CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Writing romance dialogues means variables for *all* NPCs and permutations thereof - one for romance paths (there will be several) and one for non-romance. It's thousands of words. But then again, with all your writing experience you'd know that, right? Yes, actually I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 But you just asserted that it wasn't a lot of work earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillerClowns Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Dragon Age 2 might not be a counter argument by itself, but examining what Dragon Age 2 did and why was it so poorly received can be one. And the truth is that there is a lot of people who did not like the approach DA2 used. The thing is, people like their choices recognized and acknowledged. That includes character customization, such as gender, personality, and such. This means that, as long as it's relevant to the context and the acknowledgement isn't inherently offputting (sexism, for example), people really dig when their avatar choices are recognized and reacted to by the game. Romances are definitely an appropiate context, and considering that they're intimate relationships by definition, it certainly seems like an area where this kind of acknowledgment should be done (and in romances with a set PC gender, it certainly is). The approach DA2 used for this trivialized all that. Everyone got access to all the characters, but it also removed all acknowledgement of character customization, and in doing so it watered down the entire experience for everybody. The results speak for themselves: some people didn't mind (which is not the same as saying that they liked it), and a lot of people did not feel their character acknowledged by this approach and found the entire experience artificial and bland. If romance is all about the connection between two people, things that make you feel disconnected from the characters are kind of a big deal. So yeah, it is possible to cut corners in order to make romance easier to make. But this is an area where corners should not be cut. Otherwise, you're sacrificing part of what defines this content in the first place. Besides, if you say that Obsidian should take into account the popularity of romances, shouldn't they also take into account that your approach is unpopular? (Incidentally, I say this as someone whose preferences are not usually catered to, so I'm not saying this from the mindset of "screw minoritary options, I'll get what I want anyway". Minorities have all the right of the world to get access to this stuff too, which is why a "if you can't do it well, don't do it at all" approach is respectful for them too.) Now you see, that is a counter-argument. And a pretty damn good one to boot. Don't know if I agree with it or not -- I'm mulling it over -- but it was respectfully put and thoroughly explained. More of this on both sides and this thread would be a lot less contentious. 3 Aspiring author, beer connoisseur, and general purpose wiseguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Jesus would all the white-knighting forum cops give us all a break? We're talking about pretend romances in a computer game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 But you just asserted that it wasn't a lot of work earlier. No, I said it wasn't much extra work (in the sense of graft) if done at the point of character creation - i.e. if you planned it in advance and implemented during the writing phase. It becomes 'work' in (the sense of a chore) when you try to add it afterwards. Congratulations that your work was published, but was it relevant to the discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) Jesus would all the white-knighting forum cops give us all a break? We're talking about pretend romances in a computer game. Well perhaps if you spoke with a civil tongue they could climb down from their high horses and have a civil conversation with you. Edited July 23, 2013 by CrazyPea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Congratulations that your work was published, but was it relevant to the discussion? Excuse me? You asked me if I had when you were point-scoring. LOL. There is only extra work to be done if you are trying to insert afterwards. I speak from experience - someone who has spent the time writing and implementing it. Someone whose work was actually been published. Can you say the same? * shakes head* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 You win Passive / Aggressive forum n00b of the year award. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Now you see, that is a counter-argument. And a pretty damn good one to boot. Don't know if I agree with it or not -- I'm mulling it over -- but it was respectfully put and thoroughly explained. More of this on both sides and this thread would be a lot less contentious. If people are contentious, it's just due to them waging this fight way back before the Kickstarter even ended. Same old grind - some need it, some dislike it, others don't care. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Congratulations that your work was published, but was it relevant to the discussion? Excuse me? You asked me if I had when you were point-scoring. LOL. There is only extra work to be done if you are trying to insert afterwards. I speak from experience - someone who has spent the time writing and implementing it. Someone whose work was actually been published. Can you say the same? * shakes head* I wasn't trying to score points, I was trying to show that I was speaking from experience in the field of actually writing romance in a mod. You, on the other hand seemed to be concerned with 'demolioshing' the 'passive/aggressive n00b of the year' (and you imply that you are not insulting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 That sure looks like trying to score a point though, waving your experience in his face (look at your question at the end). Anyway, it's idiotic forum drama. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Now you see, that is a counter-argument. And a pretty damn good one to boot. Don't know if I agree with it or not -- I'm mulling it over -- but it was respectfully put and thoroughly explained. More of this on both sides and this thread would be a lot less contentious. If people are contentious, it's just due to them waging this fight way back before the Kickstarter even ended. Same old grind - some need it, some dislike it, others don't care. I wonder how much of this would cease if Obsidian made an official announcement. Brian Fargo said pretty much from the start that romances would not be a part of Torment: Tides of Numenera and people accept this. I think part of this come from not knowing one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 That sure looks like trying to score a point though, waving your experience in his face (look at your question at the end). Anyway, it's idiotic forum drama. That sure looks like trying to score a point though, waving your experience in his face (look at your question at the end). Anyway, it's idiotic forum drama. Then if that is what it looked like, then I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurky Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) More of this on both sides and this thread would be a lot less contentious. I know, right? It's like this thread went back in time to September, with all the namecalling and such EDIT: That includes you, CrazyPea. You know, since you liked my post. Edited July 23, 2013 by Lurky 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lephys Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 After having read the majority of this entire thread, I can conclude one thing with absolute certainty: Romances are simultaneously a definitively horrible idea AND a definitively splendid idea. The entire game should be made out of romance, all while being devoid of romance. Problem solved. *dusts off hands*... 5 Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cultist Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The entire game should be made out of romance, all while being devoid of romance. Problem solved. *dusts off hands*... Then you'll get sued by this guy for plagiarism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lephys Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 ^ Why plagiarism? I feel like I'm missing out on a joke here. 8| Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 That sure looks like trying to score a point though, waving your experience in his face (look at your question at the end). Anyway, it's idiotic forum drama. That sure looks like trying to score a point though, waving your experience in his face (look at your question at the end). Anyway, it's idiotic forum drama. That sure looks like trying to score a point though, waving your experience in his face (look at your question at the end). Anyway, it's idiotic forum drama. Then if that is what it looked like, then I apologise. No need to apologize, you have actually experience in creating Romance. For me that carries credibility in this debate as opposed to people like me and others who argue more from preference and what they like in an RPG but have no idea how complicated it is to implement Romance Also don't worry about Monte. I like him but he is notorious for insulting people and speaking his mind irrespective if he offends people. He has thick skin That sure looks like trying to score a point though, waving your experience in his face (look at your question at the end). Anyway, it's idiotic forum drama. An idiotic forum that you feel compelled to keep commenting on, what does that make you? An idiotic hypocrite?...I'm just saying 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) More of this on both sides and this thread would be a lot less contentious.I know, right? It's like this thread went back in time to September, with all the namecalling and such Well a bunch of people did get very butthurt over an attribute system, so I'd say the fury is spilling over. Which is why I choose to spam the forum with pictures of women rather than try to have a civil debate with some of the more obtuse posters. Edited July 23, 2013 by KaineParker "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The forum drama is idiotic, you fool, was referring to Monte and CrazyPea being snippy at each other. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 why No need to apologize, you have actually experience in creating Romance. For me that carries credibility in this debate as opposed to people like me and others who argue more from preference and what they like in an RPG but have no idea how complicated it is to implement Romance Also don't worry about Monte. I like him but he is notorious for insulting people and speaking his mind irrespective if he offends people. He has thick skin Why, thank you sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) The forum drama is idiotic, you fool, was referring to Monte and CrazyPea being snippy at each other. He started it .... (joke - just in case...) Edited July 23, 2013 by CrazyPea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyPea Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 More of this on both sides and this thread would be a lot less contentious. I know, right? It's like this thread went back in time to September, with all the namecalling and such EDIT: That includes you, CrazyPea. You know, since you liked my post. I refer the right honourable gentleman to the post above this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintlockJazz Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Oh my, this is still going is it? Well, let this one fan the flames and throw his hat into the ring (and then grab it right back, you bastards ain't having my hat, it's too good for ya!). I'm one of the people who is not a big fan of romance, and don't believe it is necessary for the game to be good, and often believe they detract from the game as quite often if you want any interaction out of the character you have to bone them, and I'd like to be nice to people and hear their stories without having to shove my **** in them. I would consider myself an antiromancer I guess if you want labels, but I won't decry it like the anti-durability brigade did without giving it a chance. I won't get upset if they are in the game, I might even enjoy them, but only if they are done right, which means not teen fan fic that seeks only to indulge the player's fantasies, and not at the expense of other kinds of relationships and interaction. I am now going to go through the requirements the inclusion of romances would need to have before being condoned by yours truly: First off, the inclusion of romances would only be allowed by myself if all other forms of possible relationship the writers wanted to include are in there and fully fleshed out. I would actually like to experience some other kinds of interaction, comraderie and siblingdom for instance. No calibrations please. Second, the romance should not compromise the character in any way. I remember having a 'discussion' with someone on the Bioware forums (yes I used to frequent them many years ago, I was younger and stupider and did not know better), I told them that I want romances to actually take note of the character and only have them come onto you if you actually acted and had the characteristics that they would be attracted to. If Miss Buxom would never go out with a weedy mage type because she only likes muscle-bound thickos you should not be able to bed her. Their response was that they already had to deal with that stuff in real life and didn't want to have to deal with it in a game, that they should get the girl/guy regardless so that they can enjoy it, I'm sorry but if you want that then you are indeed after wish fulfillment indulgence and not after 'depth' of character if you are willing to compromise the character like that. Third, I should not feel like every man, woman and child is trying to get into my pants. You just chat with people in DAO or ME2 and people are clambering to get into your pants! I gave my character a charisma of 3, why is the elf princess trying to rape me??! This ties into my frustration with many games these days that constantly ego-stroke you. Seriously, games these days feel like the power fantasy of 12 year olds, wherein you are not only the chosen one but the chosen one who everyone talks about how awesome you are all the time, the best at what you do and are always 'speshul', the one chosen to stab everyone either with your metal sword or with your flesh sword. I'm not twelve, the average age of gamers is actually quite high now, lets get some decent high quality **** in the stories now. There was more, but I can't remember now. Basically, I'm one who, despite certain comments in this thread that claims all antimancers are not interested in character interaction, actually finds romance in games often removes interaction and investigation of other kinds of relationship. Also note folks that while polls may show that more people voted in favor of romance that more people also voted saying that they did want some form of durability in the game too and that didn't seem to impact Obsidian any. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64050-item-durability/page-9 6 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyCrimson Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I wonder how much of this would cease if Obsidian made an official announcement.Based on the way the internet/game forums tend to work ... not much would cease. The debate would probably just shift direction ... if/whenever the topic came up again. It's not a debate that is confined to a single game, really. Course, I'm a cynical old bat. 1 “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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