Update #50: So... Project Eternity!

[ManifestedISO]

Not to get too excited, but it's April and the KS campaign estimated delivery of PE in April '14 ... woohoo!! Less than a year to go!! 

 

Just kidding. You guys take all the time you need. Thanks for making something I want to have. 

[Prometheus]

Do we know how ethnicity will be treated in this game? Will it only determine NPC attitudes toward the player, or will it also define starting skills?

 

We know that ethnicity will not affect the starting attributes. see the comment below from the something awful forums.

 

 

...

Race affects attributes, but ethnicity does not.

[Sensuki]

They're not into production quite yet, so I am guessing that the game May(2014) be delivered slightly later than promised.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Sensuki

[SunBroSolaire]

 

Do we know how ethnicity will be treated in this game? Will it only determine NPC attitudes toward the player, or will it also define starting skills?

 

We know that ethnicity will not affect the starting attributes. see the comment below from the something awful forums.

 

 

>...

Race affects attributes, but ethnicity does not.

 

Yeah, I saw that. Could still affect skill though, even if it doesn't affect base attributes. Or it could be a purely 'cosmetic' choice like gender that only affects how people view you in the world. The gamist in me would prefer every choice in character creation to have effects on abilities, on the other hand if the ethnicities are perceived to be analogous to real world ethnic groups there will inevitably be accusations of stereotyping. 

[Sacred_Path]

"So for this ethnicity over here, we took inspiration from a variety of southern European and north/eastern African cultures to create a blend we feel is fresh and interesting."

"What about those guys over there?"

'Eh, those are the same Germanic white dudes you see in 99% of fantasy."

I can't quite see the problem there. The point is to allow for diversity between factions, not reinventing the wheel. It would be quite odd if the ol' elves and dwarves are actually the most 'conservative' humanoid beings, while all human cultures are pulled straight out of a travelling circus.

[Aedelric]

The look of the Aumaua is great, just keep the continuity in future games. Last thing I want to see is a Dragon Age, where a fairly normal race suddenly develops giant horns and the Hulk inspired body types between squeals.

 

Not that I have anything to be worried about, with the exception of the Monk class I love everything you guys have shown us so far.

[Helm]

 

 

IIRC It's just BG2 he doesn't like.

Well, they are quite similar. BG2 + ToB is just generally regarded as being even better than BG1.

 

But oh well. Wut eva.

 

The issues he has with BGII mostly apply to it alone

 

>I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it.

 

Also be aware that that post is more than 7 years old now.

 

So 7 years later Josh Sawyer has suddenly decided that he likes the Baldur's Gate series after all those years of hate?

 

Well, lets hope so. He is the lead designer of the spiritual successor after all. And he should be making a game that we want and not one that he wants.

[Sensuki]

Never said he didn't like BG1 I don't think and that's more what P:E will be like in terms of power levels than BG:2 where you start the game at level 7-9.

 

I think the running quote from a while ago that you should be able to reach up to ~ level 12 equivalent of D&D in P:E.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Sensuki

[Helm]

Never said he didn't like BG1 I don't think and that's more what P:E will be like in terms of power levels than BG:2 where you start the game at level 7-9.

 

I think the running quote from a while ago that you should be able to reach up to ~ level 12 equivalent of D&D in P:E.

Seems weird to me that Josh Sawyer might dislike (or hate) Baldur's Gate 2 but like (or love) Baldur's Gate 1. But that is just me, BG2 is just defintely the better game in my opinion.

 

It does kind of worry me though, seeing that Josh Sawyer is the lead designer. But we have the other producers too I guess... I just hope that Josh doesn't give them the smackdown because he is the lead designer and dislikes BG2.

[Gumbercules]

 

"So for this ethnicity over here, we took inspiration from a variety of southern European and north/eastern African cultures to create a blend we feel is fresh and interesting."

"What about those guys over there?"

'Eh, those are the same Germanic white dudes you see in 99% of fantasy."

I can't quite see the problem there. The point is to allow for diversity between factions, not reinventing the wheel. It would be quite odd if the ol' elves and dwarves are actually the most 'conservative' humanoid beings, while all human cultures are pulled straight out of a travelling circus.

 

It wouldn't make them a travelling circus. There's the real life example of Norman Sicily, where the Normans significantly evolved their style of art and architecture once they moved to a radically different climate and came into contact with the Arabs and Byzantines. Here, take a look at the pretty pictures: http://interamericaninstitute.org/norman_sicily.htm

[Greensleeve]

 

Never said he didn't like BG1 I don't think and that's more what P:E will be like in terms of power levels than BG:2 where you start the game at level 7-9.

 

I think the running quote from a while ago that you should be able to reach up to ~ level 12 equivalent of D&D in P:E.

Seems weird to me that Josh Sawyer might dislike (or hate) Baldur's Gate 2 but like (or love) Baldur's Gate 1. But that is just me, BG2 is just defintely the better game in my opinion.

 

It does kind of worry me though, seeing that Josh Sawyer is the lead designer. But we have the other producers too I guess... I just hope that Josh doesn't give them the smackdown because he is the lead designer and dislikes BG2.

 

Will you please stop bitching about it? Josh is a very competent designer, he's shown that since IWD2, which was his first published product. The way you're talking makes it seem as though it's impossible to make a spiritual sequel to the Infinity Engine (which is what PE is), without making it, effectively, BG2. 

 

BG2 is my favourite game of all time. Hands down, more or less. But I see where Josh is coming from with his criticism. If you don't, maybe you should try to critically replay the game, really try to think on why this and this was done, etc. Try to distance yourself from the nostalgia. There are flaws in the game. They just weighed heavier for Josh. 

 

Lastly, if you didn't have confidence in the team involved in making the game when you first backed PE, why did you back it in the first place? Not liking one of five IE games isn't that big of a deal. 

[Helm]

Will you please stop bitching about it?

You don't have to whine about facts that you don't like.

 

Sawyer does not like the Baldur's Gate series for some reason, yet he is the lead designer of the spiritual successor. How can you be the lead designer of a spiritual successor to a series of games that you hate? How can you capture the spirit of game that you hate? If I was lead designer I would remove and change everything that I do not like, which be quite substantial in a game that I dislike.

 

I am pointing this out, because I do not understand. Will P:E be totally different than Baldur's Gate because of this? I doubt I will ever get an official response that states otherwise, so yes, that is probably how it will be.

Josh is a very competent designer, he's shown that since IWD2, which was his first published product.

Which games has he developed after IWD2? Fallout: New Vegas, that's it. He hardly did any work on NWN2.

 

Wow, that really says a lot more than his hate for Baldur's Gate. lol

[Sacred_Path]

It wouldn't make them a travelling circus. There's the real life example of Norman Sicily, where the Normans significantly evolved their style of art and architecture once they moved to a radically different climate and came into contact with the Arabs and Byzantines. Here, take a look at the pretty pictures: http://interamericaninstitute.org/norman_sicily.htm

You're dodging the issue: where, in a world that will have Tolkien Elves and Dwarves, is the problem with, say, one human faction that has "Germanic" influences? Does it go against the flavor of the world? Is it out of tune with the other factions? So far, there seems to be no problem. Edited April 18, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[pseudonymous]

Have you played the Baldur's Gate games recently?  Both Baldur's Gate games are incredibly annoying.  From the emo npcs to the stupid fed-ex quests to the kill a basement full of rats trope, it's depressing that they are held up as "great" games.  They may be the best games BioWare were ever involved with, but they're certainly not great.

 

Once you stop arguing about rules, Dungeons & Dragons is about slicing and dicing increasingly difficult monsters, not about shacking up with an emotionally damaged drow, a whiny she-elf, or a recently widowed druid on your path to god-hood.  Granted, god-hood is a nice way to duck the question of alimony and who gets what in the separation, it makes for an incredibly silly game plot.

 

The Icewind Dale series got it mostly right, even in mocking Baldur's Gate.  No muss, no fuss, just kill anything that moves.

[Gumbercules]

 

It wouldn't make them a travelling circus. There's the real life example of Norman Sicily, where the Normans significantly evolved their style of art and architecture once they moved to a radically different climate and came into contact with the Arabs and Byzantines. Here, take a look at the pretty pictures: http://interamericaninstitute.org/norman_sicily.htm

You're dodging the issue: where, in a world that will have Tolkien Elves and Dwarves, is the problem with, say, one human faction that has "Germanic" influences? Does it go against the flavor of the world? Is it out of tune with the other factions? So far, there seems to be no problem.

 

I'm not dodging the issue. We merely have a misunderstanding, and for that I apologize. I'm not saying that Germanic influences are bad, I'm saying that I think it would be more interesting if those influences (which I want to be kept!) were blended with others to further distinguish the game from past fantasy works. Looking back at my previous posts, I can understand how it could seem like I was pushing some cultural agenda of my own, when really I'm just trying to plead for freshness and originality.

 

As for elves and dwarves, we don't really know much about the Pale elves and Mountain dwarves, so I'll reserve my nitpicks on those groups for when they're revealed. The Boreal dwarves seem like they'll be fresh and interesting, so no complaints there. The Wood elves are apparently a significant part of the Aedyr population, so any tweaks to the Aedyr culture would presumably affect them as well.

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

 

Will you please stop bitching about it?

You don't have to whine about facts that you don't like.

 

Sawyer does not like the Baldur's Gate series for some reason, yet he is the lead designer of the spiritual successor. How can you be the lead designer of a spiritual successor to a series of games that you hate? How can you capture the spirit of game that you hate? If I was lead designer I would remove and change everything that I do not like, which be quite substantial in a game that I dislike.

 

I am pointing this out, because I do not understand. Will P:E be totally different than Baldur's Gate because of this? I doubt I will ever get an official response that states otherwise, so yes, that is probably how it will be.

>Josh is a very competent designer, he's shown that since IWD2, which was his first published product.

Which games has he developed after IWD2? Fallout: New Vegas, that's it. He hardly did any work on NWN2.

 

Wow, that really says a lot more than his hate for Baldur's Gate. lol

 

 

Baldur's Gate 2 was great, but it's been more than a decade and there were aspects of it that could be improved or that could be considered outdated. Sawyer didn't say he hated Baldur's Gate 2 overall, he just said that there were parts of it he didn't particularly like and felt could be improved, and brought up legitimate criticisms. Just because it's a spiritual successor doesn't mean it has to be identical to its predecessor. BG 2 was an excellent title, but it wasn't perfect, just as no other game really is.

 

Actually, him being a lead designer for IWD2 and New Vegas does say more than his opinion on Baldur's Gate 2, because it shows that he has made games before and he has knowledge when it comes to mechanics and game development. It's one thing to have an opinion on game design and another to actually have experience in it.  I don't think it's really fair to focus on a single cherrypicked quote and use that as basis to judge an entire project, before we've even seen significant footage of it.

[Amentep]

Sawyer does not like the Baldur's Gate series for some reason, yet he is the lead designer of the spiritual successor. How can you be the lead designer of a spiritual successor to a series of games that you hate? How can you capture the spirit of game that you hate? If I was lead designer I would remove and change everything that I do not like, which be quite substantial in a game that I dislike.

 

Since when is PE the spritual successor to Baldur's Gate only?  Seems to me there is a lot of room in being the spiritual successor to BG, BGII, PST, IWD, IWD2 and expansions than you want to acknowledge to do a variety of things.

 

And really what I take from a line like "I really disliked most of the CNPCs, I really disliked being forced to go find Imoen, I really disliked the style of dialogue, and I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla. Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about it." has more to do with disliking the way the story, joinable NPCs, and quest design was implemented.

 

We already know that the system is different (different engine, no D&D rules). I'd imagine the "impact" of Sawyers "hate" is that he won't tell the story the same way BGII did or implement quests the same way it did or have NPCs built the same way and interact with the party the same way.

 

Which, to be fair, neither did BG1, PST or IWD and IWD2. And I doubt PE is going to be exactly like them either. I'm not sure where the problem is, to be honest because I never expected PE to be slavishly devoted to recreating any of those games, but taking the style of game and making something new.

[Helm]

 

 

Sawyer does not like the Baldur's Gate series for some reason, yet he is the lead designer of the spiritual successor.

Since when is PE the spritual successor to Baldur's Gate only? Seems to me there is a lot of room in being the spiritual successor to BG, BGII, PST, IWD, IWD2 and expansions than you want to acknowledge to do a variety of things.

 

 

What are you expecting then? ONLY an IWD2 style dungeon crawler with a narrative like in Planescape? Doesn't really sound much like Baldur's Gate to me. Yeah, it would be more appropriate, seeing that the lead designer hates the Baldur's Gate series.

 

Even during the Kickstarter campaign the mentioned that P:E will resemble the Baldur's Gate series the most. They of course did not say that the lead designer hates the Baldur's Gate series though, that would have been honest, but also very bad marketing.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Helm

[Keyrock]

I find it to be a positive that Josh openly criticizes aspects of Baldur's Gate.  Obsidian is making a spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games (not just Baldur's Gate), they are not recreating the Infinity Engine games themselves.  All those games, as great as they were, had many problems with them.  I, for one, am glad Josh is open about things he finds faults with and is striving to do better.  For me that's much better than ignoring the faults and being doomed to repeat them.  You can like something and still criticize it.  If you like something and are blind to its faults, that's, by definition, called fanboyism.

[Helm]

Sawyer didn't say he hated Baldur's Gate 2 overall, he just said that there were parts of it he didn't particularly like and felt could be improved, and brought up legitimate criticisms.

He said there was not much that he likes about it. So yeah, he disliked most of it. One of the greatest games ever made and now we are (supposedly) getting a spiritual successor... BUT the lead designer hates the spiritual predecessors (Baldur's Gate series). Especially the fantastic mage battles. LOL

Edited April 18, 2013 by Helm

[Helm]

I find it to be a positive that Josh openly criticizes aspects of Baldur's Gate.  Obsidian is making a spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games (not just Baldur's Gate), they are not recreating the Infinity Engine games themselves.  All those games, as great as they were, had many problems with them.  I, for one, am glad Josh is open about things he finds faults with and is striving to do better.  For me that's much better than ignoring the faults and being doomed to repeat them.  You can like something and still criticize it.  If you like something and are blind to its faults, that's, by definition, called fanboyism.

What better way to capture the magic of the Inifinity Engine games, by having a lead designer that hates the most popular of them, i.e. the Baldur's Gate series.

 

So that only leaves IWD and Planescape left. Does this mean we will be getting a dungeon crawler with a fantastic narrative? lol

[Sensuki]

you keep saying series, when it's really just BG2.

[Gumbercules]

What better way to capture the magic of the Inifinity Engine games, by having a lead designer that hates the most popular of them, i.e. the Baldur's Gate series.

 

So that only leaves IWD and Planescape left. Does this mean we will be getting a dungeon crawler with a fantastic narrative? lol

 

Alright, cards on the table: which elements that are unique to the Baldur's Gate games and not the other Infinity Engine games are you worried Project Eternity won't have?

[Amentep]

What are you expecting then?

 

A lengthy isometric fantasy RPG with a number of well drawn, well written joinable companions, with a strong story and sidequests and a fun and involving combat system.

 

ONLY an IWD2 style dungeon crawler with a narrative like in Planescape? Doesn't really sound much like Baldur's Gate to me. Yeah, it would be more appropriate, seeing that the lead designer hates the Baldur's Gate series.

 

And an emotional/philosophical exploration based narrative like Planescape Torment combined with the stronghold building of Baldur's Gate II and the explorable map areas of Bladur's Gate I doesn't sound much like Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter. 

 

I'm not really sure how you can combine these three games and ever get Baldur's Gate unchanged back.  So I'm not sure how you can take a concept that promises "Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment" and assume it'll be exactly like Baldur's Gate II.

 

PE to my mind is a game that pulls elements from all of these games; by its nature it can't be BALDUR'S GATE III or ICEWIND DALE III.

 

Even during the Kickstarter campaign the mentioned that P:E will resemble the Baldur's Gate series the most. They of course did not say that the lead designer hates the Baldur's Gate series though, that would have been honest, but also very bad marketing.

 

Really? Because what I read was:

 

Project Eternity is an isometric, party-based computer RPG set in a new fantasy world developed by Obsidian Entertainment.

 

and the above quote about how they planned to use elements of all three games, neither of which to my mind promise a continuation of Baldur's Gate replicated ten years on.  YMMV of course; but that's not what I got out of the Kickstarter video.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Amentep

[Greensleeve]

I'd suggest not to respond to the, quite frankly, rather insular and close-minded views of Helm. He is clearly not interested in engaging in a open, proper discussion on the topic, nor is he interested in actually meeting our points. All he is interested in is bashing Josh for not liking BGII, and us for saying that Josh is justified in his criticism, ignoring all of our other rather well formulated points. 

 

If Helm wants to complain because he's not getting an exact replica of BGII, let him. The rest of us seem to have somewhat more nuanced and mature expectations on the project than "Give me BGII, noaw!"