding the incident. There's reasonable and good voices (people shouldn't behave that way), but there are people that are upset because a *artist* was attacked and how dare you insult someone *special*.

Edited July 30, 2013 by C2B

[GhostofAnakin]

I've often wondered about individuals who send hate mail or who threaten developers with physical harm over a decision made about a video game.  I can understand not liking a decision and engaging them in a discussion about it, but those folks who go beyond that to the point where they seem unstable?

[KillerClowns]

 

You might hate him, but he made Fez – and as such, he’s probably better than you.

 

This is actually my main problem with the whole discussion surrounding the incident. There's reasonable and good voices (people shouldn't behave that way), but there are people that are upset because a *artist* was attacked and how dare you insult someone *special*.

 

 

I must agree with this point. Being an artist, even one as clearly skilled as Fish, does not give one a right to be a jackass. An artist shouldn't have to endure torment and mockery simply for trying to create art. But it's a damn shame nobody was there to drag Fish away from the computer before he did anything stupid.

[Amentep]

Absolutly

 

On an another note though and to explain my earlier posts in this thread better. The reason why I'm not sold on the article in the OP is because of a piece the author wrote a week ago

 

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/why-you-want-****-to-make-your-video-games

 

"Why you want **** to make your video games"

 

This reflects actually another problem that is in the same vein, but much older. The belief that artists are exempt from decent behaviour because they are *artists*

 

Cue to the edge article about the whole thing

 

You might hate him, but he made Fez – and as such, he’s probably better than you.

 

This is actually my main problem with the whole discussion surrounding the incident. There's reasonable and good voices (people shouldn't behave that way), but there are people that are upset because a *artist* was attacked and how dare you insult someone *special*.

 

I don't have to like someone to be able to appreciate their artistic effort. But being a jerk sometimes makes it hard to overlook the person and see the art.

 

BUT on the other hand, I don't think being an artist gives one a free pass from criticism either. I also think the whole "[having done something] > U" attitude afforded creative types is conducive to the rampant hero worship crashing on the rocks of reality that often happens when an artist of any stripe is touted as the best thing since sliced bread.

 

(EDIT: I also have to add the internet seems to love building up then tearing down "idols").

Edited July 30, 2013 by Amentep

[Monte Carlo]

I like it when people put the boot into my work. I either learn from it, or I get to give some back if the criticism is reprehensible. I have thicker skin that most, admittedly.

 

But nobody ever asked me to write something and put it out there. I chose to do it. I take the compliments as well as the brickbats.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Monte Carlo

[Amentep]

I think from an artist standpoint, I'd rather have constructive negative criticism than a polite "I like it" with no elaboration. But "you suck" is pretty much as useless as well in terms of feedback.

[Orogun01]

True, although I dislike the pointless negative criticism the most. Is like being judged by a nitpicking slug that you just want to pour salt on.

[Lephys]

The internet is a bit like a megaphone. People are a bit enamored with the idea that little-old-them can say something and have it boom out to an entire crowd.

 

I mean, you could just make something completely up that goes against everything else that's been said about P:E so far by the development team, and watch how many people will jump into that thread to join in on the "discussion" as opposed to people actually evaluating it for what it is and being reasonably skeptical in the least. Or, look at how many comments on internet posts are basically "Yah me too!", and not actual contributions to the matter at hand.

 

Combine that with the "people are more compelled to make noise when something negative happens than they are when everything's fine" thing, and you get an easily exaggerated group of negativity in response to almost anything.

 

I'm confident Obsidian are up to dealing with this. I'm sure it still weighs on you a bit at the end of the day (we're only human, and we take in what's around us), but I think they know that you can't just read 100 internet comments complaining about things and start overly worrying "Oh no! Our design sucks! We're doing a horrible job!", or "Man, everyone seems to not appreciate us!"

 

I think they know how much we appreciate what they do. Even most of the complainers appreciate what they're doing. That's just often drowned out by their need to voice the "problem."