Update #58: Crafting with Tim Cain!

[ryukenden]

I was hoping for some screenies. Any, I wonder how closer are you guys from completing a single vertical slice that might be good enough to show the work in progress?

[dukeofwhales]

Are you planning to include BG2 style crafting of "Artifacts" such as The Equalizer, Halberd +4: Wave, Flail of the Ages etc where you find an item part and then when you find all of them you can make the artifact?

 

This is the kind of crafting I enjoy, and hope is in the game.  Combining my Pencil+2 with my Eraser+3 for a PencilEraser+6 was great fun in Throne of Bhaal.

 

I'm not huge on 'collect flowers and junk and use it to create stuff'-type crafting that we see in Elder Scrolls games.  It's a bit grindy, and I usually find the payoff isn't worth it.  Perhaps because I don't usually put many points into them because I don't find it that fun.

Edited July 3, 2013 by dukeofwhales

[Monte Carlo]

On one hand I'm glad the crafting looks 'clean' and easy to use, on the other I hate item degradation Hate it.

[uberman]

That Neve Campbell Tim Cain seems nice. Approachable, you know?

But that Fairuza Balk Tim Cain... that's one bad apple, you can just tell.

 

Oh yeah! Good update.

[Bhazor]

Ugh. Really not a fan of crafting in RPGs. The amount of junk it adds to vendors, the amount of busy work it takes to sort through whether this strip of leather is more useful than this piece of bark, the endless inventory bloat, the grinding for reagents, the grinding for drops, having to write a damn shopping list to tell whether you need this piece of litter or not.

 

How about instead of crafting you can find "recipes" that you then give to vendors who then start selling that item. Take your potion recipe to a magic vendor, take your armour "recipe" to a smithy. If theres no actual player input in crafting beyond picking what you want from a list then what are you losing?

 

As for weapon durability. That has never worked well in my experience, its always just another hassle. At least theres no gradual decline in stats, it's just "Fully functional till its broken". Least that means you can completely forget about for hours at a time.

[Monte Carlo]

^ This. I want to play a CRPG not a constant survival / resources minigame.

[Cultist]

That worries me. Mostly because this could spawn another Bao-Dur mule NPC. Who is useless and constantly stays at base\stronghold and only used when you have to craft something.

Also, I hate durability with passion. I makes me constantly check my stuff and go on regular routes to repair. And in Fallout 3 and NV it only made me stashing a lot of repair materials just in case.

This durability mechanic does not really add anything to the game, except for annoyance and it is better to get rid of it. Or at least have ability to turn it off\mod it out.

In Fallout, durability could fit into setting due to survival being the central part of Faloout universe, but PE would definetely suffer because of it.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Cultist

[Ieo]

I was puzzled in reading this.

 

What is the purpose of the durability stat in a single-player RPG?

 

In MMOs, this type of stat exists to balance out the macro-economy whether as gear/death repair gold sinks (to mitigate MMO economy inflation) and to discourage haphazard play leading to death. Per the latter point, in all the MMOs I've played, there are additional gear/soul/whatever durability penalties upon death. I'm not a fan of gear durability stats in general because often only melee characters suffer direct degradation, and worse, the heavier the armor type, the more expensive to fix (in some of the games I've played). Of course, in a single-player party based game there's no concept of inequitable gold sink distribution among multiple players, so it should balance out either way. 

 

Given that there does not appear to be any "death"/unconscious penalties to durability, then "smart play" or "death prevention" isn't a design motivation. There is no reason to prevent economic inflation in a single-player game so durability as a gold sink doesn't make sense either.

 

So we come to crafting, which is the bulk of the update, and that's an interesting way to hook the durability stat into the game, but it's a fine line between development creativity here and "busy work." Crafting, in particular, has always been an optional side activity in all the games I've played, single-player and MMO alike, with varying degrees of usefulness. Fortunately, players who dislike crafting can go to vendors for this, but that leads to separate issue of game economy--will players who choose to craft end up spending or saving money similarly to players who shortcut and skip that option? Because we're talking about a mandatory mechanic here that covers every single playstyle (well, besides those who choose to skip as much combat as possible).

 

What if the durability mechanic is tied to game difficulty levels? Honestly I would rather see durability as a measure of death/unconscious penalty than a universal ongoing thing, but I don't know how Obsidian's proposal will play out.

 

Hmmmm.

[Bhazor]

Actually rereading the update my biggest concern is the part about "add fire damage to any sword". So much for unique loot. So much for carefully picking which weapon to equip. Just socket a fire gem into everything you own.

Legend has it this mace was created by a blind pauper, his hand driven by an angel, the mace was bought by a king who saw in his dream that this was the weapon that would kill him. The kings fate and that of his kingdom is long forgotten but this mace still remains, rumours have it that to this day there is a dark cult that worsh- pass me that hammer would ya I'm gonna carve a lightning rune in it, thats like +3 damage brah.

 

@IEO

 

Well I'd question whether you can ignore crafting in any rpg. Even if you don't craft at all you're still going to end up having to sort through a dozen useless trinkets whenever you loot something or visit a vedor. Replaying NWN2 and its amazing how much junk my non crafting character has to scroll past to find that one special ready made weapon.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Bhazor

[Falkon Swiftblade]

Hooray for my most anticipated stretch goal! Forgive me if this ends up being a small novel...

Recipe's sound ok, and I like that there will be lots of them, and they'll be mixed up around the world, but I have some requests if possible. Can you try to make recipes a game mechanic, such as maybe there is dye and blank scrolls you buy and as you level up mastery over an item you learn different quality's of the item to write down a formula about it which allows you to master techniques such as improving speed factor or balance which may affect accuracy or something like that? Then those would be used in conjunction with the ones teaching you how to make steel sword. When combined, now you have unlocked how to make a sword of bunny slaying +2 Also for good measure, please make flaming weapons and the like actually show up in real time with the fx, and extra cool points if we can set baddies on fire on a critical hit and listen to them holler and run away.

A bigger issue for me that I despise in crafting games that I hope you guys will consider, is could you please make crafted items visually different than world dropped items? I don't care as much which is better from loot and crafted, but man I hate seeing the same item 100,000 times in 30 hrs. If I can craft leather armor, at the very least please allow us to add a dye to color it. However I would like my weapon for example to actually have characteristics that makes it unique from loot. Such as an Iron sword that is looted might look like a faction styled Iron Sword in that region, but mine might have a little extra flair to it like a bevel or shine to it than the standard one. Similarly, if items drop like a Rusty Long Sword, can ya please make them look rusty?! The more your team can make items unique looking the better so we can store them as collections in our house. Personally I'm hoping we can store suits of armor kind of like how the Bat suits were in the hall in the Batman movies. I know you mentioned damaged items will show up as such in your inventory at 25% or less, but I'd love it if it showed up visually on the character to give us a sense of character progression.

You didn't mention how Crafting Supplies will affect your inventory space. Please don't give it a weight system and keep crafted components separate from our inventory slots. Thanks for the update!

 

OH I almost forgot, I don't remember what I was playing, but they had an option in the game to use the collected resources to craft one of like 5 items which all had different stats, but some carry over. It would be awesome to be able to choose to craft certain items into a collaborative set. Maybe an option would be to craft a set of daggers, or a pair of gauntlets, or a gauntlet and sword, or maybe an amulet and crown... 

Edited July 3, 2013 by Falkon Swiftblade

[Dianjabla]

Crafting sounds good, but the more I think about it, the more I suspect I'll just be ticked off by item degradation. That's one thing I hated about Diablo, Oblivion, Fallout 3, etc - constantly needing to repair equipment I didn't think I'd even used that much. Oh look, after that expedition I'm actually poorer than when I started it... Yay? At least they won't break completly.

 

There will no doubt be one NPC whose sole purpose becomes all kinds of crafting - that's what happened to Sand in NWN2.

 

Maybe there's an enchantment that dramatically increases item durability, or better still, maybe there's an item degredation toggle in the game play options? Like FONV had with the thirst mechanic. There if you want the challenge, not a requirement if that's not what you call fun. It's not like I play games for any bearing on reality. Then again, I may find myself pleasantly surprised and it actually ends up being fun. We shall see what we shall see.

[GreatWizard]

To make crafting cool, I think you should really consider each item, and make it's creation story-book unique. It can involve the need for the blood of a dragon, or it has to be made at midnight, during a thunderstorm. Or a demon summoning ritual, in which you actually arrange the candles (a'la Ultima 7/8) and if done incorrectly it could have some interesting consequences (an escaped demon storyline). a virtual amount of time has to pass ( ie the character spent a day in the ruined temple), and seeing related descriptive text can certainly add to that experience.

I, like some of the previous posters, feel ambivalent about crafting in RPGs. I really didn't like the endless junk management of TES games, and I didn't enjoy the neverwinter 2 version too. Having automatically known recipes isn't immersive or fun, and insta-crafting doesn't sound very PPG like at all. It something that fits an action mix/max game like Diablo. I think that the Witcher's alchemy is an example of crafting done right. It wasn't a must, it wasn't a chore, and the various items used were used based on "color" and quality coding, which made it both logical, and less of a bother, since you could mix and match based on what you have found. And as a bonus it had some investigative elements.

 

 

As for the items themselves, I feel that the fun items are unique. They are rare, and they feature a cool story. When too many of those appear often in a game they loose the appeal. Generic player made items are not fun, unless they were really hard to create, and are the result of a long story line (something BG2 did for example, or one of the ideas above). It's really hard to imagine a TES recipe book kind of crafting being fun.

 

And, speaking of TES gathering random stuff was a chore, especially since it involved a lot of inventory management. If you decide to do it this way, please make sure at least to have a separate inventory for them, with some built in sorting, and no weight limit on flowers. (grind them into powders, for realism's sake)

-Great Wizard

[Bhazor]

Well as its moddable I imagine there will be an antidegradation mod within the first 24 hours.

 

@ Greatwizard

 

Exactly. Generic crafting is rubbish but crafting as a quest is great. If there were like a half dozen "legendary weapons lost to time" that you had to go on multi stage quest lines to find then I'd be all for it. My party chasing a rumour of an unmarked kings grave, finding a mysterious gem embedded in an altar, talking to a deranged scholar for the secret incantation that will call forth the new bearer of the weapon, rad rad rad.

 

Hoovering all the junk off the floor, dumping it all on a forge, picking up the resultant dozen sets of identical armour and then going next door to sell them at ten times the cost of the materials, lame lame lame.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Bhazor

[Ieo]

@IEO

 

Well I'd question whether you can ignore crafting in any rpg. Even if you don't craft at all you're still going to end up having to sort through a dozen useless trinkets whenever you loot something or visit a vedor. Replaying NWN2 and its amazing how much junk my non crafting character has to scroll past to find that one special ready made weapon.

 

The only SP crafting I ever got into was the BG2 style "discrete quest-type" discoveries. 

 

However, I get deep into crafting for every MMO I've played because crafting has direct bearing with the larger game economy; it's a legitimate and significant way to earn gold in those types of games.

 

SP crafting doesn't seem to work in an economic sense unless Obsidian implements things like item quests (you create and deliver) or work orders (like you need to craft # stuff for certain factions--this can be a way to earn reputation?) or give crafted items certain vendor silver value... This is besides the usual "you can make epic crafted stuff" per the functionality argument, but then I'd point to BG2 having that ability without any busywork.

 

 

In addition to my original thoughts: The proposed durability stat isn't even resource management because it happens ALL THE TIME to all players as they get into combat. I think this is my real problem. Durability should have a purpose, and it can't be a gold sink in an SP game, so the only legltimate reason to have this stat is, IMO, as resource management, which means applicable only in death (or unconsciousness in PE). Or something.

[Sacred_Path]

welp, as they put it now, degradation only affects your performance (a bit?) negatively. On the lower difficulty levels, you may still be able to waltz over the opposition even if your blade is a bit dull. OTOH, if you're playing on the higher levels, why not just embrace this component of the difficulty?

[DCParry]

As an aside, how will you make the JRPG-y food crafting not be ridiculous? No ancient recipes that allow you to combine ham, salad and a slice of bread into a health-refilling sandwich plz

 

You have obviously never eaten one of my sandwiches. It not only heals broken bones, but makes you smarter as well. 

 

And, I mean, it's ham. What else do you need?

[Sacred_Path]

You have obviously never eaten one of my sandwiches. It not only heals broken bones, but makes you smarter as well.

The problem I see pertains less to the fact that mundane food can have extraordinary effects (but this also), and more to the silliness of needing recipes to convert mundane ingredients into something extraordinary. Like, there are almond leaves everywhere, but I need a bloody recipe before I can brew a cup of tea, and the same again if I want to make use of peppermint.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[DCParry]

Hoorah for crafting details!

 

I shall toss my plea at you: Please go nuts with the recipes. I realize that no matter how you do it, there's still technically an actual recipe for each and every individual crafting product, but I'd really like to see things that are somewhat dynamically affected by the specific crafting skills/skill-values you have at hand.

 

What I mean is, maybe the same basic recipe ("Iron Broadsword") can be produced with varying durabilities, and/or varying sharpnesses, etc., based on skill levels and the specific skills/materials used. Or, even some material variance. Maybe an ingredient within a recipe for, say a hilt, is simply "cord," and maybe there are various different types of cord throughout the game, that are all blatantly identified as the same ingredient type.

 

What I hate to see (because it's so overly done) is the entire crafting system being presented, in-game, as little more than a giant spreadsheet of recipes. It doesn't feel like you're really discovering or dynamically affecting anything at all at that point. It feels like you're making ramen noodles in the microwave. "Okay, iron noodles + water + seasoning packet + forge = BROADSWORD! 8D!"

 

Making 50 simple Iron Broadswords that all come out a bit different would be stupendous. That would provide room for subtle customizations and such. *shrug*

 

I just think that's something a LOT of crafting systems could use: a sense of your specific choices mattering, rather than adding pre-existing items to your shopping cart, then clicking the crafting equivalent of "check out."

 

Recipe flexibility. That's what I'm advocating. The EXACT physical properties of the item you're creating should be able to differ, even with all the same (or functionally the same) ingredients.

 

Blarg. I always end up with like 700 more words than intended. -___-

 

I see what you are saying, but in the end, all crafting in all games will boil down to a spread sheet. I think it is just a quality of the medium. While I completely agree that crafting can get quite boring and predicable, over complicating the process just makes it more likely that it might be ignored. In the 15 minutes or so I played Skyrim I hated the crafting system with the hate of a thousand suns (warning: previous sentence contains hyperbole). Of course, this is just one kobold's opinion. 

[Gorth]

I wonder how "modular" the crafting system is going to be in its design.

 

Let's say, I figure out how to make a nice shortsword for guy. I can't find any recipe for adding fire effects, but I found this nice note sheet. So, if I combine the two, would I get a "singing sword" which plays a little jingle instead of burning flames when scoring a critical hit?

 

Yeah, just thinking out loud. Sort of gives away that I'm an old Nethack fan

[necromate]

Ugh. Really not a fan of crafting in RPGs. The amount of junk it adds to vendors, the amount of busy work it takes to sort through whether this strip of leather is more useful than this piece of bark, the endless inventory bloat, the grinding for reagents, the grinding for drops, having to write a damn shopping list to tell whether you need this piece of litter or not.

 

 

I hate it when I have to fill my whole inventory with crafting materials and required items (á la WoW). In nwn2  it annoyed the hell out of me to check all those damn crafting books, never really used any crafting until Mask of the Betrayer... so lets just collect all those materials to a different kind of tab in your inventory, or let's have a lesser number of required mats... for example it's logical that the blacksmith/crafting station has leather strips and other essential materials... also you can craft anything else needed from the metal you found (hilt, blade etc) -> you only have to get the metal/skin/weave for an armor/blade/robe and make it... and because it's custom made by you, you could choose the basic cosmetics (the form of the pauldron etc, like you could do minor adjustments to items in NWN 1... would be cool)

I also think, like some who posted before, that crafting should not be an "alternative epic gear". Your main source of gear should still be exploration.

[necromate]

I wonder how "modular" the crafting system is going to be in its design.

 

Let's say, I figure out how to make a nice shortsword for guy. I can't find any recipe for adding fire effects, but I found this nice note sheet. So, if I combine the two, would I get a "singing sword" which plays a little jingle instead of burning flames when scoring a critical hit?

 

Yeah, just thinking out loud. Sort of gives away that I'm an old Nethack fan

Hahaha, the bigger they are, the harder they fall!

 

I'm a big fan of talking weapons (pls do create a weapon companion for us) xD I gues a singing sword would be cool :D  A sword bard, find new musical notes for it to sing a defferent buff :D

[TheUnoNameless]

I always struggles with the idea of crafting in single player games. What purpose does it serve? If I can craft better gear than what I find on adventures, treasures feel unrewarding. If I can craft generic items, very quickly crafting becomes obsolete. Same with durability - it pursues realism, but not only does it not actually 'feel' realistic (patched up broken armor should not be as good as brand new), it ends up a minor annoyance, distracting player from adventuring to run to the village to repair.

 

Baldur's Gate 2 actually had great "crafting" system precisely because it wasn't really a crafting system. Artifacts that you crafted were unique, extremely powerful, and required you to trek across the entire game to collect the components. Crafting one actually felt like an achievement in both story and gameplay.

 

I also noticed that two out of three crafting skills you listed are mainly producing consumables. I really hope you guys learn a lesson from Infinity engine games and elder scrolls games regarding consumables - unless you do them absolutely right, most players simply won't use them. I always ended up hoarding a trove of potions in BG, simply because most had questionable impact, took time to use and didn't make enough difference. This was ESPECIALLY the case for Skyrim - I think I ended up selling 90% of the potions I found. I couldn't see any visible effect of that +10% ranged weapon damage potion, so I'd rarely waste time on it.

 

Single Player game needs different approach to crafting than MMO. Instead of using crafting to create generic items, integrate it into story. Instead of providing marginal benefits (+20% Frost Resist, etc), make potions rare, but give them visible, tangible impact on an encounter. A potion that instantly melts one of the non-special enemies. A potion that makes a character immune to some form of damage.

 

Basically my point is, don't repeat the mistakes of other games with crafting, make it AWESOME!

[Bhazor]

I hate it when I have to fill my whole inventory with crafting materials and required items (á la WoW). In nwn2  it annoyed the hell out of me to check all those damn crafting books, never really used any crafting until Mask of the Betrayer... so lets just collect all those materials to a different kind of tab in your inventory, or let's have a lesser number of required mats... for example it's logical that the blacksmith/crafting station has leather strips and other essential materials... also you can craft anything else needed from the metal you found (hilt, blade etc) -> you only have to get the metal/skin/weave for an armor/blade/robe and make it... and because it's custom made by you, you could choose the basic cosmetics (the form of the pauldron etc, like you could do minor adjustments to items in NWN 1... would be cool)

I also think, like some who posted before, that crafting should not be an "alternative epic gear". Your main source of gear should still be exploration.

 

 

 

Thats just mitigating the tedium/fiddly bits. That still doesn't make it any fun. I would actually love a hard core crafting sim. Something like the crafting in Dark Messiah of Might & Magic expanded into a full game with dozens of little nuances like the heat of the forge  and fully modelled molten metal. That would be awesome.

 

But pocketing any old junk you find then just walking up to an anvil and picking it from a list is... well it isn't awesome and why should I encourage things that are not awesome?

Edited July 3, 2013 by Bhazor

[Skie Nightfall]

Just please make crafting balanced and reasonable.

[Mico Selva]

Crafting system seems fine (I'm not a huge fan of this gameplay aspect overall). Item durability is a bit oversimplified for my taste, but I can live with that.

 

Oh, and the image is great. I'm guessing it is a modified movie poster, but I'm not sure what movie it is. Anyone knows this, maybe?

Edited July 3, 2013 by Mico Selva