stronghold ideas

[jamoecw]

so obsidian probably already knows how they want to do their stronghold, and i am probably wasting my breath (so to speak), but hey why not kick out ideas?

 

so you meet some villager asking for help against a group bandits/orc horde while its lord is off in a war, after haggling over the reward for helping the village you go to it and spend some time building up defenses, performing recon, or heading off for a preemptive strike.  after the bandit/orc forces are defeated a messenger arrives informing the elder that the lord of the nearby keep that the village owes its allegiance has been slain and that another lord, which has a malevolent reputation is going to absorb the keep's lands into his own.  the villagers, unhappy over the news, are divided over what to do.  you can convince them to follow you as the new lord, hopefully buying enough time to legitimize your claim over the land. you can suggest they take their chances as an independent region and fight off the unwanted lord, maybe with your help.  finally you can convince them to accept this new lord without opposition.  depending on which choice you went with, you might either get the keep as a rightful lord, and now have to play some politics in order to avoid all out war (or just build up for all out war).  you can become a military leader of a new nation (possibly still under a king of some sort), not having to worry about politics, just building defenses and such (assuming you decided to help them out, otherwise you'd just wash your hands of them).  the usurper might grant you the keep as a reward for your role in 'protecting' his land and rights to it, occasionally asking you to carry out despicable acts for him.  whichever path you took (as long as you got the keep), you can build it up as a fortress, or a wizard tower, or some such.  dumping money into it and into the village (how you can dump money into the village depends on the path you chose), in order to build it up how you see fit.  ultimately your choices will come to a major test, depending on several factors.  maybe if you were successful in legitimizing your claim an inspector of sorts come to see how happy the people are, and how well you have cared for them, depending on which political alliances you have secured could emphasize some aspects over others (education, economy, defenses, etc.).  if you failed to legitimize your claim an alliance of forces marches against you, the bigger the failure the bigger the alliance, all headed by the usurper.  if you went the independent route, you would have to face the usurper much sooner, but without his allies, after which he keeps sending raiding parties, you either have to defeat him at his own castle, lead his own holdings into uprising, or withstand a final siege against a giant force.  if you went the path of backing the usurper a party of adventurers emerges to fight against you, and you have to hunt them down and either convince them to leave you alone, or kill them.

 

so it starts out very seven samurai, then becomes more of a stronghold continual/epic quest thing.

 

so what do you guys think?  any ideas of your own on strongholds and such of your own to share?

[Micamo]

Actually, since the stronghold is basically explicitly going to be based on Crossroad Keep, here's one lession I hope Obsidian learns from that game: Screw the friggin time limits on crap.

 

- It's extremely unintuitive and meta-gamey in how it works.

 

- It's very possible to accidentally screw yourself over because you're not doing it efficiently, especially because the way the time limit works is so opaque. It shouldn't matter what order you go around in building stuff and developing your troops, and it shouldn't penalize you if you just want to walk around the keep and look at the place without giving new orders to your subordinates.

 

- It serves literally no purpose except to limit how much time you can spend dicking around the keep before you have to get back to doing the stupid, boring main quest chain. Dear Obsidian: If the "problem" with your side content is the players find it more entertaining than the main content, the solution is certainly not to forcibly drag them away from the side content and back to the main content, kicking and screaming. Let your players find their own engagement in the game. (I strongly suspect this happened in NWN2 because Crossroad Keep was tied into the plot, and with any luck Eternity's stronghold will be entirely optional.)

 

Actually, now that I think about it, a couple more suggestions:

 

- There's surprisingly little to actually do at Crossroad Keep if you're not building stuff (or if you've reached your time limit), and few of your companions have anything new to say once you get there. Giving your companions new dialogue options there and putting some NPCs around for you to chat up would have gone a long, long way to making the keep feel much more immersive.

 

- I always thought it was kinda weird that you can't accompany your troops yourself on the special missions you send them on. It shouldn't be required, obviously, but I feel like this could have really enhanced the game if you were at least allowed to do it: Like that halfling village you can send troops to to help defend against a bandit raid. Also, I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought following Daerrn and his group of adventurous kids around would have been much more entertaining than the King of Shadows crap.

[Sensuki]

I'm interested in what storyline will lead to you acquiring / defending such significant real estate.

 

Would be cool if there's a few different ways to acquire it too I suppose.

 

Couple of suggestions:

 

Factional reputation could (or should) be tied into who disputes/attacks your Stronghold. Several quests/missions might be to mitigate claims by people from other factions. There's all sorts of stuff you could do with this: Bribery/Blackmail, Assassination, Do (a or several) favors for the POI/Faction in order for them to support or accept your holdings of the property.

 

You might be able to call on people that you've helped over the course of the game to assist you in protecting your Stronghold as well.

 

I remember that Slavery is possible in the Dyrwood (from memory): so that's something to take into consideration as well.

 

CNPCs that you've scorned could be involved in opposing you here as well (if not in other parts of the story).

[WotanAnubis]

The most important part of a Stronghold, besides having a place to store your stuff and party members, is interior decoration.

 

I'm basically imagining a cross between Alpha Protocol and Skies of Arcadia here.

 

 

Alpha Protocol, in that, over time, you will all kinds of mementos as a result of finishing quests which will then be on display at your keep. Let's say, for example, some art collector's manor got burgled, you hunt down the thieves, return the loot and the art collector gives you a painting out of gratitude. That painting should then grace one of the walls of your keep.

 

Skies of Arcadia in that, while I wouldn't want to micromanage every single piece of furniture, it would be nice to give the place a bit of personality. In Skies you eventually recruited two builders who could give your base a certain look (one builder made everything look Western European and the other made everything look Asian because they came from the game's not!Europe and not!Japan respectively). Since Project Eternity will have a different cultures with different aesthetic senses, it would be nice to hire or recruit architects and decorators from different cultural backgrounds to liven up your keep a bit. The ability to mix-and-match is a must, of course.

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

Well, a few ideas regarding the furniture and that stuff:

 

- A library(though I think some dev mentioned this already) that might help with things like lore checks(if they're implemented) if there's a collection on tomes and scrolls there.

 

- A treasury room, so that some of the players valuables might be stored in a vault of a kind, and possibly if there are any incomes from the stronghold, it'd be the place they'd end up.

 

- Some sort of an art hall, so that if the player decides to be an art supporter, it would be possible to throw money to gain statues and painting and maybe murals and all that to cheer up those grey stone walls.

 

- A "throne room", with the lack of a better word, as to have a place to receive people who have business with you, and maybe give the player quests.

 

And then, what comes to populating the stronghold:

 

- Strongholds own resident smith(y), quite a reasonable add, that would provide a shop within the stronghold within the lines of common sense. 

 

- Guards maybe, affiliated with the faction the players sides with(assuming that there's a side to choose by must) or just plain mercenaries so that the stronghold won't seem as abandoned. 

 

- Servants, though this is a big maybe, as I can't see any other use to them than the purely aesthetic ones, and of course being a money sink, as having servants would logically reduce the income(if there is any that is) in the form of paying them.

 

- Musicians to occupy a hall or another, giving the place a different soundtrack entirely with some cost.

[JFSOCC]

I would love to have my own sub-tropical port city.

Let's say this would fit the Dragoling Trading Empire, or the Church of Hezeng. The city would have two levels, the "top" is where the castle and fortifications are, and can only be reached by lift, or overland. it's basically on top of the sheer white cliff. (in which there are quarried homes as well)

The cliff itself is about about 20 stories high

 

the "bottom" is a 500-700 yard plain extending from the cliff towards the sea. this is the city and the deepwater docks.

The shape of the settlement is like a "C" with a lighthouse and a fortified tower on each end. (so a protected harbour)

 

there's a river cutting through the "top" level which ends in a waterfall splitting the settlement unevenly. The river created the small plain (otherwise it would be deep water only) but the silt this carries is a chronic problem for the bay.

 

The "top" level extends outwards over a large plain which thanks to the river is irrigated. From the bottom level there is a narrow gulley on the north side (as per C shape) which allows some foot traffic to avoid the lifts.

 

The Palace/Castle overlooks the city from the south/southwest side of the "C" and has access to a tributary from the river (or a small meandering canal)

 

It is a trade city, where space is at a premium, and the cliffs themselves are being dug in to provide homes and businesses. the "underground bazaar" is a small marvel of lights and smells and fairly high domed subterranean marketplaces.

 

Just outside the "C" there is a small island, from which the guard fleet operates to defend the city and incoming trade fleets from pirates or other foes. On top of the islet is a small barracks and fortification, effectively splitting the entrance to the protected harbour.

----------

This is mostly after you've cleared the harbour of silt, rebuilt the docks, rebuilt the lighthouse, rebuilt the fortifications, recruited a small fleet to defend your harbour, dug the canal to your castle, built the castle, built the lifts, and built the road next to the river to connect up with the main roads towards one of the Big Big Cities, and convinced sea trade and land trade that your port city is an excellent and safe trade hub.

 

Its major weakness would be a lack of natural defences from the top-side plains. I suppose you can always build a wall.

Edited May 12, 2013 by JFSOCC

[Nonek]

Personally what i'd like to see is a realistic implementation of the stronghold into the gameworld, if the protagonist accepts the land, titles and duties that come with that fortress then he is in effect placing himself in a position of subservience and dominance, subservience to his feudal lord and dominance over the people and chattels who worked and live upon his land. Thus requests from his liege lord cannot be ignored, and the laws of the land cannot be overturned without consequence.

 

Thus we see the player immersed into the laws, obligations and duties of his position, rather than just having a consequenceless treasure room. Politics suddenly becomes a paramount issue: How does one turn away that zealous inquisitor intent on rooting out evil and the ungodly in your land, the church is a strong ally and a dreadful foe. The kings taxes that you administer the collecting and safeguarding of, what actions do you take against bandits, tax dodgers, and willful non payers. While that gold sits in your vaults will it remain untouched or will a little slip away, through creative accounting, sticky fingered servants or greedy collectors.

 

What of bordering nations, and discontented potentates within ones own realm? The player may be courted by them or their emissaries, promised wealth and further titles for either military support, or willful ignorance of troop and logistical movements being conducted on their lands. Does the lord remain loyal to his feudal betters, or betray them to neighbours and powerseekers, and what will his tennants and brother nobles think of his actions. If his plotting should become known, and his conspirators are overthrown, can he expect anything but the loss of titles and land or else face siege and possible annihilation.

 

What of war? The nobleman is exempt from taxation, the wealth he gains from the rents of those working his land and conducting business in his demense is entirely his, but this comes at a price. He must raise levies, and help his feudal master in the pursuit of warfare against the states enemies, even if they are not his enemies, lest he be labelled traitor and coward. Does he do so, and will he personally go to war at his masters bidding, perhaps gaining renown and fame, or just a heavy heart at the pointless slaughter of able men and women in the meat grinder of medieval melee.

 

All this and more, such as trial by combat for matters of law, the risk of unionisation among his workers, the spread of plague and sickness among his people, the security of his demense, the more mundane matter of judgement etcetera, etcetera.

 

Edit: Also what of a peasants rebellion, some charismatic Wat Tyler arises among the common folk demanding equality and liberty for all. Does the player support this movement, which demands that all his titles and lands be taken away, by force if necessary. That the nobility are not better because of divine right, or the quality of their souls, but are the same as all other men and should be cast down from their thrones of luxury, thrones built upon the slavery and toil of others. Will the player support freedom, or his own hard won luxury, that would be an interesting dilemna.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Nonek

[JFSOCC]

Personally what i'd like to see is a realistic implementation of the stronghold into the gameworld, if the protagonist accepts the land, titles and duties that come with that fortress then he is in effect placing himself in a position of subservience and dominance, subservience to his feudal lord and dominance over the people and chattels who worked and live upon his land. Thus requests from his liege lord cannot be ignored, and the laws of the land cannot be overturned without consequence.

great post overall, but I'm not sure if we're going to see a feudal system, and since the game takes place in a colonial setting, you could set up your own colonial establishment. I know the Dutch Crown didn't care much about what the Dutch East Indies Company did in Indonesia, as long as the the taxes kept flowing home. So you could have pretty much a despot's rule, in certain circumstances.

[Nonek]

I agree that we might well be taking the part of nabobs upon the expanding frontier, but eventually there will be competition, the imposition of royal authority and hopefully discontent among the natives. Such a position will not go unobserved or unchallenged for long, and that's a good thing in my opinion, the game of thrones (even in such a low position as the player will inhabit) can be very thrilling and dynamic. Of course we should have the opportunity to master our demense, but the methods of that domination are what I find to be interesting.

 

Edit: Personally i'm hoping for a situation as intriguing as that presented in the Mission, with Spain and Portugal eroding the natives last chance of integration with their conquerors through the Jesuit missions. So that slavery and efficient plantations may be taken over, imperial secular authority be reinforced, and papal authority diminished.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Nonek

[Durinax]

You guys make it sound as if your being forced to be a vassal lord or something, if anything like that is true I demand the opportunity to raise an army and revolt!

[Giantevilhead]

First order of business as Lord, the arcane practice of slavery shall be banned, and all former slaves shall be granted the title of "intern."

[Spiritofpower]

I personally think the best overall route would be to have the stronghold essentially be a big, fancy house with a bunch of special features. As awesome as it would be to become embroiled in the politics of Dyrwood or wherever, doing such a quest-line justice would require it be essentially a secondary main quest in terms of length and time investment, which would detract from the actual main quest.

 

Not to mention if I have to deal with the delicate balancing act of relationships with other lords and toadying to the king that feudalism was, I'd like at least the option to say "Screw this ****" and declare independence, which is basically guaranteed to have massive political repercussions and would be all but certain to cause massive changes in the main quest. Not saying such a quest-line can't be done well, just that doing it well is likely a bit too much of an undertaking to fit in the main game on top of everything else. If Obsidian can do it justice without taking away attention from the main quest, by all means, go for it. But otherwise, I'd prefer it if the political intrigue and drama was saved until the expansion(s).

[rjshae]

Something they could do with the Stronghold is give it one or more reputation scores; the choices you make in building up various elements of the stronghold would modify some of your reputations with different factions. For example, adding a library and a mage tower would improve your rep. with the imperial wizardry guild. You could also get visits from guests based upon your highest reputation scores.

[Nonek]

Yes it's more than possible that i'm asking for too much importance to be placed on the stronghold, and its implementation into the gameworld. Maybe got a touch carried away in the old stream of consciousness. Then again there might be a legitimate reason for the strongholds isolation, a secret fortress hidden away in the hinterlands, or obfuscated in even weirder circumstances. Perhaps a cipher lords long lost tower, that the passing city folk cannot see, as its masters glamour still hides it from their vision.

[JFSOCC]

I pledged for the stronghold it better not be "just a better player house"

[Samb84]

There sure was some interesting ideas on this topic!

 

The only thing Im really hoping for is that we are able to customize the stronghold to some extent. I would love to have something like in NWN where you need reasources to be able to build things in your stronghold and not just money/gold (But Im reasonably sure this will be the case)

 

The truth is that I have great confidence in Obisian to get this to be a very enjoyable experience, which for me is kind of unusual these days...

Edited May 16, 2013 by Samb84

[jeffnindo]

I definitely vote for a library of books/scrolls/lore to be implemented. Half of the fun of Skyrim for me was collecting the books and storing them to read over. Is your stronghold's aesthetics a function of your class or of a faction/quest-line you favor?

[WotanAnubis]

 Is your stronghold's aesthetics a function of your class or of a faction/quest-line you favor?

 

Can't it be a mix of both? And why not throw cultural heritage into the mix?

 

But if I had to pick one out of Class/Culture/Faction, I'd choose Faction. Class and Culture are static facts about where your character came from before the game, whereas Faction is about decisions players make during the game and inform who your character currently is.

[jeffnindo]

You are quite right of course, no reason the stronghold can't be any and all of those things or, better yet, put to a vote on the forums? The more freedom we have to define the stronghold by our choices and actions from the start of the game and throughout, the better, in my opinion.

 

I don't know about you, but in a number of games I would like to have been more involved in various factions. Not just walking in one day and suddenly finding myself at the top with no where else to go from there, but having that allegiance play a part for the rest of the story through some re-activity  I don't think that'll be a problem for this game though

[Frenetic Pony]

I'd just love for their to be a very few handful of really well done ones.

 

Something with changing weather and a time of day, something you could change around as you wanted. But most of all something that really felt like it was going somewhere. Assassin's Creed 3 had this "Homestead" thing that was your house. And it was obvious there was a ton of money put into it, you'd do all these side things to add stuff to it, and you'd get all these really nicely animated NPC's coming to your homestead to... play their animations. And that was it.

 

It never really went anywhere besides them just showing up, as so much background idling. There was no overarching goal, no other rewards, no real customization or decisions to make. It was just a thing you did, and I don't think almost anyone was really happy with it. Having some sort of decision, or decisions to make, or an overarching goal with a reward at the end, or etc. would really make Strongholds feel worth pursuing rather than a side thing no one cares about.

[Walsingham]

Query: historically a stronghold is both a strenth and a weakness. At the most basic level, assuming you don't build it somewhere bloody stupid then others will value and want it.

[Lephys]

Assassin's Creed 3 had this "Homestead" thing that was your house. And it was obvious there was a ton of money put into it, you'd do all these side things to add stuff to it, and you'd get all these really nicely animated NPC's coming to your homestead to... play their animations. And that was it.

 

Simply put, Assassin's Creed 3's homestead was flawed because it had absolutely no effect on the rest of the game. On top of that, it didn't really even have any effect on itself, other than progression for the sake of progression. "Yay, you got more stuff, that lets you get more stuff, that doesn't do anything! 8D"

 

There's a large difference between "not necessary" and "literally doesn't have any bearing on anything in the game," and they didn't see that, I don't think.

[jamoecw]

Query: historically a stronghold is both a strenth and a weakness. At the most basic level, assuming you don't build it somewhere bloody stupid then others will value and want it.

perceived strength as well, if you put a city in a desert and make tons of money some people with think it is because you put it in a desert, or that there is some hidden thing that helps make you money there, so they will want to take it, even if all it was was really good administration.