Racism, sexism & bigotry

[Auxilius]

@Faerunner

 

That's because we have all being brainwashed by D&D/Forgotten Realms and the global human hegemony it depicts. Something endorsed by other video games where racism was commonplace, like Arcanum or The Witcher. At the end, it's always the same games.

It's also about how fantasy was codified. Humans are average, the middle ground. They adapt to all weathers when dwarfs are in their mountains and elves in their woods. It goes back to Tolkien and it never evolved from there. We also have short lives and breed fast, only matched by gobelins or orcs, and you can see the problem with those ones.

 

I don't know what P:E is aiming for but the core must be changed if Obs does not want to be seen as generic as the same. Maybe tweak the races a little. Since dwarves are stronger, if they happened to breed faster and colonize some lands over mountains, they could be the dominant specie. Just saying.

 

But yeah, the title of "honorary human" would make me grind my teeth more than anything, if only because it proves the villagers are still racist twats, who just can't understand elves can do good too.

[Nonek]

One of my oldest pen and paper settings had the dwarven people, long ago having formed communities on the surface, rise up to form an empire somewhat similar to Rome. Their low birth rate also made their womenfolk extremely valuable to them, and thus the natural leaders of the empire, whom it was forbidden by tradition and law to kill or even injure. Quite an interesting setting, had humans slowly evolving in their prehistoric wald, elves were weird former celestials and orcs an experiment of theirs gone awry.

 

Could be worse titles, I mean "honourary elf" that's war talk.

 

I would say the verisimilitude of the setting benefits from a sysytem that identifies and reacts to your sex, race and most importantly by the sounds of Eternity culture. One imagines that the Vaillians view the residents of the Dyrwood with contempt, bordering on hatred after the Saint Waidwen incident.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Nonek

[Lurky]

That would certainly be interesting to see, yeah. Though I'm not sure if there will be a dominant culture in the region we'll explore in the game, which would make for a more balanced approach for all races, where various cities and places have each their own bias for a race (except orlans, everyone seems to be biased against them).

 

But if there is a dominant culture, it would be interesting to see it be non-human, yeah. How about the aumaua? They're big and tough, and they're one of the new races, so no preconceptions about them. They seem to dwell mostly in regions close to water, though. Bummer.

 

In any case, it seems unlikely that they will go for the most overt forms of bigotry. There probably won't be "human-only", "elf-only", "men-only", "women-only" shops. Maybe there will be "no orlans allowed" shops, and pile these issues only on that race. I'm not sure how they could balance that though, because even the Nosferatu could shop in stores without problems (and the shop owners would be like "hey, cool disguise", and let you shop like it's the most normal thing of the world). Perhaps all the important NPCs of the cities you encounter should be conveniently tolerant, too. Or maybe the shop owners could be orlans themselves, who have to grudgingly sell to everyone because business is business, but give lower prices if the PC is an orlan too. That could be one way to balance it.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lurky

[Nonek]

Quite a few of the pre-eminent powers on Earth have been naval ones however.

[Giantevilhead]

I think bigotry is best used in fiction when it's developed as a way of showing the darker impulses within ourselves. None of us would like to believe that we would be capable of the kinds of horrible acts that are attributed to prejudice or bigotry. When we hear of people forming into brutal mobs to lynch people or people supporting a dictator who's advocating for genocide, we'd like to think to ourselves, "I would never be like that. I can never join a group that attacks or kills people based on race or sex or ethnicity." But the sad truth is that just about everyone is susceptible to those kinds of prejudices and mob mentality. We just like to think of the people who fall under that kind of influence as being mindless sheep because if we admit that they're reasonable intelligent people like us then we'd also have to admit to the fact that we're vulnerable to that kind of influence as well.

 

So if bigotry, sexism, and racism is to be explored in this game, I don't want a bunch of mustache twirling villains who are racist just so you'd have another motivation to kill them. I want those characters to have depth and nuance. I would like an exploration into how those people developed those beliefs. I would like the game to challenge the player and make us consider that just maybe, we might do the same thing as those characters in similar circumstances.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Giantevilhead

[Karkarov]

I am not voting either way but sexism, racism, and bigotry when used correctly can help build a believable world and weave a good story.  If they want to use those elements in the game Obsidian will, and I am sure they will handle it well. 

 

As for... "Why do humans always come out on top?" 

 

Well in a logical explanation I would say because they are smarter than orcs, breed more often than elves and dwarves, but aren't as close minded and self interested as the other races and far more interested in expansion.  Meaning they don't sit around doing nothing a lot of the time and there are more of them than most other races.  Orcs have many common traits with humans their society just tends to not be very ... progressive and often they aren't as mentally developed.

 

The other way of looking at it is this.  I don't care who you are, the person buying the game is a human.  I don't believe for one second you identify with yourself as an elf in the real world so fantasy or not more people will be attracted to the idea that humans win everyone else loses than others.  This could lead to more purchases due to the power fantasy aspect.  Also.... maybe it is just me but I don't see any fantasy dwarves, elves, orcs, gnomes, or anything else running around in the real world.  So it is a might bit more realistic too.  Not to mention it is easier to relate to something you actually are in reality than something you are not.

[cleric Nemir]

You all seem to forget a key argument in this "problem". A world of fantasy RPG is NOT similar to our own dark and medieval times. If a female sorcerer that can easily burn down half of town is being provoked in such a world,only thing that can happen is - a half of town is destroyed. And we are not talking about ONE female. A world of monsters and magically tainted individuals would be turned to a world of chaos if such stereotypes existed.  So either a setting is a world of chaos or a world where someone watches their mouth lest be purged or raided together with his whole family,friends etc.

Only game that had the bigotry implementation well done is Lionheart,and it should be clear to all familiar with this game why such setting was at place in that world,and herefore why it isn't to our future-to-be world of P:E.

Now let us proceed.

[Faerunner]

@Faerunner

 

That's because we have all being brainwashed by D&D/Forgotten Realms and the global human hegemony it depicts. Something endorsed by other video games where racism was commonplace, like Arcanum or The Witcher. At the end, it's always the same games.

It's also about how fantasy was codified. Humans are average, the middle ground. They adapt to all weathers when dwarfs are in their mountains and elves in their woods. It goes back to Tolkien and it never evolved from there. We also have short lives and breed fast, only matched by gobelins or orcs, and you can see the problem with those ones.

 

I don't know what P:E is aiming for but the core must be changed if Obs does not want to be seen as generic as the same. Maybe tweak the races a little. Since dwarves are stronger, if they happened to breed faster and colonize some lands over mountains, they could be the dominant specie. Just saying.

 

But yeah, the title of "honorary human" would make me grind my teeth more than anything, if only because it proves the villagers are still racist twats, who just can't understand elves can do good too.

 

I agree, and I know that Tolkien set the tone for worlds where humans are an emerging surface power while elves and dwarves are dwindling. Too often the standard in fantasy games seems to be the tired old formula of humans being at the top and other races petering out. What I question is why people mindlessly follow and copy the formula rather than questioning or tweaking it, as you've said.

 

I am not voting either way but sexism, racism, and bigotry when used correctly can help build a believable world and weave a good story.  If they want to use those elements in the game Obsidian will, and I am sure they will handle it well. 

 

As for... "Why do humans always come out on top?" 

 

Well in a logical explanation I would say because they are smarter than orcs, breed more often than elves and dwarves, but aren't as close minded and self interested as the other races and far more interested in expansion.  Meaning they don't sit around doing nothing a lot of the time and there are more of them than most other races.  Orcs have many common traits with humans their society just tends to not be very ... progressive and often they aren't as mentally developed.

 

At the risk of sounding offensive... have you looked around? Humans are pretty closed-minded and self-interested in real life too. Even if that were not the case, these fantasy worlds, cultures and races are works of fiction. A fantasy author can choose to depict other races as smarter, faster breeders, less self-interested, more open-minded and/or more interested in expansion too. Those traits do not necessarily have to be exclusive to humans, and fantasy races do not have to have traits that conveniently place them at the bottom. (Though I still question some of those traits resulting in those places, like humans dominating elves just because they're faster breeders, as simply being faster breeders don't place orcs or goblins above humans.) As Auxilious implied, it's just the way Tolkien chose to depict them and it's the way most fantasy writers and fans alike have chosen to copy, rather than questioning or tweaking it. 

 

The other way of looking at it is this.  I don't care who you are, the person buying the game is a human.  I don't believe for one second you identify with yourself as an elf in the real world so fantasy or not more people will be attracted to the idea that humans win everyone else loses than others.  This could lead to more purchases due to the power fantasy aspect.  Also.... maybe it is just me but I don't see any fantasy dwarves, elves, orcs, gnomes, or anything else running around in the real world.  So it is a might bit more realistic too.  Not to mention it is easier to relate to something you actually are in reality than something you are not.

 

Another way of looking at it is that we know these fantasy races don't exist in real life and so part of the fun is interacting with and playing as them in these fantasy games. One appeal of role-playing is being someone you can't be in real life. We can all be human (obviously), but we can't be orlan, elves, dwarves, aumaua or godlike. Part of the fun of race options is being those races, yet constantly having humanity's superiority shoved in our faces can take the fun out of it. I know all the players are human, but will the vast majority really go in expecting to play male humans and enjoy the "power fantasy" of lording over women and other races? Should they even be pandered to? Is it worth it to add overt racism and sexism to pander to male human players' desire for dominance (which sounds like a desire to have an outlet for real racist and sexist feelings and therefore should be presented in a way that makes them question their feelings rather than mindlessly act on) at the expense of female and non-human playing characters' enjoyment?

 

Again, I'm not saying prejudice should not exist at all. I think it can be interesting if handled well, I think Obsidian will handle it well, and I think overcoming socially-imposed obstacles can feel very empowering for female and minority race players. But I question voting for the same level of racism and sexism in P:E as in The Witcher and Dragon Age, keeping in mind that the protagonist for the former was a male human (though with prejudice of his own to deal with as a witcher) and the later has been human only after the first game due to the majority of players finding the racism unrewarding (surprise surprise). 

 

At the end of the game, would the players who benefit from overt racism and sexism be players on the receiving end or the giving end? And are the people advocating for overt racism and sexism doing so because they want to play characters on the receiving end, or the giving end? It's a question I keep asking because I want people to think about it rather than mindlessly repeating "We should have sexism against women and racism against non-humans." For what purpose? If the purpose is indeed to have a "power fantasy," as you have very helpfully put it, I think the topic should be discussed on the forums and presented in the games (if it is presented at all) in a way that makes people question their desires rather than just pandering to it. I agree with Auxilious, Lurky and other posters on this forum that fantastic bigotry, if it is in the game, should be presented in a way that is subtle, balanced, insightful, and makes people to think about the reasons behind it rather than just having it. 

 

EDIT: Sorry, I'm still getting used to MultiQuote.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Faerunner

[Micamo]

I agree, and I know that Tolkien set the tone for worlds where humans are an emerging surface power while elves and dwarves are dwindling. Too often the standard in fantasy games seems to be the tired old formula of humans being at the top and other races petering out. What I question is why people mindlessly follow and copy the formula rather than questioning or tweaking it, as you've said.

 

A big problem is that in the world of AAA development you have to have broad audience appeal in order to sell enough copies to make your money back, and this means audience alienation is a big concern for publishers. If you try to take a setting like Dark Sun or Carcosa or something and pitch it to your average AAA publisher, they'll laugh you right out the door. And until recently you were stuck with publishers if you wanted to make an RPG since indies can't get the budget needed to make something of the scale fans expect. This is why it took Kickstarter to get a sequel for Torment, and at least part of the reason why Ps:T didn't sell very well. Let's face it, most folk are perfectly happy with Tolkienian* norms and have no particular interest in changing them; People like us who want the weird stuff are in the minority.

 

*I should say Faerunian norms, since the modern fantasy setting template has more resemblance to the Realms than anything in Tolkien.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Micamo

[Failion]

 

Sexism? I think that is undeveloped in media. Somewhat taboo on the level as pedophilia. keep that in real life. Lol imagine a quest involving a woman suing for sexual harassment and the player taking sides.

I... I genuinely do not understand what you just said. I mean, I understand the words, but the point escapes me entirely. Please clarify?

 

What I meant from what I seen in video games involving sexism nothing has impressed me so far. In fact Disneys mulan is the only media where I found it to be entertaining. Racism is always a interesting concept. People like to think America and slavery, nazi racism was as hard as it gets. But real life medival racism was mindblowing hillybilly beatdown redneck hardcore  . Since people did not move around much and lived in small towns and villages. If a stranger from another town/village made a bad impression there would be a lot of hate and name calling going on, despite being the same ethnic group, culture etc. However mideval fantasy tends to be pretty liberal when it comes to the potrayel of these things even games like witcher and whatever. Truth is stranger then fiction.

[PrimeJunta]

No offense, I'm not surprised that when people call for racism in a fantasy setting, they mean for humans to be on top of the social hierarchy. It's just become so common to depict and so predictable to request that it's driving me to question why. Why should races like humans get clear social and economic advantages like "luxurious shops" and lifestyles while races like elves and orlan only get "grubby pawnshops?" Why should other races strive to be "honorary humans" for social or economic gain, rather than humans striving to be honorary elves, dwarves, aumaua, etc?

 

I keep seeing people call for racism and sexism, but almost never toward humans or men. The request seems to be for clear in-game disadvantages to characters of some races (like insulting comments, higher prices, quest denial, being barred from "luxurious" shops and honorable institutions) with clear advantages to others (humans might be barred from some "grubby orlan pawnshops," but since those would theoretically offer such undesirable equipment, it would be nothing to cry over). Unless there would be clear in-game advantages and disadvantages to both sides (humans being denied shops that carry amazing magical items and equipment reserved only for elves or orlan as well as elves/orlan being denied "luxurious shops" with theoretical great equipment, humans needing to be "honorary orlan/elf/aumaua" in certain places, etc) I don't see who really benefits from the system.

 

Good point. In my particular case, I assumed humans would be on top because of what Obsidian has told us about the world of P:E. They specifically mentioned that orlans are subject to prejudice and discrimination, and that Vailians – the most technologically advanced, richest, and most expansive civilization – are human. I would be very interested to play a game set in, say, a gynarchy. It would be an interesting way to explore this stuff from a different angle.

 

However, the point I attempted to make was pretty much the same you're making. I.e., that it's fine for the world to be prejudiced, but it's not fine for the game to be the same. The game could do this in any of a number of ways. IMO the best way would be to give each race/sex/whatever broad advantages in some circumstances and broad disadvantages in others. For example, assume that orlans are subject to discrimination. So then make a part of the game take place in a Vailian city, and another equally developed part in an orlan village. How will the humans treat the orlans? How will the orlans treat the humans? Maybe the human will find himself treated as a mark, a cop, or a tourist, and will have to fight a real uphill battle to get the locals to cooperate at all.

Personally I'm not really that concerned about stuff, as in, "getting the best." In any case most "stuff" in games like this is either crafted or found adventuring. I don't think it'd be an unbalancing advantage for, say, humans to have access to better merchants. That would be quite easy to balance out, say by giving the orlans some cool racial special abilities, or access to those grubby pawnshops which turn out sell the best poisons and the hottest stolen stuff under the counter.

 

But yeah good point about humans and men always being the majority. It would be cool to see that assumption flipped. I hope someone soon does that. T:ToN perhaps?

[PrimeJunta]

You all seem to forget a key argument in this "problem". A world of fantasy RPG is NOT similar to our own dark and medieval times. If a female sorcerer that can easily burn down half of town is being provoked in such a world,only thing that can happen is - a half of town is destroyed. And we are not talking about ONE female. A world of monsters and magically tainted individuals would be turned to a world of chaos if such stereotypes existed.  So either a setting is a world of chaos or a world where someone watches their mouth lest be purged or raided together with his whole family,friends etc.

Only game that had the bigotry implementation well done is Lionheart,and it should be clear to all familiar with this game why such setting was at place in that world,and herefore why it isn't to our future-to-be world of P:E.

Now let us proceed.

 

Or, of course, a bunch of templars and wizards could band together and burn her at the stake.

[Merlkir]

The witcher setting has pretty powerful female mages, in fact more of them are important in the story than male mages. And they don't suddenly make filthy peasants respect all women. People simply fear and respect power.

 

BTW, some posts about the horrors of bigotry in medieval times seem to be quite a bit off. The idea that absolutely everyone was bigoted in many ways and strangers would get the **** kicked out of them for coming too close to a village especially is an odd extreme. It's never good to generalize too much, there were many times from antiquity to the middle ages when pilgrims were very common and it was quite possible to travel all around the world quite safely. People always have been curious about strangers, news from other lands (even a few miles away! no internet in those days), hospitality used to be a sacred custom.

 

It wasn't all black mud and plague everywhere.

[cleric Nemir]

Magically potent individuals,their groups,orders,factions fighting all over the place because of racist sexual and other discrimination is chaos. Why would a bunch of wizards discriminate women instead of welcoming another talent to their rank? Unless Terry Pratchett is assigned on the game.. Yet even ole Terry explained best what happens when wizards start fighting - a lesson you need learn only once.

Unless the setting of a world is chaotic,levels of intolerance should be minimal to none.

>sigh< I do not think it is a good idea to restrict our characters in such manner,or any at all. Neither should I said anything more than this,yes,all things can be argued,I am aware,have my answer to the thread and leave it at that.

[PrimeJunta]

Technologically potent individuals, their groups, orders, factions fighting all over the place because fo racist sexual and other discrimination is chaos. Why would a bunch of nerds discriminate women instead of welcoming another talent to their rank?

 

... Oh.

[Merlkir]

Oh god, please, not this again. 

[cleric Nemir]

Technologically potent individuals, their groups, orders, factions fighting all over the place because fo racist sexual and other discrimination is chaos. Why would a bunch of nerds discriminate women instead of welcoming another talent to their rank?

 

... Oh.

AHAHAHAH,I like you already.

Ok,see,this is what we mostly do here - argue over our opinions and differences instead of trying to find universal solutions. Arguing can take forever,I wanna see some solutions that everyone can agree upon. Yet I get carried  away,like all.. 

[motorizer]

They can reverse it and make it sexist against men and racist against humans as far as I'm concerned, I don't mind either way, but I don't want a homogenous sanitised world where everyone is treated the same and race and gender choice means nothing and gains or loses nothing. Why even add races if you're going to do that?

 

Boooring...

Edited May 19, 2013 by motorizer

[Elerond]

If I have understood correctly, then all major cultures in PE are multiracial by nature, so racism should not be necessarily directed towards race of character but ethnic heritage of the character and physical traits of the character. For example orlans have been victimized and marginalized because of their size and because they aren't orginal members of any of the major cultures (I have understood correctly) and godlike people born different looking, which is why some cultures discriminate against them and some cultures worship them.

 

In my understanding Drywood is cultural mixing pot because of major cultures colonialistic expansion to the area and native cultures that you can find in there, so there is lot of oportunitys for ethnic based racism and bigotry without going typical fantasy route, where elves and dwarfs have old grudge against each other, humans are self centered and despise other races are minor and are looked down by other races. So for example all Vailians, elves, dwarfes, humans, godlikes, aumauas and orlans, look down native inhabitants of the Drywood and probably in some extent other major cultures.

[Nonek]

Hear hear, personally I plan to play as an ugly Godlike Cipher, with foul body odour, halitosis, salty language, crude mannerisms and utterly hideous facial and body deformity. I look forward to being despised and reviled in equal measures, a good disguise for my fearsome mental powers. I don't want a Dragon Age situation where everybody treats you as the second coming of Christ, no matter what you look like, such blatant power fantasies are as you say clumsy and make for a boring, lifeless setting and protagonist. As i've said before a modern day renaissance fayre, rather than a nicely fleshed out believable world.

 

Here's a thought for those who don't want anything but adulation from all and sundry and never want to face any kind of hostility or prejudice, invest in a beauty statistic if one has it. It worked in Arcanum, get your beauty high enough and even the usual stuck up elf would adore your half orc character. Plus a lot of people always craft pretty characters for whatever reason, maybe as a break from the mediocrity of their own appearances, so reflect that in a statistical fashion. Just a thought.

[motorizer]

Not a bad idea on the beauty stat, though that in itself might provoke attention (wanted and unwanted) from the opposite sex

[Nonek]

Yes, a rather nice penalty to go with the obvious bonuses, and how quickly will adulation turn to hatred in the fickle hearts of the men and women who pursue the beautiful protagonist, on the strength of their looks alone. With enough charisma and cunning added to this beauty, one can imagine even crude approaches being turned to the protagonists advantage however, so that the character can play as a believable manipulator and leader of men.

 

I forgot, didn't Josh mention the possibility of prejudice based on the strength of an individuals soul. That's a whole other aspect to this debate, when dislike and hatred goes beyond the merely physical, to embrace the metaphysical and perhaps "true" core of a person. Wonder how that could play out.

 

Edit: Thinking about it further, if a soul is born into both female and male bodies throughout the wheel of rebirth, could this be a legitimate way of discarding sexism in the setting? Or would the flawed nature of humanity look only to the short term flesh, and what is before them?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Nonek

[Karkarov]

At the risk of sounding offensive... have you looked around? Humans are pretty closed-minded and self-interested in real life too. Even if that were not the case, these fantasy worlds, cultures and races are works of fiction. A fantasy author can choose to depict other races as smarter, faster breeders, less self-interested, more open-minded and/or more interested in expansion too. Those traits do not necessarily have to be exclusive to humans, and fantasy races do not have to have traits that conveniently place them at the bottom. (Though I still question some of those traits resulting in those places, like humans dominating elves just because they're faster breeders, as simply being faster breeders don't place orcs or goblins above humans.) As Auxilious implied, it's just the way Tolkien chose to depict them and it's the way most fantasy writers and fans alike have chosen to copy, rather than questioning or tweaking it.

You don't sound offensive you just need to read for meaning.  I am not saying humans are nice people, in fact, humans win in most fantasy worlds because they are not nice people.  When I said close minded and self interested I was referring to things like Dwarves refusal to live outside of mountains or underground cities, Elves who are happy to spend a decade doing nothing but tending a forest pasture, gnomes who can't be bothered to actually try using their inventions only inventing them in the first place or only using them for the exact purpose they were invented for.

 

A Human won't just sit in his garden for 10 years, he will go do "something else" sooner or later.  Humans are not content living in only one environment.  Humans when they find a cool invention start trying to use it for other things too, or even improve on it.  Also humans LOVE expansion and getting bigger.  Basically humans are never "content", elves don't have this problem.  Dwarves are never really "content" either but they are stereotypically only focused on gold and or jewels, not land, political power, magic, technology (other than mining tech), etc etc.

 

Humans want it all and aren't willing to take no for an answer.  Elves and the other races don't want it all. They lose off of a lack of initiative and numbers alone.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Karkarov

[Nonek]

The fear of death driving us? Our limited lifespan is a boon to ambition, while the elder races have the luxury of time on their side, and thus less drive? Could be considered an interesting culture clash, in the Knight of Swords the Vadhagh are amazed that the species of Mabden have evolved so quickly from the ape like creatures they studied a few centuries passed.

[PrimeJunta]

At least for Tolkien's elves and dwarves it looks like plain ol' birthrate, rather than lack of ambition or somesuch. In fact the main overarching story for his elves was the rebellion and exile of the Noldor. They set out from the safety and glory of Valinor to carve out kingdoms for themselves in the broad lands of Middle-Earth, against the will of the Valar. The sons of Fëanor were in it for the Silmarils of course, but Galadriel and many who followed her did it out of ambition and other very "human-like" motives. 

 

OTOH his elves seemed to produce roughly the same number of offspring as humans, but over a much, much longer time period as they were biologically immortal. (Círdan the Shipwright of the Grey Havens was one of the first generation of elves, for example – he wasn't born, but awoke at Cuiviénen.) That means that humans would outbreed them by a factor of ten or more. That means that over a couple of centuries they're effectively screwed unless they adopt a pest control type strategy before it's too late.