This George Zimmerman thing

[Walsingham]

With genuine respect, I don't believe those rights were bestowed by God. They were bestowed in blood. By Americans. Upon Americans.

[Calax]

 

The founding documents as penned by the Founding Fathers, including the Bill of Rights, were (and still are) considered merely an enumeration of our Natural Rights as bestowed by Nature or Nature's God. Human tyrants may have denied some or most of these rights to their subjects throughout recorded history, but that did not erase them from the human spirit. They have existed since the dawn of our sapience and are not considered as being dependent upon the founding documents. An understanding and appreciation of this helps define what it is to be an American.

 

To be fair, until the last century, you could walk out of your door and be killed by the world around you. Like nature world, not other humans.

[Guard Dog]

In a lot of cases Calax, you still can. I carry everywhere I travel unless I'm flying or travelling to a state that does not honor my CWP.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Even if Z was looking for Martin for those entire 4 minutes, there's almost no chance he would've found him in the darkness, thus Martin wouldn't have seen him, and couldn't feel he was being stalked because of it.

You said Z had a flashlight. That is pretty easy to see, in the darkness and all.

 

Besides Z told police dispatcher on the phone he was heading towards the back entrance (E), why would he lie at that point?

Because he'd been told not to follow and it's generally a Bad Idea to not follow police instruction- especially if you end up shooting someone?

 

Going by the timeline you linked to that has Martin arriving home at roughly 2.40 of the call after a 30 second jog, then spending a few minutes talking, then walking back.

 

Going by wikipedia's timeline to clarify matters there's a (minimum) 2.20 minutes between Z hanging up and Martin's phone going dead, and it ought to take Z maybe 30s to walk back to his vehicle, at most. It's pretty much inescapable from that that Z didn't go straight back to his vehicle after hanging up. That isn't direct evidence that Z followed Martin further than he admitted- though the gf's testimony suggests that Martin felt that, at least- but if he took the stand you'd guarantee the prosecution would want to know what he was doing for that time and why he wasn't back at his car earlier.

 

Here's the transcript of the phone call: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

 

It's pretty clear that Zimmerman saw Martin run in the direction of the back gate so he headed in the same direction. It's also clear he lost him and had no idea where Martin was. Z mentions in the police interview that at E he reached the street that went all around the neighborhood (his own street), so it's quite possible he walked some way along it and then returned. None of that changes the fact that Martin had to come back towards Zimmerman.

[Volourn]

The Bill of Rights is man made not 'nature' made. (thoguh I perosnally would argue that everything man made IS natural since man is apart of nature so everything we do - be it something deemed fantastic like  a beautiful painting or sacrificing yourself to save someone or something horrific like the holocaust or  nuclear weapons is natural).

 

What humans do is as natural as what bears do.

[HoonDing]

With genuine respect, I don't believe those rights were bestowed by God. They were bestowed in blood. By Americans. Upon Americans.

And upon White Americans, at that.

 

[Rostere]

There's absolutely nothing idiotic about citizens retaining their God given, Constitutionally enumerated Second Amendment right to defend themselves outside of their home.

 

[kalimeeri]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/wis-man-76-guilty-fatal-shooting-teen-19692102#.Uefn122YDYU

 

Judging by the relative lack of media hype (in comparison with the Z case), there seems to be nothing here for radical pressure groups to see and spin.  Why?

White man? Check.  Black teenager?  Check.  Racial profiling?  Probably, check.  Guilty verdict?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

There's absolutely nothing idiotic about citizens retaining their God given, Constitutionally enumerated Second Amendment right to defend themselves outside of their home.

 

[Meshugger]

 

 

There's absolutely nothing idiotic about citizens retaining their God given, Constitutionally enumerated Second Amendment right to defend themselves outside of their home.

 

 

 

Are you guys being weirded out by the "God"-part? You can always change it to Santa claus, the sun or your mother if it makes you feel better. Or do you think that armed self-defence in itself is bad? Just curious.

 

I do think that Zimmerman is morally responsible for the situation however, but not legally. 

Edited July 18, 2013 by Meshugger

[Calax]

for some reason, on re-reading that particular post... I'm wondering if god went on the 10th day "Screw it! SHOTGUNS FOR EVERYBODY!" and left a pristine Remmington 500 just sitting on the ground for somebody to discover.

[Walsingham]

 

With genuine respect, I don't believe those rights were bestowed by God. They were bestowed in blood. By Americans. Upon Americans.

And upon White Americans, at that.

 

Hah.

 

Well, I was painfully reminded of that scary sh** LoF/Cycloneman etc used to post about rights being constructed not inalienable.

 

I guess I'd say they arise from a universal sense and logical foundation. But I can totally see why it would seem like God for exactly this reason.

 

Still, they were won for the Americans in blood. I'm not sure it was actually worth breaking with Britain using blood. We're not so dissimilar now. But then maybe we wouldn't have been if the political establishment hadn't been traumatised by losing America.

 

I have a generally Churchillian and affectionate regard for our cousins.

 

And now I want waffles. And brandy. And a cigar.

[alanschu]

Are you guys being weirded out by the "God"-part? You can always change it to Santa claus, the sun or your mother if it makes you feel better. Or do you think that armed self-defence in itself is bad? Just curious.

 

I do think that Zimmerman is morally responsible for the situation however, but not legally. 

 

 

For most of my growing up, the term "God given" has just been used without any religious connotations associated with it.  I was curious if that was the usage here, or if there is on some level an assumption that the Second Amendment is a straight up reflection of a natural (or even supernatural) law.

[ravenshrike]

for some reason, on re-reading that particular post... I'm wondering if god went on the 10th day "Screw it! SHOTGUNS FOR EVERYBODY!" and left a pristine Remmington 500 just sitting on the ground for somebody to discover.

First of all, if god were to do such a thing he would CLEARLY have given everyone a gun designed by St. John Moses Browning. In the case of shotguns this means the lever action 1887, the pump-action 1897, or the Auto-5. There is also the 1910 but a 10 Gauge shotgun is right out. Secondly, you either meant the Mossberg 500 or Remington 870.

[Calax]

Meh, I really don't care that much about guns, so take your pick. It was just a point of illustration that humanity gave us guns and yet somehow owning and keeping guns is magically a god given right.

 

I mean, if it was god given, wouldn't it just be rocks and tree branches like when we were first maturing as a species (and a pack of rapists)?

[Oerwinde]

Plus, as far as race goes, Zimmerman isn't white no matter how people spin it. He is hispanic... but, that doesn't work for the story. He has to be a white guy... yet, when it comes to immigration story people paint republicans as racist towards hispanics... Talk abotu having it both way.

 

 

Hispanic is white in the same way French or Irish are white. At one point the conservative elements felt the same way about the Irish as they do about Hispanicswth regard to immigration.

[Volourn]

"Hispanic is white in the same way French or Irish are white."

 

No. Only if you are insane.

 

To say the French and Hispanic are both white is laughable.

 

It is illogical it doesn't make sense.

 

You put say a French and British side by side there is no descernible difference in their skin colour.

 

You put a French person beside a Hispanic there is a difference in skin colour.

 

I guarantee you, you saw me  and din't know my background, you could mistake me as most European country even though background wise I'm 90% french, some Indiain, and abunch of European countries mixed in. But, you would never look at me, and say, hey guyz, look at the Hispanic dude.

 

So, don't be silly.

[Elerond]

Hispanic or Latino are in offical vocabulary marked meaning ethinical groups that have their roots in Spain or ancient Hispania. Which means that hispanic people can be from any race.

United States Census Bureau has five categories for race:

• White
• Black or African American
• Native American or Alaska Native
• Asian
• Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander

And as you can see darker white skin that is typical in Mediterranean and Latin America is not marked as it own race.

[Calax]

The fact hispanics are referred to as white dates back to the fight over their civil rights. For most of it, (until brown pride) they were fighting to be recognized as "white" by the government, and thus enjoy the civil protections of being white while allowing the African population to just get run over.

 

Basically it was "We can do what you can do Mr. White Sir, because there's only to races on the books, and we certainly ain't black!"

[alanschu]

Hispanic or Latino are in offical vocabulary marked meaning ethinical groups that have their roots in Spain or ancient Hispania. Which means that hispanic people can be from any race.

United States Census Bureau has five categories for race:

• White
• Black or African American
• Native American or Alaska Native
• Asian
• Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander

And as you can see darker white skin that is typical in Mediterranean and Latin America is not marked as it own race.

 

I believe that there are actually distinctions, and that people are referred to as "White Hispanic" or "Black Hispanic" and so forth.

[Hiro Protagonist]

If there's something I learnt from this thread, it's that not everything is black and white.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If there's something I learnt from this thread, it's that not everything is black and white.

[Oerwinde]

"Hispanic is white in the same way French or Irish are white."

 

No. Only if you are insane.

 

To say the French and Hispanic are both white is laughable.

 

It is illogical it doesn't make sense.

 

You put say a French and British side by side there is no descernible difference in their skin colour.

 

You put a French person beside a Hispanic there is a difference in skin colour.

 

I guarantee you, you saw me  and din't know my background, you could mistake me as most European country even though background wise I'm 90% french, some Indiain, and abunch of European countries mixed in. But, you would never look at me, and say, hey guyz, look at the Hispanic dude.

 

So, don't be silly.

 

Irish are considered white and at one point no true white American wanted any of those filthy Irish in their country either.

[ravenshrike]

Hispanics aren't really considered white because of the Arab and Moor influence both cultural and genetic during the whole Al-Andalus thing which lasted for 3/4 of a millenia. Then there was the whole Spanish empire and further mingling with the native populations in their colonies.

[ShadySands]

Arabs are generally considered white as well

 

The point I was trying to make earlier is just that Hispanic isn't a race but a pretty diverse cultural group