Meanwhile in London: Beheading in broad daylight

[Drowsy Emperor]

I have no idea what the point of a swastika would be anywhere in europe other than as a way to get other people to think yоu're neo nazi.

 

Except this guy:

Photoshop or clueless, we'll never know

[Blarghagh]

Or tasteless "ironic" humor.

[Hurlshort]

Hitler also ruined those little mustaches, why isn't Trashman arguing to bring those back?

[Rosbjerg]

I've actually seen a few Hipsters with those Hitler 'staches.. of course they'd probably insist it's Chaplin inspired.

[Malcador]

Hitler also ruined those little mustaches, why isn't Trashman arguing to bring those back?

Wearing that won't get you thrown in jail or labelled as a villain by people. Also did tarnish Wagner's music a bit too by his association with it.

[Nepenthe]

I feel obliged to point out the irony of opposing the swastika as a symbol of fascism when, say the Seal of the United States Senate still proudly carries the fasces, ie. the etymological root of fascism and it's symbol in Italy.

 

If US iconography had featured the swastika, I'm pretty sure it would similarly have been no big deal. Unfortunately, it was shared only by smaller and/or less visible nations.

 

Edit: e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces#Fasces_in_the_United_States

Edited May 30, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Walsingham]

Nep, everyone knows that Italian fascism was purely for comic effect. Mussolini was an operatic tenor who took things too far during a performance of Tosca.

[Malcador]

And it's just borrowing from the Romans, and Romans are cool.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Romans are the original fascists  The modern Italians are just weak pretenders.

[Malcador]

Hey now, don't speak of Lazio fans that way

[TrashMan]

 

The reality is the Swastika symbolizes something to the SOME world (that pushes it with full force) at the moment, its irrelevant if you personally believe it symbolizes these things. Its a sign of bigotry and fascism. In certain countries you will be arrested for showing this symbol and it won't matter if you say " but the Swastika actually represents Gummi Bears to me"

 

You understand the point around what  the Swastika represents in our modern world?

 

 

F*** the modern world. That's my reply.

 

You say it's irrelevant what I personally believe? But it's relevant what Europse believes and frak everoyne else, right?

Symbols are MULTI-FACETED. They mean different things to differnet poeple. Sometimes at the same time.

 

Trying to enforce only one meaning over all other is in itself fascism.

It's basicly saying "look, I think this symbol is bad. I don't care what it's history is, what it used to mean, nor what cultural signifiance it has anywhere else in the world. I hate it and you shoudl hate it too."

[TrashMan]

It's faintly amusing that you're 'tired' of WW2 and all it's baggage. You want to pretend it never happened and won't happen again? 

 

I suppose you could argue that the poor little thing has a right not to be used as a symbol of race hatred and organised cruelty. But I don't think it does. I think the absurdity of cursing a few right angles is just one of the many things we need to remind us of what happened so that the World never goes down that road again.

 

 

The absurdity is the focus on the symbol, rather than action.

 

It's even more absurd to think that it will hapen again if you don't condemn the symbol.

[BruceVC]

 

 

The reality is the Swastika symbolizes something to the SOME world (that pushes it with full force) at the moment, its irrelevant if you personally believe it symbolizes these things. Its a sign of bigotry and fascism. In certain countries you will be arrested for showing this symbol and it won't matter if you say " but the Swastika actually represents Gummi Bears to me"

 

You understand the point around what  the Swastika represents in our modern world?

 

 

F*** the modern world. That's my reply.

 

You say it's irrelevant what I personally believe? But it's relevant what Europse believes and frak everoyne else, right?

Symbols are MULTI-FACETED. They mean different things to differnet poeple. Sometimes at the same time.

 

Trying to enforce only one meaning over all other is in itself fascism.

It's basicly saying "look, I think this symbol is bad. I don't care what it's history is, what it used to mean, nor what cultural signifiance it has anywhere else in the world. I hate it and you shoudl hate it too."

 

 

Okay so you do accept that the Swastika represents bigotry and  that its offensive to many people?

[Labadal]

Hey now, don't speak of Lazio fans that way

 

Ok, I actually lol'd at that one. 

[TrashMan]

 

Okay so you do accept that the Swastika represents bigotry and  that its offensive to many people?

 

 

And those poeple should do like the rest of us and bear with it.

I find tons of things offensive and oyu dont' see me trying oconser the living s*** out of everyone.

 

I support anynyones freedom to speak their oppinion and love whatever they want - even if it bothers me to no end.

I simply do not have the right to forbid them or consor them. No one should have that right over anyone.

 

 

For example: your avatar. It offends me. Did you stop for a second to think about that? No.

If I tried to force you to remove it would you like it? No.

Edited May 30, 2013 by TrashMan

[Nepenthe]

Nep, everyone knows that Italian fascism was purely for comic effect. Mussolini was an operatic tenor who took things too far during a performance of Tosca.

That and naming the whole idiocy...

[Hurlshort]

I never really looked closely at Bruce's avatar until now.  

[Amentep]

It'll never go away as a symbol of all that came with it, the Jews and white supremacists will see to that.

 

I think eventually it will "go away".

 

Not in our lifetimes - heck there are far too many people alive now who were alive during WWII - or whose parents were - for the symbols of that era to be considered a bygone age.

 

Three of four centuries from now...a millennium*, my guess is that if its recognized at all by anyone outside of major history buffs its for its use in Buddhism or Hinduism.**

 

*assuming we haven't had societal collapse or something.

 

**not necessarily that the history itself would be forgotten, but the power of the symbolism won't last if current history tells us anything.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Amentep

[alanschu]

You don't get to disallow and villify a symbol jsut because you don't like it. Hitler was a bad man. Yes.

 

The swastika is just a symbol and as such has no morality. The only baggage it has is hte one you bring with you.

 

By the same account, you don't get to tell people what associations they make when they see symbols.  Feel free to plaster up a whole bunch of Swastikas on your home exterior, however.  State to all that walk by that you're "taking it back" from the Nazis.

 

 

You can "**** the modern world" all you want, but symbols are very important to humanity (we're using them right now).

 

I can agree that it's unnecessary for "****" to even be censored on this board, but it is.  I can understand why that word specifically is chosen, given the sociohistorical context.

Edited May 30, 2013 by alanschu

[Rostere]

Every type of law is a blunt tool. There are situations I can think up where I could justify a lot of crimes. You must think about the overall effect of the law. Maybe it's good to not intentionally use swastikas even if you can think up a legitimate use. Just because you can come up with one occurence where a swastika would be motivated does not mean that they should be used freely by respectful people.

 

I'm also certain I would not misuse weapons, explosives, radioactive substances and drugs, but just because of that I don't think the laws regarding these should be abolished. Banning the swastika in Germany for example, was just a too simple way of cracking down on Nazi organizations.

[Zoraptor]

Mohammed cartoons. Freedom of speech, essential to be able to express yourself, not offensive to our culture, anyone getting offended is just some radical who should gtfo.
 
Swastika. Symbol of hatred, only racists and nazis want to use it, deeply offensive to our culture, anyone not offended by it is some radical who should gtfo.
 
Truth is of course that if you walk down most any street in Asia with a swastika eyelids will not be batted, its negative connotations were entirely constructed 80 odd years ago by an Austrian meteorist and failed art student. That it was stolen in the first place is offence enough, trying to tie it down as being ultimate symbol of evil!!!! when it simply isn't in anything other than a 'western' context further compounds the offence. India alone has twice the population that would not be offended by a swastika than the entirety of the 'west' that would.

[TrashMan]

 

You don't get to disallow and villify a symbol jsut because you don't like it. Hitler was a bad man. Yes.

 

The swastika is just a symbol and as such has no morality. The only baggage it has is hte one you bring with you.

 

By the same account, you don't get to tell people what associations they make when they see symbols.  Feel free to plaster up a whole bunch of Swastikas on your home exterior, however.  State to all that walk by that you're "taking it back" from the Nazis.

 

You can "**** the modern world" all you want, but symbols are very important to humanity (we're using them right now).

 

I'm not in the buisses of telling people they aren't allowed to do or think X.

 

Unfortunately, that is all people really do in reality. Force their oppinions on eachother if they can.

 

 

I don't get to tell them what associations they make, but I don't want their association (singular) to be forced on me.

[TrashMan]

Every type of law is a blunt tool. There are situations I can think up where I could justify a lot of crimes. You must think about the overall effect of the law. Maybe it's good to not intentionally use swastikas even if you can think up a legitimate use. Just because you can come up with one occurence where a swastika would be motivated does not mean that they should be used freely by respectful people.

 

I'm also certain I would not misuse weapons, explosives, radioactive substances and drugs, but just because of that I don't think the laws regarding these should be abolished. Banning the swastika in Germany for example, was just a too simple way of cracking down on Nazi organizations.

 

 

Your'e eqating a symbol with a deadly weapon?

 

 

B.t.w. - banning a swastika does hack s**** to crack down on such organizations.

They will just use a different or similar one. If anything, you made them HARDER to detect.

[Rostere]

 

Every type of law is a blunt tool. There are situations I can think up where I could justify a lot of crimes. You must think about the overall effect of the law. Maybe it's good to not intentionally use swastikas even if you can think up a legitimate use. Just because you can come up with one occurence where a swastika would be motivated does not mean that they should be used freely by respectful people.

 

I'm also certain I would not misuse weapons, explosives, radioactive substances and drugs, but just because of that I don't think the laws regarding these should be abolished. Banning the swastika in Germany for example, was just a too simple way of cracking down on Nazi organizations.

 

 

Your'e eqating a symbol with a deadly weapon?

 

 

B.t.w. - banning a swastika does hack s**** to crack down on such organizations.

They will just use a different or similar one. If anything, you made them HARDER to detect.

 

 

I'm equating them in the sense that they are banned for the same reason. I'm sure that the people who originally banned swastikas in Germany could think up legitimate situations to use them themselves. Sensitivity to foreign relations probably weighed much heavier though.

 

What I'm really trying to say here is that rules are in practice pragmatic. You can't demand that laws should be idealistic. It's pointless to argue that a law is unfair in a particular case, you will have to argue that the total effect of the law is harmful to society.

 

To compare, I don't like that I can't write about **** Tracy having a ****tail on this forum, but I still think that the censorship might have a positive effect on the tone of discussion.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Okay so you do accept that the Swastika represents bigotry and  that its offensive to many people?

 

 

 

For example: your avatar. It offends me. Did you stop for a second to think about that? No.

If I tried to force you to remove it would you like it? No.

 

 

Trashman I'll gladly change my avatar if you admit that the Swastika is offensive and a sign of bigotry. I don't see my avatar picture in anyway the same as the Swastika but I really don't mind?