Prism Program ( Big Brother gone too far?)

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's funny how concerned people are about NSA having a record of which phone numbers called which phone numbers, when the IRS already has all your private information and has shown it's willing to abuse it.

[Calax]

It's funny how concerned people are about NSA having a record of which phone numbers called which phone numbers, when the IRS already has all your private information and has shown it's willing to abuse it.

You have me confused. The IRS targeted groups with "Patriot" "Tea Party" and such in their names for audits. Not specific people who registered republican in "battleground" states. And like I said before, the IRS targeting those groups could have just been them targeting groups they suspected were abusing the 501©(3) system to have a tax free PAC, when 501©(3) designation is designed to be a-political.

 

And the NSA overstepped their bounds in the same manner as if they'd tapped everyone's phones. Innocent until proven guilty isn't just some word you toss around, it's how the law enforcement agencies are supposed to operate, but because of the creation of this fear machine by the government (and both parties) everyone operates as if we're all just foreign agents who are only waiting for the opportunity to sell the USA to [insert current enemy here].

 

No Prism isn't legal, it's the 'net equivalent of warrant less wiretaps on random yahoos for no other purpose than to perv on the phone sex.

[Walsingham]

 

Not really Hurlshot. Nothing will change. The media will eventually be told to shut up and they will comply because they are friendly to the current admin. The Briebarts and Drudges won't for all that will matter. Like I've posted before, the fatal flaw in our country is that too many people will accept the most horrifying malfeasance from the government so long it is "their guy" doing it. Nothing will change, already their attitude is "So What?" and they are actively looking to prosecute everyone who blows a whistle about it. 

 

I think we are in serious trouble.

 

GB why don't you come live in South Africa? You can bring Tommy and we don't have the money to afford programs like Prism so you won't have your privacy compromised?

 

 

I have to say I think GD would ****ing love South Africa. He's got trade skills. He could buy a big bit of land. Great food, great wine, decent beer. Plus if you get angry you can walk out, climb a tree, and punch a giraffe.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Not really Hurlshot. Nothing will change. The media will eventually be told to shut up and they will comply because they are friendly to the current admin. The Briebarts and Drudges won't for all that will matter. Like I've posted before, the fatal flaw in our country is that too many people will accept the most horrifying malfeasance from the government so long it is "their guy" doing it. Nothing will change, already their attitude is "So What?" and they are actively looking to prosecute everyone who blows a whistle about it. 

 

I think we are in serious trouble.

 

GB why don't you come live in South Africa? You can bring Tommy and we don't have the money to afford programs like Prism so you won't have your privacy compromised?

 

 

I have to say I think GD would ****ing love South Africa. He's got trade skills. He could buy a big bit of land. Great food, great wine, decent beer. Plus if you get angry you can walk out, climb a tree, and punch a giraffe.

 

 

Well said my friend

 

As usual you skilfully demonstrate your impressive ability to combine humor with facts in your posts, nice one

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

It's funny how concerned people are about NSA having a record of which phone numbers called which phone numbers, when the IRS already has all your private information and has shown it's willing to abuse it.

You have me confused. The IRS targeted groups with "Patriot" "Tea Party" and such in their names for audits. Not specific people who registered republican in "battleground" states. And like I said before, the IRS targeting those groups could have just been them targeting groups they suspected were abusing the 501©(3) system to have a tax free PAC, when 501©(3) designation is designed to be a-political.

 

And possibly individual Republican donors as well. But my point was simply that they already have all the personal info they could want about you.

 

Also they only targeted conservative groups, as they themselves admitted, so it wasn't base on any suspicion, it was based on viewpoint.

 

 

And the NSA overstepped their bounds in the same manner as if they'd tapped everyone's phones. Innocent until proven guilty isn't just some word you toss around, it's how the law enforcement agencies are supposed to operate, but because of the creation of this fear machine by the government (and both parties) everyone operates as if we're all just foreign agents who are only waiting for the opportunity to sell the USA to [insert current enemy here].

 

No Prism isn't legal, it's the 'net equivalent of warrant less wiretaps on random yahoos for no other purpose than to perv on the phone sex.

It is legal, since it was authorized by Congress, and it's not equivalent of wiretaps. They are (supposedly) not listening to conversations, but only collecting info on the phone numbers and such, they're (supposedly) not even allowed to look at it unless they have some evidence that it's relevant, at which point they can go back and check the record. Also the info doesn't belong to you, but to the phone companies and ISP's. Edited June 15, 2013 by Wrath of Dagon

[Nepenthe]

And suddenly everything that the congress passes becomes ok, the constitution be damned? Ok, I'll take your guns now!

[Orogun01]

 

As far as we know they have been doing their jobs without spying on US citizens on a massive scale. Its their job to come up with legal ways to find intelligence, if they can't come up with an alternative because they are incapable of it then I've no reason to believe that they are capable of proper handling the entirety of the US internet information. Plus what guarantee there is that info won't find it's way into other hands for purposes that have nothing to do with National Security?

The system is legal, so the point is moot.

 

The logic "if something ends up where it shouldn't" is bizarre. There is no guarantee that a surgeon won't accidentally sew up a scalpel in your abdomen. There is no guarantee that a policeman won't confuse you for a suspect and detain you. There's no guarantee that you won't get ran over by a car next time you cross the road. See the pattern?

 

So if the government makes a crime to be legal when committed by them is it not a crime? 

How did we go from grilling Nixon until he spewed this jewel: "Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal." to allowing the President to call out a hit on US citizens using a drone? 

But you're right it is not illegal as it's the government who ultimately decides what is law, it is downright tyrannical as it imposes its will upon the people. 

[Wrath of Dagon]

And suddenly everything that the congress passes becomes ok, the constitution be damned? Ok, I'll take your guns now!

I didn't say it was OK (although it is), I said it's legal. But the Supreme Court also said it's constitutional. In this case I agree, if you look at the fourth amendment, they're not searching your personal effects (like I said before, that data doesn't even belong to you). For example, it would be illegal for the phone company to listen in on your conversation, but it certainly isn't illegal for the phone company to get the phone numbers and the duration of the call.

[Calax]

People have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Meaning that unless the record in question is public knowledge, or extremely easy to collect, it's considered private. 

 

By the same token, Employers have your phone number, but they cannot hand out your phone number to anyone that comes along (even the government) without good reason. Same with my work schedule. Sure my employers know when I'm supposed to be att he store, but they can't inform anyone of that, only I can. 

[Zoraptor]

So, do you have a constructive solution? One that doesn't involve blinding and crippling the U.S. intelligence agencies?

Your rhetorical construct is inaccurate- they weren't in any meaningful way 'blinded and crippled' before prism. It's a convenience, not a necessity, and it is arguable whether it actually improves things since it's not simply more data that is important, it's more relevant data.

 

Problem is that you/ they are starting at a (n unachievable) solution and working backwards from there, ie we want (absolute) safety, so stuff done towards that goal has to be acceptable. My approach is deciding what is acceptable and then working forwards. Personally I don't have any problem with targeted surveillance with proper oversight, I have a very big problem with a blanket drag net and rubber stamp oversight because it will be- and for all we know already has been- abused. When coupled with a culture that classifies stuff because it's political embarrassing and targets anyone with the temerity to dissent to that classification there's huge potential for misuse.

[Guard Dog]

It's funny how concerned people are about NSA having a record of which phone numbers called which phone numbers, when the IRS already has all your private information and has shown it's willing to abuse it.

I am far more concerned about that actually. From what I understand since Obama has been in office every prominent conservative pundit has been audited multiple times. And everyone  knows they were going all out to stop or even prosecute conservative PACs while rubber stamping liberal ones. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/conservative-activist-green-name-gets-irs-stamp-approval-193457897.html

 

He is turning the IRS into his own secret police. Now they are even training tax agents with automatic weapons. What the hell is going on here? Who are they planning on fighting? I have an idea.

 

http://nation.foxnews.com/business/2010/03/22/irs-hiring-thousands-armed-tax-agents-enforce-obamacare

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/06/12/Rep-Jeff-Duncam-Questions-IRS-Training-With-Automatic-Rifles-Video

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/breaking-obama-irs-agents-seen-training-with-ar15s/

Edited June 15, 2013 by Guard Dog

[Calax]

 

It's funny how concerned people are about NSA having a record of which phone numbers called which phone numbers, when the IRS already has all your private information and has shown it's willing to abuse it.

I am far more concerned about that actually. From what I understand since Obama has been in office every prominent conservative pundit has been audited multiple times. And everyone  knows they were going all out to stop or even prosecute conservative PACs while rubber stamping liberal ones. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/conservative-activist-green-name-gets-irs-stamp-approval-193457897.html

 

He is turning the IRS into his own secret police. Now they are even training tax agents with automatic weapons. What the hell is going on here? Who are they planning on fighting? I have an idea.

 

http://nation.foxnews.com/business/2010/03/22/irs-hiring-thousands-armed-tax-agents-enforce-obamacare

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/06/12/Rep-Jeff-Duncam-Questions-IRS-Training-With-Automatic-Rifles-Video

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/breaking-obama-irs-agents-seen-training-with-ar15s/

 

GD, were they actually IRS? OR from the Treasury and people assumed they were IRS?

 

Because technically Treasury also runs the Secret Service.

[Walsingham]

I'm quite hungover, and a bit drunk, but I have to say, GD: you sound a lot like a militia guy I interviewed in the 1990s. Not a healthy sign.

[Orogun01]

 

 

It's funny how concerned people are about NSA having a record of which phone numbers called which phone numbers, when the IRS already has all your private information and has shown it's willing to abuse it.

I am far more concerned about that actually. From what I understand since Obama has been in office every prominent conservative pundit has been audited multiple times. And everyone  knows they were going all out to stop or even prosecute conservative PACs while rubber stamping liberal ones. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/conservative-activist-green-name-gets-irs-stamp-approval-193457897.html

 

He is turning the IRS into his own secret police. Now they are even training tax agents with automatic weapons. What the hell is going on here? Who are they planning on fighting? I have an idea.

 

http://nation.foxnews.com/business/2010/03/22/irs-hiring-thousands-armed-tax-agents-enforce-obamacare

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/06/12/Rep-Jeff-Duncam-Questions-IRS-Training-With-Automatic-Rifles-Video

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/06/breaking-obama-irs-agents-seen-training-with-ar15s/

 

GD, were they actually IRS? OR from the Treasury and people assumed they were IRS?

 

Because technically Treasury also runs the Secret Service.

 

No, the IRS has been training with automatic weapons ever since they let Wesley Snipes out. He's coming to get them.

[Meshugger]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/general-keith-alexander-cyberwar/all/

 

This is completely defensible in an open and free society. We should be thankful that they are only going after the bad guys.

[BruceVC]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/general-keith-alexander-cyberwar/all/

 

This is completely defensible in an open and free society. We should be thankful that they are only going after the bad guys.

 

That's a good read and I read it all

[Bos_hybrid]

I'm pretty surprised by the response from people of the USA.

 

I expected more anger about this, maybe even a riot or two. But it seems very subdued, I'm guessing most suspected as much?

[Guard Dog]

I'm quite hungover, and a bit drunk, but I have to say, GD: you sound a lot like a militia guy I interviewed in the 1990s. Not a healthy sign.

Those guys are starting to sound less crazy to me and that probably isn't a good sign either.

[pmp10]

I'm pretty surprised by the response from people of the USA.

 

I expected more anger about this, maybe even a riot or two. But it seems very subdued, I'm guessing most suspected as much?

Polls showed that majority doesn't mind.

FWIW they also showed that majority doesn't believe whistle-blowing to be treason.

Edited June 16, 2013 by pmp10

[Walsingham]

 

I'm quite hungover, and a bit drunk, but I have to say, GD: you sound a lot like a militia guy I interviewed in the 1990s. Not a healthy sign.

Those guys are starting to sound less crazy to me and that probably isn't a good sign either.

 

 

Ultimately I don't believe you're mental, so I wouldn't worry too much. Just remember that if it turns out you were right don't arse about taking potshots, and try to not to target civilians with IEDs. As a favour to me.

[Guard Dog]

  Not planning on it but no promises!

[Orogun01]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/general-keith-alexander-cyberwar/all/

 

This is completely defensible in an open and free society. We should be thankful that they are only going after the bad guys.

Darn good read

[ravenshrike]

I'm not particularly bothered by the privacy aspect of it. If something's genuinely private I meet that person face to face. Email just is not secure. If it isn't the NSA it'll be Facebook, or it'll be those t***s at Anonymous.

Unless the only way you meet that person is face to face in an area without cameras and passing handwritten notes to set up any communications, your attempt at secrecy is futile.

 

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-06-12/what-if-the-redcoat-nsa-had-access-to-paul-reveres-metadata

 

Metadata is POWERFUL.

[Nepenthe]

It's those damn g20 terrorists again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits

 

[Walsingham]

It's those damn g20 terrorists again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/16/gchq-intercepted-communications-g20-summits

 

 

Got to love all the chortling in the comments.

 

This isn't even news. I have books from the _90s_ in my library talking about eavesdropping at these sorts of meetings. In fact there was a woman who whistleblew on GCHQ about five years ago, doing exactly this. We discussed it _on this forum_.

 

People still turn up. It seems the slack jawed mandarins who attend have also learned nothing about security.