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I would imagine if one were to use stealth, I hope there is a way to recover the loot like say...

 

[Just avoid enemy]

There is a rumor about [powerful enemy] and how many fail to stop him

*you meet a thief that help you distract the [powerful enemy] while you sneak into his house and steal the Sword of Godlyness*

 

Something like that...

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In "dungeon" (or equivalent) environments, stealth can be used to circumvent encounters or it can be used to set up good positions from which to start a fight.  The specifics will depend heavily on the individual dungeons, encounters, and characters doing the sneaking.  Conversations are less common in dungeon environments than in cities, but you will still have deep dialogues in dungeons when it makes sense.

[infinity mentality on]

Circumvent encounters and lose loot? Valuable loot? It's like skipping undersea section in BG2 en route to Underdark...AND LOSING CLOAK OF MIRRORING? CLOAK OF MIRRORING!

[infinity mentality off]

 

Which is as it should be!

 

 

There's only ever 3 reasons to kill something in a good RPG

 

1) Loot

2) Experience

3) Story

 

I'd be completely happy with a complex system that gives you #2 and Perhaps #3 by successfully avoiding the enemy.

 

But #1 Should be sacred ground. The best, most powerful magic items should only be earned through blood. There should be NO way to acquire something like a Hammer of Thunderbolts or a Staff of the Magi without killing someone powerful who's using it against you. Items like that lose all their value if they just fall from the sky and into your hands, or if all it takes to acquire them is to walk into a shop and buy them, or sneak past an enemy to steal it from his cabinet or whatever. Or even worse: Pick his pocket and take the powerful, legendary-level weapon.

 

 

Oh I don't know, you could have something like a trap filled labyrinth (perhaps an entire level of the Endless Paths?) built for the sole reason of guarding one of the treasures of Od Nua. Dangerous and deadly, but totally enemy free, make a nice change from more waves of Golems and Undead. I'm thinking something like a Raiders of the Lost Ark scenario.

 

You could have a Ciphers weapon, a secret kept by the greatest of the mind mages across time, hidden in the minds of selected individuals. That the cunning seeker must plumb and puzzle through to attain his prize.

 

A Chanter could find snatches of an ancient saga scratched into the ruins of various Glenfathan structures, and slowly piece together a chant of astonishing power through logical deduction and guesswork. And of course much exploration.

 

A Paladin or Cleric, famed for their devotion to the cause and their unstinting zeal, might be gifted with the sacred weapon of their order. The newest weilder in a long line of storied heroes and heroines.

 

A Fighter who has proven himself to be the finest weapon master of his generation, deadly and wise in the arts of war, might be awarded one of the legendary weapons of the Grim Brotherhood. Something like the Heron swords from Wheel of Time, a mark of mastery and undoubted potency.

Edited by Nonek

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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But #1 Should be sacred ground. The best, most powerful magic items should only be earned through blood. There should be NO way to acquire something like a Hammer of Thunderbolts or a Staff of the Magi without killing someone powerful who's using it against you. Items like that lose all their value if they just fall from the sky and into your hands, or if all it takes to acquire them is to walk into a shop and buy them, or sneak past an enemy to steal it from his cabinet or whatever. Or even worse: Pick his pocket to take those items.

I would say that they definitely need to involve a lot of difficulty, and I really can't think of any way in which it'd be fine if that difficulty in no way involved combat... but, I WILL say that the item doesn't necessarily need to fall from something's just-run-through-by-your-sword hands.

 

Also, you just made me think of something mildly unrelated:

 

Nothing that's currently being wielded by someone should EVER be pickpocketable. Could you disarm someone stealthily, then take that weapon? Sure, but that's not abstracted by a pickpocket system. They're never, ever going to not-know that the thing their hand was just gripping is now missing, or that bow that was slung across their torso is no longer there, or that their helmet is gone, etc.

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Gathering information about the enemy, could be a bigger part in the game. Divination spells of any kind, that scry the enemy or gather information about them by other means, without being detected if skillful (in all IE games, with the exception of perhaps BG 2, divination was the weakest magic school), the ability/skill to estimate how able opponents are and what weaknesses they have, before the fight even starts (could be an important ability for more tactical oriented fighters, and also rogues). Ranger knowledge, to estimate the strength of certain beasts. Also, magical equipment should be visible on characters. If some enemy figher  wears an adamantine armor instead of a conventional iron armor, I should be able to see it. 

All that is especially important for people who intend to play the game on iron man (like me), without saving and loading. 

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But #1 Should be sacred ground. The best, most powerful magic items should only be earned through blood. There should be NO way to acquire something like a Hammer of Thunderbolts or a Staff of the Magi without killing someone powerful who's using it against you. Items like that lose all their value if they just fall from the sky and into your hands, or if all it takes to acquire them is to walk into a shop and buy them, or sneak past an enemy to steal it from his cabinet or whatever. Or even worse: Pick his pocket to take those items.

I would say that they definitely need to involve a lot of difficulty, and I really can't think of any way in which it'd be fine if that difficulty in no way involved combat... but, I WILL say that the item doesn't necessarily need to fall from something's just-run-through-by-your-sword hands.

 

Also, you just made me think of something mildly unrelated:

 

Nothing that's currently being wielded by someone should EVER be pickpocketable. Could you disarm someone stealthily, then take that weapon? Sure, but that's not abstracted by a pickpocket system. They're never, ever going to not-know that the thing their hand was just gripping is now missing, or that bow that was slung across their torso is no longer there, or that their helmet is gone, etc.

 

Agreed. I will amend my statement to acknoledge the fact that good loot can be a suitible reward from a trap trial, or from completion of a difficult non-combat based quest. Sure.

 

But mostly my critique was to take a jab at something that I found catostrophically wrong with IWD2. The best items were found in shops in that game. And by chapter 3 or so, the player knew this for a fact. And this made combat feel like an unrewarding chore for most of the game.

 

They really *really* need to be mindful of this. Faulty loot placement will kill a game's fun faster than anything.

Edited by Stun
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In "dungeon" (or equivalent) environments, stealth can be used to circumvent encounters or it can be used to set up good positions from which to start a fight.  The specifics will depend heavily on the individual dungeons, encounters, and characters doing the sneaking.  Conversations are less common in dungeon environments than in cities, but you will still have deep dialogues in dungeons when it makes sense.

 

WHAT?! I demand to be able to discuss, flirt, and possibly woo any jellies, slimes, or molds I come across. 

 

 

 

 

 

Also: What kind of car does Deekin drive? A Nissian: Zoom, zoom, zoom. Zoomie zoom zooooooooooooom.

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Agreed. I will amend my statement to acknoledge the fact that good loot can be a suitible reward from a trap trial, or from completion of a difficult non-combat based quest. Sure.

 

But mostly my critique was to take a jab at something that I found catostrophically wrong with IWD2. The best items were found in shops in that game. And by chapter 3 or so, the player knew this for a fact. And this made combat feel like an unrewarding chore for most of the game.

 

They really *really* need to be mindful of this. Faulty loot placement will kill a game's fun faster than anything.

Yeah, sorry. I wasn't meaning that as a correction. Just a supplement to your already-good statement.

 

I'm totally with you on the loot thing. I think that's what pisses me off most about loot systems like Diablo/Borderlands (just using them for the TYPE of looting example, and not necessarily saying that these games do this exact thing in a prevalent way): It's not even so much the fact that you just constantly find magical things dropping left and right (which is bad enough), but even more so that the game just blatantly tells you "The more time you spend selling found goods at discount prices to bread merchants, the better items you'll be able to buy with your diligently-saved money... ALWAYS!"

 

Like, in Lord of the Rings, instead of FINDING the One Ring, they could've just been like "Hey, we really need a ring of power forged by Sauron, so that we can throw it into Mt. Doom and destroy him once and for all," and some merchant nearby would just have that. "Oh, hey, I've got one. It's gonna cost you, though, u_u... Tell you what... you bring me the armor and weapons from every orc between here and Mt Doom, and I'll totally give you Sauron's One Ring of Power. I actually have multiple of them, in case you want your whole party to be invisible and awesome, 8D!"

 

That's totally what happened to the Nazgul. They used to be an adventuring party, and Sauron used to be a merchant! O_O

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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really liked that interview. I got the sense that this guy had not only read other interviews and thus knew what not to ask, but also has been following Eternity and Torment. The questions about the mega dungeon and about Torment vs. Eternity were both really good I thought, and treaded new ground. Also his earlier questions to Chris, especially the one about whether he's afraid this will jeopardize their publisher relationships - Chris's answer was interesting...

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well to know what drops loot, you will only have to look at it. a wolf or a bear, wont drop anything besides maybe a pelt. a golem does not need to have on it any equipment, so it will drop nothing, except if it is an important guard and could have a key you need. a random group of bandits may or may not have something of value, but their boss will surely have. so in short enemies that dont have any equipment on them, will obviously drop nothing for the rest you have to take your chances

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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Hah, I just had a good morning laugh. :D "Ondra" is a fairly common male name in the Czech Republic, so I had to send a link to the map to one of my best friends, who's also named Ondra. Funny that his boot is a bay in the northern parts of the world. Ah well.

 

I wonder about the "etymology" of that name in Eternity. Could it be a thunder god like Indra?

Edited by Merlkir

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Hah, I just had a good morning laugh. :D "Ondra" is a fairly common male name in the Czech Republic, so I had to send a link to the map to one of my best friends, who's also named Ondra. Funny that his boot is a bay in the northern parts of the world. Ah well.

Your friend is super lucky. There are people who had to pay $5000 to get an Inn named after them in this game. But your friend gets an entire Bay area named after him free! Edited by Stun
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Hah, I just had a good morning laugh. :D "Ondra" is a fairly common male name in the Czech Republic, so I had to send a link to the map to one of my best friends, who's also named Ondra. Funny that his boot is a bay in the northern parts of the world. Ah well.

Your friend is super lucky. There are people who had to pay $5000 to get an Inn named after them in this game. But your friend gets an entire Bay area named after him free!

 

Or....

 

...does he?

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Oh I don't know, you could have something like a trap filled labyrinth (perhaps an entire level of the Endless Paths?) built for the sole reason of guarding one of the treasures of Od Nua. Dangerous and deadly, but totally enemy free, make a nice change from more waves of Golems and Undead. I'm thinking something like a Raiders of the Lost Ark scenario.

 

I would LOL so hard if the mega-dungeon actually had no combat encounters.  Lots of people would be pissed, but in a good RPG, you should be able to create a fun, dangerous and immersive dungeon without any combat encounters at all.  

 

My ideal, though, would be only a few, sensible and challenging encounters in a dungeon.  Things like undead are fine, and maybe there's a hidden base somewhere down there.  But the over-populated dungeons in D&D never made much sense, even with the whole "food chain based upon magic absorbing mushrooms" excuse.  

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Lots of people would be pissed, but in a good RPG, you should be able to create a fun, dangerous and immersive dungeon without any combat encounters at all.

o rly? All 15 levels of it?

 

Didn't say it would be easy, but it should be possible to create a dungeon full of traps, puzzles, and the like to keep the player entertained enough that they don't worry about the whole no combat thing.  

 

I'd be fine, as I said, with a few sensible encounters per level.  Just no mooks please unless it makes story sense!  

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Didn't say it would be easy, but it should be possible to create a dungeon full of traps, puzzles, and the like to keep the player entertained enough that they don't worry about the whole no combat thing.

A 15 level dungeon without any combat would be a standalone adventure game put into an RPG. I'd simply question the reasons for that.

 

Of course, a megadungeon with more puzzles and interactivity and less trash combat would be great.

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I find it contradictory that the aim is to be able to avoid most combat yet most of the class features presented thus far have been combat-oriented. I'll put in a preference for having a decent amount of combat in the dungeon.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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Didn't say it would be easy, but it should be possible to create a dungeon full of traps, puzzles, and the like to keep the player entertained enough that they don't worry about the whole no combat thing.

A 15 level dungeon without any combat would be a standalone adventure game put into an RPG. I'd simply question the reasons for that.

 

Of course, a megadungeon with more puzzles and interactivity and less trash combat would be great.

 

 

I like the option of having to solve puzzles to move the plot forward or navigate through a labyrinth of a dungeon. Maybe the mega dungeon could be a magical prison they're being housed in and the theme of the dungeon is to battle the worst boss types of baddies as you find a way to escape from it. Or maybe it could be a specific coming of quest, a trial of sorts which challenges the hero who must pass through to unlock their true potential. I would prefer a mixture of riddles and puzzles, mixed in with some scavenging and fighting.

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I would LOL so hard if the mega-dungeon actually had no combat encounters.  Lots of people would be pissed, but in a good RPG, you should be able to create a fun, dangerous and immersive dungeon without any combat encounters at all.

"Obsidian's Project:Eternity introduces the cRPG world's first-ever DIALOGUE GAUNTLET! Fifteen floors chocked full of PUZZLES, POLITICS, AND PERSUASION!!! Complete with all new larynx management mechanics! Bring plenty of water and utilize tactical water sipping to slow the progression of throat dryness/hoarseness. Skillfully switch out party members to allow for vocal recovery!"

Edited by Lephys
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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Well, the style used isn't all that different from historic maps. For example:

 

19955-01.jpg

 

I think it's meant to be more representational than precise. A hand-drawn look for the icons would probably be more attractive though.

 

 

The problem with this map and the other map was the scale. The scale of the map you linked is of a country side by the looks of it. the map of p:e was more of a country. I'd like to see old school maps of whole countries instead of a city.

 

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~28882~11202:Map-of-Central-Europe-comprising-Gr

 

here's an example. it's 1800's (so later than 1600's)

 

http://photos.foter.com/129/gutia-c-rrez-the-americas-1562_l.jpg

 

america's map 1572. (you're right here but this one is really off scale)

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/GoughMap_ca_1360.jpg/800px-GoughMap_ca_1360.jpg

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cartography

Edited by Hormalakh
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Well, the style used isn't all that different from historic maps. For example:

 

19955-01.jpg

 

I think it's meant to be more representational than precise. A hand-drawn look for the icons would probably be more attractive though.

 

 

The problem with this map and the other map was the scale. The scale of the map you linked is of a country side by the looks of it. the map of p:e was more of a country. I'd like to see old school maps of whole countries instead of a city.

 

http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~28882~11202:Map-of-Central-Europe-comprising-Gr

 

here's an example. it's 1800's (so later than 1600's)

 

http://photos.foter.com/129/gutia-c-rrez-the-americas-1562_l.jpg

 

america's map 1572. (you're right here but this one is really off scale)

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/GoughMap_ca_1360.jpg/800px-GoughMap_ca_1360.jpg

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cartography

 

 

cartamarina1539ik7.jpg

Map of Finland from 1539, a part of Carta Marina, which is map of Nordic Countries (+ Koala Pensula and the Baltic States), as you can see is quite decorative map.

 

 

Carta_Marina.jpeg

 

 

Edited by Elerond
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