Prism Program ( Big Brother gone too far?)

[BruceVC]

Sup All

 

I'm sure most of you are aware that recently documents were released that the American National Security Agency (NSA) has been using an advanced form of surveillance  called the Prism program to gather raw data of communication of people living outside the USA or people in the USA that chat to people outside the USA. This would mean any social media data transfer going outside the USA can be monitored

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

 

What do you guys think, is this too intrusive and a case of big government involving itself  in things it shouldn't?

 

Personally I don't have an issue with it as I believe you can't demand your government do everything in its power to protect you from external and internal terrorist threats but then say you want your communications on the Internet to be private.

 

But I would like to hear others views

Edited June 9, 2013 by BruceVC

[Gorgon]

Do we really know  that it's being used 'for good'. What if the NSA happened to know something that would guarantee that a major order went to an American defense contractor over other bidders. Would they sit on that information. Would a closed senate oversigth comittee even object.

 

Whenever national security is involved the normal rules don't apply. Arguably no clear set rules apply at all.

[Walsingham]

I'm not particularly bothered by the privacy aspect of it. If something's genuinely private I meet that person face to face. Email just is not secure. If it isn't the NSA it'll be Facebook, or it'll be those t***s at Anonymous.

 

What I do object to is the ludicrous mismatch of the intelligence to what we do about it. Any time there's an incident these days it seems the people were firmly on the radar. But we're over-stretched in terms of incarceration and rehabilitation. The answer isn't to generate more intelligence.

 

For the record I am now firmly of the opinion that the only way to win the war on terror (as much as it can be won) is to commercialise lower tiers of drugs, and treat higher tiers as an illness requiring treatment. It is only be freeing justice assets from that wasted effort that we will generate the mass to put extremist terror onto the back foot.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Internet privacy doesn't exist. Also, "he who has no secrets cannot be blackmailed" - I really don't care whether someone monitors what kinds of gay bondage porn do I show to my close acquintances after jerking off to it.

[BruceVC]

Internet privacy doesn't exist. Also, "he who has no secrets cannot be blackmailed" - I really don't care whether someone monitors what kinds of gay bondage porn do I show to my close acquintances after jerking off to it.

 

funny

 

But I agree, I don't mind the NSA  checking my social media communication. Anything personal and secretive I wouldn't use the Internet for anyway

[Walsingham]

I should clarify that I feel very old fashioned and do not care to have my every move pawed over. But if as I say, if it wasn't a government agency it would be some smug autistic **** poking through my comms for the lulz.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Walsingham

[BruceVC]

Guys this is a really big story, I'm surprised that our American members haven't commented more. This could seriously undermine the Obama presidency.

 

I see now that the whistle-blower has just admitted who he is. He is a 29 year old  Computer expert. His name is  Edward Snowden and he  worked for the NSA

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/prism-spying-whistleblower-goes-public-210653346.html?.tsrc=yahoo#htsZp2B

 

I wonder if the will be charged like Bradley Manning who was responsible for the Wikileaks USA diplomatic cable scandal leak

Edited June 10, 2013 by BruceVC

[Tigranes]

 "he who has no secrets cannot be blackmailed"

 

Biggest steaming load of bollocks ever. 

 

Do you know what policemen will tell you to do, if you are apprehended by the police when you have done nothing wrong? Don't tell them anything. They just want to ask you a few questions! They don't think you did it! Oh, it'll be okay! No, don't say anything. 

 

Any and every innocuous, innocent, even noble thing that you do in your life can easily be turned into something scandalous, incriminating, sufficiently suspicious, when under the close eye of people who are trained to look for suspicious things and have some reason, whether right or misguided, to think you may be suspicious. 

 

Why should we now live our lives by the maxim that "you should live so cleanly and unambiguously that no amount of secret surveillance upon every aspect of your life will incriminate you, and if you don't, then it's bloody well your fault that they're now probing up your buttcheeks"? It's nonsense. 

 

As for the story itself, I don't think this comes as a big surprise to anyone who knows a little bit about these issues. And talk of wiretapping, Homeland Security, etc. has always been in the air. But the media have shot this one out of a cannonball and it may well become an overwhelming issue.

[Calax]

Honstly, it's kinda hard to get worked up over this. I mean yeah, they're combing through all our communications for things, but even with a word sorting program, you're still talking about HOURS of conversations that they're working through.

 

Per person

Per day

 

Quite frankly something like this doesn't really work because the NSA can't have enough people to sift through all the data and figure out wtf is going on.

[BruceVC]

 

 "he who has no secrets cannot be blackmailed"

 

Biggest steaming load of bollocks ever. 

 

Do you know what policemen will tell you to do, if you are apprehended by the police when you have done nothing wrong? Don't tell them anything. They just want to ask you a few questions! They don't think you did it! Oh, it'll be okay! No, don't say anything. 

 

Any and every innocuous, innocent, even noble thing that you do in your life can easily be turned into something scandalous, incriminating, sufficiently suspicious, when under the close eye of people who are trained to look for suspicious things and have some reason, whether right or misguided, to think you may be suspicious. 

 

Why should we now live our lives by the maxim that "you should live so cleanly and unambiguously that no amount of secret surveillance upon every aspect of your life will incriminate you, and if you don't, then it's bloody well your fault that they're now probing up your buttcheeks"? It's nonsense. 

 

As for the story itself, I don't think this comes as a big surprise to anyone who knows a little bit about these issues. And talk of wiretapping, Homeland Security, etc. has always been in the air. But the media have shot this one out of a cannonball and it may well become an overwhelming issue.

 

 

 

You make some good points, but the purpose of Prism is ostensibly to prevent Terrorist attacks. No one is saying you can't have other things wrong. For example lets say you didn't pay your full tax, I doubt the NSA cares about this so this you wouldn't be arrested due to the Prism surveillance. In summary the main debate is should the NSA be allowed to monitor social media in order to prevent terrorist attacks? I feel they should be allowed but the risk is what if they decide to take the mandate to other aspects of your life...like the Tax issue. Then it would be getting out of control

[Tigranes]

Given that the U.S. does not make public to its citizens information on who it is at war with, and definition of terrorism is very famously an internationally uncertain affair, it doesn't make me so easy. 

 

I'm not Middle Eastern, I'm Christian, I'm a humanities student, there's a very very low chance that the NSA will be looking at anything I did, unless I start publishing on the wrong subjects. But again, look back to how 'terrorist suspects' have been treated at airports and elsewhere over the last decade. Can you really use the logic that "if your privacy, dignity, etc. is harmed by wrongful suspicion of terrorism it's your fault for not living a pristine clean life"? Do you 'deserve' the extra risk of secret surveillance if you are Muslim, Middle Eastern, have 'non-standard' political views, have visited a Middle Eastern country, are an activist, etc? 

[Walsingham]

Guys this is a really big story, I'm surprised that our American members haven't commented more. This could seriously undermine the Obama presidency.

 

I see now that the whistle-blower has just admitted who he is. He is a 29 year old  Computer expert. His name is  Edward Snowden and he  worked for the NSA

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/prism-spying-whistleblower-goes-public-210653346.html?.tsrc=yahoo#htsZp2B

 

I wonder if the will be charged like Bradley Manning who was responsible for the Wikileaks USA diplomatic cable scandal leak

 

Bradley Manning is an individual who _while in uniform_ endangered ongoing operations. So far as I can tell just for reasons of a personal dissatisfaction. I can't begin to express my contempt and loathing for him.

 

Your man who has whistle blown is bound to have broken some legal constraints, but I can't dislike him so much. His move of going to Hong Kong as a 'bastion of freedom' is pure genius. The Chinese are effectively independent of the US, Hong Kong's very fast and loose within China. Both governments will want to show off how 'free' they are, and embarass Uncle Sam.

 

Plus, as I say, I don't see this as directly endangering anyone. The intelligence picture is already stronger than our means of doing anything about it. Either increase our judicial or military arsenal, or stop wasting effort.

[BruceVC]

Given that the U.S. does not make public to its citizens information on who it is at war with, and definition of terrorism is very famously an internationally uncertain affair, it doesn't make me so easy. 

 

I'm not Middle Eastern, I'm Christian, I'm a humanities student, there's a very very low chance that the NSA will be looking at anything I did, unless I start publishing on the wrong subjects. But again, look back to how 'terrorist suspects' have been treated at airports and elsewhere over the last decade. Can you really use the logic that "if your privacy, dignity, etc. is harmed by wrongful suspicion of terrorism it's your fault for not living a pristine clean life"? Do you 'deserve' the extra risk of secret surveillance if you are Muslim, Middle Eastern, have 'non-standard' political views, have visited a Middle Eastern country, are an activist, etc? 

 

Yeah, you make some good points.

 

Prism could become very intrusive and used to profile certain demographics only or people who just have a controversial view on politics.

[BruceVC]

 

Guys this is a really big story, I'm surprised that our American members haven't commented more. This could seriously undermine the Obama presidency.

 

I see now that the whistle-blower has just admitted who he is. He is a 29 year old  Computer expert. His name is  Edward Snowden and he  worked for the NSA

 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/prism-spying-whistleblower-goes-public-210653346.html?.tsrc=yahoo#htsZp2B

 

I wonder if the will be charged like Bradley Manning who was responsible for the Wikileaks USA diplomatic cable scandal leak

 

Bradley Manning is an individual who _while in uniform_ endangered ongoing operations. So far as I can tell just for reasons of a personal dissatisfaction. I can't begin to express my contempt and loathing for him.

 

 

 

 

 

Trust me Walsie I doubt you dislike Wikileaks as much as I do. I don't hold Manning as accountable as much as Julian Assange and his self-appointed crusade to "inform" the world about confidential USA reports. Who made him the judge and jury of what the world needs to know? He could have caused irreparable harm to many countries as quiet diplomacy is a real strategy for resolving certain conflicts

[Walsingham]

You think if we sent him a vuvuzela in the embassy he could maybe finally kick the staff across the line where they hoy him into the street?

[Nonek]

Just watched an interview with an american gentleman called Alex Jones on this very subject, personally I want somebody watching this man, nuttier than a bag of dry roasted.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Nonek

[Walsingham]

Just watched an interview with an american gentleman called Alex Jones on this very subject, personally I want somebody watching this man, nuttier than a bag of dry roasted.

I watched it with the sound off. Much better.

[BruceVC]

Just watched an interview with an american gentleman called Alex Jones on this very subject, personally I want somebody watching this man, nuttier than a bag of dry roasted.

 

Alex Jones is one of the most childish radio celebrities I have ever seen or heard. I cannot understand why he has any fans. Apparently his abrasive, uninformed and insulting personality is what draws a certain group to him? He does come across as a complete fanatic. You should watch his interview on CNN with Piers Morgan about gun control, he came across as a completely mentally unbalanced extremist. I was embarrassed for him watching it

[Zoraptor]

Manning and Assange are both awesome, true patriots and fine human beings who should be saluted for their fine principled stand against creeping authoritarianism and totalitarianism, and a culture that classifies anything and everything remotely embarrassing. And if they'd done the same thing to China or Russia both you and Bruce would think they were awesomeness personified and asterisk their national security.

 

(also newest stuff was six month old, none of it with a particularly secret classification, and per Sec Gates it didn't kill anyone at all)

 

US dissident goers to China to avoid persecution from government. Ed Snowden, you rapscallion and master of irony, I love you, and wish to bear your children.

[BruceVC]

You think if we sent him a vuvuzela in the embassy he could maybe finally kick the staff across the line where they hoy him into the street?

 

Assange will eventually try to leave the Ecuadorian embassy and I am confident he will then be arrested by the UK authorities. They are keeping quiet but I'm sure they are monitoring his movements carefully

[Nonek]

Yes his rather loud firebrand personality is somewhat embarassing, especially when interacting with typical English reserve.

 

Edit: Mr Jones that is.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

Manning and Assange are both awesome, true patriots and fine human beings who should be saluted for their fine principled stand against creeping authoritarianism and totalitarianism, and a culture that classifies anything and everything remotely embarrassing. And if they'd done the same thing to China or Russia both you and Bruce would think they were awesomeness personified and asterisk their national security.

 

(also newest stuff was six month old, none of it with a particularly secret classification, and per Sec Gates it didn't kill anyone at all)

 

US dissident goers to China to avoid persecution from government. Ed Snowden, you rapscallion and master of irony, I love you, and wish to bear your children.

 

Really Zora? You honestly believe that a private  person  has the authority to decide what confidential information marked by a country as "secretive" should be made available to the  world. Did you read some of the reports and opinions he made public? You can't be so naïve to believe that every international or diplomatic issue  between countries gets resolved in the media where we all know what is going on? There is a reason why we have  private meetings between countries where certain opinions are not shared with the public. This is the way the world operates and we sure don't need the likes of Julian Assange, who clearly had a vendetta  with the USA, choosing what needs to be bought into the public domain. Who gave him the right?

 

[Malcador]

Always got the sense that Manning just leaked what he did due to being pissed off rather than being some sort of crusader for justice. That and just dumping a bunch of stuff that he didn't even peruse and could have been pretty risky. Respect Snowden a lot more than him, heh, wonder if the Chinese think he'd be worth interrogating - they can nab him and everyone'll assume it's the US doing it.

 

His interview with the Guardian was interesting ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance) I did roll my eyes at his surprise that when training for the SF unit (I always thought you had to be a regular and then do that, but who knows the particulars, so I might be wrong) that people were more concerned with killing Arabs than helping people. SF units and helping people, right

 

Also, how is Assange a patriot ?

Edited June 10, 2013 by Malcador

[Humanoid]

Well he is running for the senate here in the election in three months' time, if becoming a politician means being a patriot (ha).

 

 

I admit to being totally superficial in this regard - I back the information dump being released because it's interesting to read about.

[Bos_hybrid]

I feel sorry for the people whose job it is to rummage through the data.

 

Those people are insane or soon will be.