Is PC gaming dead?

[alanschu]

Just came across this:

 

 

 

Indie gaming companies have tried to make that comeback, but it's still not totally with the games that I love.  I'm hoping Kickstarter can have slightly larger teams to make more of the types of games I want, and with them trying to appeal to gamers to back them...will go back to that idea of for gamers by gamers.

 

It sounds like PC gaming is "dead" because it doesn't make the games that you want.  Unfortunate for you, but I'm still very happy with my PC gaming hobby.

[AwesomeOcelot]

The amount of AAA games made specific for systems I think can be directly attributable to how profitable companies feel those systems are.

That doesn't relate to the sales, revenue, or profits of the PC as a platform. The consoles have always been the largest install base by far. No one was throwing money at PC titles in the 90's or even the early 00's. You seem to think their was some mythical era of PC gaming, but the truth is that PC gaming has only grown. "AAA" and massive budgets are a thing that have grown out of consoles. If you consider the PC to be a success in the past, it's a success now. Of course they're more profitable, consoles combined have many more potential customers than the PC. As was the case with the PS2 vs the GameCube and Xbox, that system had far more "AAA" titles, has far more exclusives, so I guess you declared Xbox and Nintendo "dead" even though Xbox game releases, sales, and profits grew. My point is that your definition of "dead" is stupid and you know this, and you're trolling.

[greylord]

Just came across this:

 

 

 

Indie gaming companies have tried to make that comeback, but it's still not totally with the games that I love.  I'm hoping Kickstarter can have slightly larger teams to make more of the types of games I want, and with them trying to appeal to gamers to back them...will go back to that idea of for gamers by gamers.

 

It sounds like PC gaming is "dead" because it doesn't make the games that you want.  Unfortunate for you, but I'm still very happy with my PC gaming hobby.

 

No, I'm not saying PC gamig is dead because it doesn't make the games I want.  I actually am considered a hardcore PC gamer relatively to others.  Of course the ONLY PC gaming they tend to do will be either facebook games (which I don't count) or MMORPGs.

 

People here don't seem to consider facebook games really as PC gaming.  World of Warcraft in and of itself brought in how much again?  As I said, you have to discount the MMORPG's in my book as what I would consider PC gaming per se, at least how we've understood it in the past.  World of Warcraft can bring in a quarter to a third of that 20 billion you just listed in and of itself.   (and now that I read the article and indeed the MMORPG's ARE counted in that number...it would mean that in fact PC gaming made a LOT less then 20 Billion or whatever you are counting when you don't include MMORPG's in that number.  Your talking when you take away the WoW, Eve, and perhaps the only MMORPG's that may be able to compete with WoW which are in Asian markets, along with ToR, you actually have a pretty LOW amount made by the non-MMORPG games).

 

However, yes, you are right, long go it was a 12 to 20 billion dollar industry, WITHOUT MMORPG's, Facebook games, and tablet games accounting for income.

 

Of course you did just state that PC games made more in 2012 than Console games...Consoles sold around 4 billion and retail games sold about 9 to 11 billion.

 

 

At a quick glance, it looks like it could be “game over” for the video-game-console business. Sales of consoles in the U.S. dropped 21% in 2012 to just over $4 billion, and figures from the manufacturers of the three top systems were lackluster over the crucial holiday season. 

 

Read more: http://business.time.com/2013/02/11/game-over-why-video-game-console-sales-are-plummeting/#ixzz2USjGAWWX

 

 

 

 

There’s less demand for the physical games these days too. According to research company NPD Group, game sales fell from a little over $11 billion in 2011 to less than $9 billion last year. Retailer GameStop says sales of new video games over the holiday season dropped by about 5%, and sales of used games dropped by 16%. “It’s tracking to be the worst quarter the company’s ever had in the used business,” Sean McGowan, an analyst with Needham & Co., told the Wall Street Journal.

 

Read more: http://business.time.com/2013/02/11/game-over-why-video-game-console-sales-are-plummeting/#ixzz2USjLj1tl

 

So either you're counting MMORPG numbers in that amount...or...you are actually stating PC game sales were larger than console sales?

 

No offense, but please forgive me while I scoff at that idea, because if that were true, every major publisher would be designing for PC rather than consoles, tablets, and all the other facets out there. (another edit, reading the article it sounds as indeed, the amounts included ARE with MMORPG sales.  so that accounts right there for that "PC gaming" you wish to include).

 

Which...if you hadn't noticed...they aren't.

 

PS: In regards to the tomb raider comment you made...I was mentioned the fact that while people were basing things off of a idea that only PC games had downloads and that equaled all things out, that in truth PC and Steam are NOT the only guys doing the game download thing these days...PS3 has a rather vibrant market in dlc and downloadable games these days.  Just ask Capcom...

 

Who likes to bleed us dry...

Edited May 27, 2013 by greylord

[greylord]

 

The amount of AAA games made specific for systems I think can be directly attributable to how profitable companies feel those systems are.

That doesn't relate to the sales, revenue, or profits of the PC as a platform. The consoles have always been the largest install base by far. No one was throwing money at PC titles in the 90's or even the early 00's. You seem to think their was some mythical era of PC gaming, but the truth is that PC gaming has only grown. "AAA" and massive budgets are a thing that have grown out of consoles. If you consider the PC to be a success in the past, it's a success now. Of course they're more profitable, consoles combined have many more potential customers than the PC. As was the case with the PS2 vs the GameCube and Xbox, that system had far more "AAA" titles, has far more exclusives, so I guess you declared Xbox and Nintendo "dead" even though Xbox game releases, sales, and profits grew. My point is that your definition of "dead" is stupid and you know this, and you're trolling.

 

 

Actually, if you've read other comments I've made, there are real thoughts that the consoles may be dying.  In fact, some consoles which are currently considered dead, have more titles that may possibly qualify for the AAA range made for them than the PC's....even though they are considered dead.

 

I'm not certain what you are saying in the last comment, but no, I'm not trolling, I'm stating what I really believe has happened in the industry currently, and thus far no one really has shown it to be different.

 

The closest was the Alan's comment in regards to the 20 Billion, but that was counting what I didn't count, which was the MMORPG's.  NOW, if you consider MMORPG the PC gaming in the traditional sense (which I don't, BUT if you do) than in truth, the PC market may actually have a larger install base moneywise than consoles, especially when you count in Asia.

 

PC gaming as I know it, however, meaning quality AAA games that we enjoy and love with SP and/or MP elements is rather dead at the moment.

 

The entire period of PC gaming from the late 90s died off.

 

IT IS having a renaissance ala the late 80s early 90s, which by my own admission, if you feel that was the truly living age of the PC, then with indies and Kickstarter, there's a chance that that type of PC gaming may actually come to fruition again and could be reviving after a LONG period of submission by the AAA types banging it down with the attempts to appease the population in general rather then the hardcore gaming crowd. 

 

However, even then, I think the largest installed base right now is NOT consoles, but is the Smart phone and tablet market.  After that, IF you count it as PC gaming...would probably be the facebook and those types of crowds and then the MMORPGs most likely.

 

I consider the MMORPG and PC gaming different types of gaming however, one being the more traditional type of PC game, while the other is the social gaming aspect.  It's similar to how I don't count the Korean or Asian MMORPG and their console MMORPG's either into my ideas of money and what's being taken in.

[AwesomeOcelot]

I do consider MMORPG part of PC gaming, and it has been for a long time, they have historical links to PC gaming, they're well suited to PC, and they're clearly PC games. Ultima Online, Everquest, and Asheron's Call were pretty big in their day. I don't really understand why you would discount them apart from they've seen large growth and massive revenue that defeats your argument. I played MMORPGs instead of other MP RPGs for a while, I didn't consider what I was doing "not PC gaming".

 

PC gaming in the late 90's didn't have "AAA" releases. The classics of the late 90's or early 00's were not the "AAA" of their time, they didn't have the same budgets, the same goals, or the amount of sales required. I also remember the biggest PC games, even in the 90's and early 00's being on consoles as well. There's a reason why certain genres died out, like straight RTS Dune/Warcraft-style, that's because genres evolve, people want a change, the little guys get beat by the big guys like Blizzard, Relic, and Creative Assembly, or EA buys them and kills them. I don't think there was period of PC gaming that's like what you're suggesting, under your definition PC gaming has always been dead.

[Hurlshort]

MMO's, like RTS games, are a perfect example of a genre that does better on PC's than it does on consoles.  I have no idea why they would be dismissed as part of the PC gaming landscape.

 

Facebook games (and casual games in general) can be dismissed because the market is clearly shifting towards tablets and phones for that sort of entertainment.  You barely need a running PC to play them as well, meaning they do not drive much in the way of hardware sales. 

[Cultist]

[pmp10]

I understand the argument that modern PC gaming became nothing but Sims WoW and minecraft but I think you miss the general gaming context in which it happened.

The pursuit of AAA has led to decline in variety and numbers of games on every platform. For every genre that has disappeared or got marginalized on PCs consoles have two that became arcade-only.

It's true that PCs lost the advantage they enjoyed in the realms of 3D graphics and multiplayer resulting in focus shift to MMOs. It was always obvious that PC gaming can't compete in the realm of AAA games but that doesn't mean they can't find a niche that will keep it going. 

As long as MMOs maintain a strong focus on PC I don't see hardcore gaming abandoning the platform.

[alanschu]

No, I'm not saying PC gamig is dead because it doesn't make the games I want.  I actually am considered a hardcore PC gamer relatively to others.  Of course the ONLY PC gaming they tend to do will be either facebook games (which I don't count) or MMORPGs.

 

Bollocks.  You're precisely saying that PC gaming is dead because they don't make the games that you want.  Which are the higher profile, AAA titles.  I also contend that you are, in fact, not much of a hardcore PC gamer, since by your own admission you feel that most games are better played on the console, since that's what they are made for.  As a PC gamer, most games I play, AAA or otherwise, I prefer to play on my PC.  I consider it a superior gaming machine (though I recognize that my opinion is not held by the majority).

 

You discount game styles that you don't care for (MMOs) or feel "don't count" (smaller developers/indie studios), and use it to substantiate a position that, because PC gaming exclusives and the meteoric budget increases that have come this recent console generation, mean less "AAA" games on PC.  This is because economies of scale are needed for those games.  But I still say that anyone that says "PC gaming is dead" because there aren't many crazy high profile PC exclusive titles, is drawing an arbitrary line in a sand that doesn't reflect reality.

 

You have moved the goal posts a lot as well, from discounting various games outright, to claiming it was things like DRM that were the cause for the decline in PC gaming.

 

 

People here don't seem to consider facebook games really as PC gaming.  World of Warcraft in and of itself brought in how much again?  As I said, you have to discount the MMORPG's in my book as what I would consider PC gaming per se, at least how we've understood it in the past.

 

Fine then.  Discount them.  Show me how much of the $20 billion in PC revenues is dedicated towards Facebook gaming (a segment of gaming that EA spent millions investing in, only to now cut short due to lack of growth and revenues).  How much of it is MMOs?  You seem to think it's most of it.  Why?

 

 

 

 

World of Warcraft can bring in a quarter to a third of that 20 billion you just listed in and of itself.   (and now that I read the article and indeed the MMORPG's ARE counted in that number...it would mean that in fact PC gaming made a LOT less then 20 Billion or whatever you are counting when you don't include MMORPG's in that number.  Your talking when you take away the WoW, Eve, and perhaps the only MMORPG's that may be able to compete with WoW which are in Asian markets, along with ToR, you actually have a pretty LOW amount made by the non-MMORPG games).

 

How much is "a LOT less than $20 billion?"  Lets look at World of Warcraft:  10 million subscribers (which is probably an overestimate), at $15 per month (also an estimate.  China doesn't actually "subscribe" to the game, and Blizzard only gets licensing fees.  I don't know how much this is), at 12 months, is $1.8 billion in revenue.  World of Warcraft is not bringing in a quarter to a third of the $20 billion I am discussing, and it is by far the biggest MMO out there in terms of revenues.  Sorry, I feel your estimates of WoW's contributions are excessive.

 

 

 

However, yes, you are right, long go it was a 12 to 20 billion dollar industry, WITHOUT MMORPG's, Facebook games, and tablet games accounting for income.

 

Prove it.  I don't believe you.  Especially when the PC gaming market was exploding in terms of revenues recently.  (19% growth in 2010.  Reaching a record 16 billion dollars.  It really seems like the "billions and billions" of dollars lately is the new forms of monetization (free to play, social gaming, etc).  You say it's replacing it.  Prove it.  I need more than "I read an article that said it was close to the porn industry."  The only thing you've given is NPD revenues (which is absurd - NPD is quickly becoming irrelevant).

 

 

 

 

Of course you did just state that PC games made more in 2012 than Console games...Consoles sold around 4 billion and retail games sold about 9 to 11 billion.

 

No I'm not, because you're saying that NPD numbers are accurate (they aren't).  EA expects to make more revenue digitally in 2013.  NPD numbers cannot account for that (and they don't).

 

NPD also restricts itself to the US market.

 

Reuters shows the following for gaming revenues (for 2011):

 

2011 Global Revenue: $65 billion

2011 Global Retail: $29.5 billion

 

Your console estimates are still low, because NPDs numbers have been low for some time, and they get worse every year.  If you believe NPD, gaming revenues have been in steep decline for quite a while now.

Edited May 27, 2013 by alanschu

[HoonDing]

PC gaming is not dead. It is undead.

[TrashMan]

Are "is X dead" threads dead?

[Monte Carlo]

How can PC gaming be dead? I've got forty-odd games in my Steam library. I've got CoH2 coming out next month and Rome TW2 in the autumn. PE is out next year on the PC only. I've got enough games on my PC to keep me happy.

 

Sorry to sound a bit simplistic, but how can PC gaming be dead when I play lots of games I like on, er, my PC?

[Oerwinde]

I have 10 PC exclusive games coming to me from Kickstarter alone, and that's a tiny sector of upcoming games. Plus pretty much everything Paradox puts out is PC exclusive.

 

Dead? Hardly. Its in better shape than ever.

[Apatia]

Why is greylord so fixated on proving that the PC gaming is dead? I'm quite sure this is not the first time he has started something like this. I think he actually used the same arguments the last time aswell.*

 

I have nothing new to add since someone else has already said everything I was going to but from where I'm sitting, PC gaming is alive and well, thanks for asking.

 

* Well someone did and I'm quite sure it was greylord. Might have to check that.

[Bokishi]

op is trolling

[BruceVC]

, PC gaming is alive and well, thanks for asking.

 

* Well someone did and I'm quite sure it was greylord. Might have to check that.

 

"thanks for asking"

 

[Monte Carlo]

I'm hardly the most technically-minded person on the forum, but computing power is accelerating so fast that *some* of the distinctions between console and PC are becoming blurred. I'm sure, eventually, some gaming consoles will outperform a lot of entry-level gaming PCs.

 

So perhaps the argument is based on an increasingly redundant premise.

[BruceVC]

I'm hardly the most technically-minded person on the forum, but computing power is accelerating so fast that *some* of the distinctions between console and PC are becoming blurred. I'm sure, eventually, some gaming consoles will outperform a lot of entry-level gaming PCs.

 

So perhaps the argument is based on an increasingly redundant premise.

 

Nope, a PC will generally always outperform a console. The rate that new console versions get released is every few years and the hardware architecture stays the same. Improved PC  components get released every few months so I can't see consoles passing PC in performance ever?

[Huinehtar]

Beware! the Y2K problem 2014.66783141592654 bug is coming! (do not forget "54", or your really undead soul will be cursed during 963 pico-centuries)

 

Computers will stop all entertainment other than MMO F2P DLC LOL BIP-BIP WTF ZzZ social episoded monetized games. No one will be interested in developping or playing games designed to be played on his/her work machine at home. In fact, no one will work on computer, and no one will ever try to do something else, and nobody will be interested in something he/she could have tried if he/she wanted to. Humanity will never try to do something new with tools we already have.

 

You have been warned.

 

 

P.S.: some prophets said Rock n' Roll music died on September 19 1970.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Huinehtar

[greylord]

Why is greylord so fixated on proving that the PC gaming is dead? I'm quite sure this is not the first time he has started something like this. I think he actually used the same arguments the last time aswell.*

 

I have nothing new to add since someone else has already said everything I was going to but from where I'm sitting, PC gaming is alive and well, thanks for asking.

 

* Well someone did and I'm quite sure it was greylord. Might have to check that.

 

The reason is most of the rest of the world recognizes it, so it is actually pretty fascinating to see how people who hid their heads in the sand react to this.  It's one of those things where you simply can't believe people actually believe that it is not dead (as per the ideas that the press uses as in...Wii-U may be dead, it sold 3.?? million copies since release, but that with indications of current sales, it still may be dead, or that the PS Vita may be dead...that idea).

 

So in truth, for this small group, I really can't wrap my head around the idea that people consider the type of PC gaming that we are all here about...really disagree with the rest of the world.

 

PC gaming used to mean titles such as what came out on the PS3, Xbox 360 and such...not MMORPGs and not the tablets.   It's one of rather, morbid disbelief that people would hide their heads so far into the sand that they'd ignore the difficulties.  That presents the problem that when ignored, normally that's a bad sign that things will be getting worse instead of better.

 

If you count MMORPG's, sure, it's a rosy picture, and if you include Tablet sales, things really pick up...but without them, your looking at a niche industry at this point.  The few BIG sellers sell big, but there are far fewer of them, meaning that the pie is split in fewer slices....and the overall picture is not so rosy. 

 

People mention download sales, but as the article I posted above, download sales are not the domain of PC gaming only, they are more common then many may believe in regards to consoles, and with tablets and smart phones, that's the main way of purchasing.  IF you use that as an excuse of PC's having a hidden amount they make...LOL

 

Though it IS true.  The big question is how much Steam makes per year.  They don't have any place they divulge that amount that I know of.  I don't think it could be over 20 Billion, but who knows, maybe it is. 

 

People point to consoles as being greater than PC sales...but consoles actually didn't get to the numbers you see now until PC gaming started getting large as well.  According to Wikipedia...Nintendo only sold 61.9 million, the Super Nintendo only sold 40 million, and the Sega Genesis only sold 40 million.

 

Compared to the PS2 which sold 155 million, the Nintendo DS which sold 153 million, and the Sony Playstation which sold 102 million...is it any wonder some are thinking consoles are dying?

 

Afterall, The Wii-U has sold less then 4 million, the PS3 has only sold around 77 million and the Xbox 360 has only sold around 77 million.

 

If they think Consoles are dying...what exactly would you interpret PC gaming as...if Console games which as far as I still know are outselling and are FAR more popular than PC games are considered dying at the moment and everyone is looking to see if it can be saved by the next Console generation...

 

Why exactly would you state an industry with FAR less sales and profits as...NOT dying or dead???

 

But hey...why use logic or any approaches to this...

 

It's going to be tossed out by you guys anyways...which is a good question why I keep in this thread...probably because unlike the rest of the world, you guys have a different idea of what dying or dead is in relation to games and computers?  It fascinates me that the very people and their supporters that could resurrect PC gaming are so disconnected that they would ignore the problem until something is really and truly dead.

 

On the otherhand, I would relate it more to a stage prior to the PC gaming explosion perhaps in relation to the PC gaming...approaching a period of maybe the Early 90s and late 80s (which I have stated repeatedly), which may not be a bad thing, depending on what occurs with Kickstarter.  Of course before we can really explore how that may "save" PC gaming, you'd have to look at it from the perspective that relative to what it was, PC gaming IS dead...at least unless you love MMORPG's and Tablets...

 

The problem I see with Kickstarter is that though it could be a herald to a second renaissance in PC gaming, it could also be the deathknell.  Say a few people get the Kickstarter money, and then run...that creates a lot less support for the idea...and that has me worried because I haven't heard of a lot of viable solutions to that problem if it became a regular occurrence.  Such a thing happening on a regular basis could kill an early 90's type renaissance of gaming in the bud.

 

(Why do I say 90s, because that's when you could really trace PC gaming to getting the foundations of the more popular gaming in the late 90s, but with far more freedom.  instead of the large corps dominating, you had a lot of smaller companies that could put out a whole slew of ideas with different approaches to gaming which created a lot of the foundations on which all gaming today is based upon).

 

AS far as me not being a major PC gamer...maybe you're right.  Afterall, I tend to only do Indies on PC anymore.  The last PC games that were even over the 100,000 mark that I probably bought would be DSIII, MSIII, and...Torchlight 2 (and it's a guess on my part that TL2 even sold over 100K...not even sure that counts).  Two of those I already had on a console as well though, so really only one what may have been a minor to medium PC release.  Everything else these days are the Indies.  Of course, if you want niche gaming...I would fall more into the niche of the niche playing more Indies than major releases on the PC gaming...but the small time releases where the game creators are struggling to get by (and some even have other jobs other then PC game making) seems to be more of the scene these days for me than the Major releases...because as I said...almost any Major release on the PC is a poor port of a game created for one of the consoles.  AT least smaller games are made with PC gamers in mind.  But then...when something is a niche, it's not "alive" in relation to what the press or world considers as a "living" system...per se.

[Monte Carlo]

TL;DR

 

But, seriously, what you are trying to say is that AAA big-budget dreck is dead on the PC, and in it's place is a thriving microcosm of smaller games clustered around the digital versions of cottage industries.

 

What's not to like?

[greylord]

TL;DR

 

But, seriously, what you are trying to say is that AAA big-budget dreck is dead on the PC, and in it's place is a thriving microcosm of smaller games clustered around the digital versions of cottage industries.

 

What's not to like?

 

 

That's could be a good summation...actually.

[alanschu]

 

 

But, seriously, what you are trying to say is that AAA big-budget dreck is dead on the PC, and in it's place is a thriving microcosm of smaller games clustered around the digital versions of cottage industries.

 

What's not to like?

 

Evidently he likes, and wants, more of the "AAA" style games.  At least, ones that are exclusive to the PC.

Edited May 27, 2013 by alanschu

[greylord]

 

But, seriously, what you are trying to say is that AAA big-budget dreck is dead on the PC, and in it's place is a thriving microcosm of smaller games clustered around the digital versions of cottage industries.

 

What's not to like?

 

Evidently he likes, and wants, more of the "AAA" style games.  At least, ones that are exclusive to the PC.

 

 

Close.  I'd like games developed specifically for the PC with more variety, but with higher values than many of the smaller game releases that are out these days.  Much as I love the games by paradox who are one of the guys with bigger releases that I play...they are still niche and many times their releases show it.  So, yes...and no.  In a way, I'd like to see it where there was as much variety as the 90s and early 2000s, but with the graphics and gaming advances of the bigger games today.

 

I think there has been so much worry about piracy and DRM that instead of focusing on what is good for PC gaming, instead they've killed it in that regard.  Don't worry, if the analysts are correct, MS is about to bring Console gaming to that realm as well with their next iteration, which is one reason some are concerned that the downward trend in console sales is not going to be saved and pushed up by the next release of consoles...but rather a nail in the coffin for a dying video game industry (yes, there are those who say Console games are dying at this point).

 

Of course, if Console games really do die, than a successful Kickstarter may be the best bet for a videogame future.  The freedom of the 90s and the innovation of those days, but with bigger budgets to be able to make games that are hopefully more like what I'd be looking for.  Kickstarter has it's own perils though, and that actually concerns me as no one seems to be addressing the what ifs.

[pmp10]

In a way, I'd like to see it where there was as much variety as the 90s and early 2000s, but with the graphics and gaming advances of the bigger games today.

But that's impossible if only because those graphics don't come free.

Production values expectations have put industry at a point were no middle ground exists between indie/arcade and AAA. And it's exactly the same story on the consoles.

Nothing is dying because of that - industry has simply changed.