Now that you released the first video...

[Lillycake]

Now that you released the first video of the game, it's obviously to everyone's joy that the lighting effects are so brilliant.  Since that wisp like character moved around and showed off the lighting it really got me thinking :

 

How cool would it be to create caves or certain areas where there is literally no static lighting effects and it requires certain members to equip torches or use light spells?  That would be so much fun if you can do something like that!

[Pidesco]

Pitch black darkness is something I always miss in games. It would be great if light and darkness were an integral part of the gameplay.

[LadyCrimson]

I'd definitely like it if it was at least darker at night than it typically is in games. I don't personally need pitch blackness all the time (moonlit nights can actually be pretty bright, even if it's not a total full moon) but something darker that makes torches etc. feel more advantageous.

[Alc Cides]

I totally agree with more darkness is necesary. The idea of torches to exploration is great and they can add another thing: What about a difference in the vision capability from the races on the game? Maybe one race can see more in the dark than another, so if you've one on your party it's better to explore this areas. 

[Ffordesoon]

Low-light vision. Darkvision. YES.

[El Duderino]

I was about to suggest that in the Update topic.

Darker nights, that's the way to go.

[Briche]

I sugest some movements to the characters while they are stoped. Maybe look to the sides like in BG, move the hands, scracth the noose XD or dont go with the sword in the hands. I know is sth useless but could be cool

[mstark]

Fully supporting this idea

 

It was discussed on various threads on lighting in the past, too!

[Gfted1]

Hell no. The last thing I want to do is have to carry around a bunch of torches (although we could carry the entire forests worth in our bottomless backpack) or have to put the torch down to re-equip my weapons.

[Somna]

 

Hell no. The last thing I want to do is have to carry around a bunch of torches (although we could carry the entire forests worth in our bottomless backpack) or have to put the torch down to re-equip my weapons.

Given how annoying that can be, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't make torches implicit. Although it might be interesting if there is a "Light Source" slot on each character, so that you can either leave a default torch there or add a magic torch, magic light, or other light source there. It'd also be interesting if stuff like lanterns could be used to change the light circle into a cone of light, or other shapes.

[LadyCrimson]

That's why I've always like light spells in games.

 

I think people do have to remember this isn't a 3D or 1st person perspective game, too. You're not going to have pretty Skyrim-y (modded) environments...and at a certain point of darkness, it's likely it wouldn't look all that great because the contrast of the more "painted" look of the 2d backgrounds would probably start to look terrible/lose all detail, or something...maybe...dunno not a graphic program expert.

 

While it'd be great to have darkness mean more gameplay-wise, even at a minimum, for me I just think it's too bright at night in the video. There should be a lot more contrast. Even turning the gamma down/darkening it overall could alter the mood without limiting vision or feeling like you're "stumbling around in the dark."  I'd be happy enough if the general "world" was just a fair bit darker/contrasted for a more moody effect.

 

This is a still from the video with the original "night."

 

 

And this is from simply lowering gamma and "darkening" it in a broad sense (excuse my "eXpeRt" photoshop skillz) ... and you can see how the loss of detail starts to look funny in spots with such simple alterations. But I'd assume the actual experts could do something better/more effective. The point is that it's more akin to the darkness-mood I'd like to see outside, perhaps. Not so "bright." You could make the smaller dungeon spaces even darker/more light source dependent (no moon in a dungeon after all), yet still not be "pitch black", I'd think, too.

 

[rjshae]

Playing in a dark environment is about as much fun as a bag full of mixed nuts and bolts. No thanks. If you need to play in a pitch black environment, I suggest wearing a blindfold.

[Lephys]

That would be awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The only thing I've hated about how this was done in the past is that the darkness around you acted like a mask over the entire image, so, you could literally only see anything within the radius-proper of the light source. This would be awesome if the light had a larger radius for more highly reflective surfaces, so you'd see things like eyes, armor, weapons, exoskeletons, slick rocks, etc., glinting/shining out in the darkness, even if you couldn't see all the details of the figures/terrain at that distance.

 

Basically, I think that "Do it exactly like we've seen in old games" and "don't try to do it at all" are not the only two options here. It can be done in a non-super-ultra-annoying manner, and instead in a "Holy crap this is AMAZING!" manner.

 

G1fted... I know you don't believe me, and I understand your annoyance with the idea of attempting such a thing (because of crappy iterations of it in past games, and all the annoying torch mechanics you reference... totally understandable). But I urge you to have an open mind here, . You don't have to be optimistic about it or anything. Just please don't think that it can only be done crappily. I'll... I'll give you a dollar. o_o

[LadyCrimson]

I keep trying to think of a similar sort of game (not some fancy 3D action game) where darkness wasn't "pitch black" and you could go without using torches, but torches etc. were still visually interesting effects/made a difference. I know I've played some but titles aren't coming to mind for me to Google for some example images....

This would be awesome if the light had a larger radius for more highly reflective surfaces, so you'd see things like eyes, armor, weapons, exoskeletons, slick rocks, etc., glinting/shining out in the darkness, even if you couldn't see all the details of the figures/terrain at that distance.

Yes, exactly.

Playing in a dark environment is about as much fun as a bag full of mixed nuts and bolts. No thanks. If you need to play in a pitch black environment, I suggest wearing a blindfold.

I don't know why everyone assumes people are talking about "pitch black like you're blindfolded" when people say they want it darker and want light sources to have more of a visual/gameplay effect.

[Lillycake]

I keep trying to think of a similar sort of game (not some fancy 3D action game) where darkness wasn't "pitch black" and you could go without using torches, but torches etc. were still visually interesting effects/made a difference. 

 

 

 

Neverwinter Nights did a great job, I think.  However what I'm hoping for in Project Eternity is light spells/objects (enchanted items?) being required in certain areas.

[Lephys]

Neverwinter Nights did a great job, I think.  However what I'm hoping for in Project Eternity is light spells/objects (enchanted items?) being required in certain areas.

 

I don't know that they need to be "required," per se. And actually... what if it was a bit abstracted? What if you could still see the terrain well enough to not have eye strain, and you could even see enemies, but you simply couldn't make out details without a light source or some form of night/low-light vision (in certain, deep deep dark dark deep dark deep dark areas, of course... not ANYWHERE you don't have a torch)? Maybe the enemies become just kind of shadowy, so you can maybe tell a goblin from a wolf, but you can't tell a goblin shaman from a little goblin pawn or something? Also, maybe (maybe) you can't see make out chests/containers? That way, a light source gives you a rather decent advantage so that it isn't just some pointless thing that the "crazy hardcore immersion" peeps can play pretend with, but, at the same time, it doesn't uberly piss off the people who are ultra-bothered by the necessity to use a lightsource just to see and navigate/play through, to ANY degree, certain areas.

 

Meh?

 

I mean, really, if you're just flat-out against having to use light in the darkness, then you might as well be against having to overcome armor, or having to reveal magically invisible/stealthy enemies, or having to have lockpicks to pick locks. Is it really so bad that a certain situation would require a certain item/thing to overcome? (Is what I ask anyone who is so hardcore against the idea of darkness and useful lightsources that they STILL moan about even my compromise suggestion)

[Pipyui]

I don't know, while I usually prefer my game nights darker, I think the night is almost right in this demo (maybe just a little darker).  Moonlit nights can get pretty darn bright, and the scenery here looks beautiful under moonlight.

 

Also:

 

The only thing I've hated about how this was done in the past is that the darkness around you acted like a mask over the entire image, so, you could literally only see anything within the radius-proper of the light source. This would be awesome if the light had a larger radius for more highly reflective surfaces, so you'd see things like eyes, armor, weapons, exoskeletons, slick rocks, etc., glinting/shining out in the darkness, even if you couldn't see all the details of the figures/terrain at that distance.

 

This.  The perfect light-circle always kinda bugged me in a weird frustrating way ("I have a torch, but I can't see a sheer wall 15 feet in front of my face.").  Depending on how their rendering engine works for dynamic lighting on 2D surfaces, this may be entirely possible, and I'd love to see it implemented.

On a completely unrelated note, a stealth system modified more by light contrast rather than light magnitude would be great.  A dude with a torch should be noticible by anybody at night.

 

What if you could still see the terrain well enough to not have eye strain, and you could even see enemies, but you simply couldn't make out details without a light source or some form of night/low-light vision.

 

I wouldn't even argue against enemies fading into view when they approach or are noticed.  Like an invisible fog of war.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Pipyui

[rjshae]

 

Playing in a dark environment is about as much fun as a bag full of mixed nuts and bolts. No thanks. If you need to play in a pitch black environment, I suggest wearing a blindfold.

I don't know why everyone assumes people are talking about "pitch black like you're blindfolded" when people say they want it darker and want light sources to have more of a visual/gameplay effect.

 

Some parts of an area map are going to be darker than others. Just look at the illustration above: the pools of darkness are near impenetrable. That means lowering the lighting levels will create areas of pitch black. I've played in games like that, and there was little to enjoy in the experience. I think Baldur's Gate 2 had a few underground areas that were very difficult to navigate because they were so dark.

 

But if necessary I can use the game calibration feature on my monitor to brighten the dark regions, so no matter.

[Lephys]

I just thought of this, but I heard they'll be implementing these areas, collectively called "combat," that will require the equipping of weapons as well as the use of abilities like "attack" and "move" to get through. That's gonna be annoying if you don't want to use weapons or silly abilities just to overcome hostile obstacles.

 

I hope they don't do that. We shouldn't have to use provided capabilities in the game to deal with certain situations in the game. What are you thinking, Obsidian!

 

 

I jest... I agree that it shouldn't ever be a binary "see nicely with a lightsource, or SEE NOTHING AT ALL." That would be like saying "Oh, you dropped your sword? You can't attack at all. You just have to stand there and die." You might be less effective without your weapon, but you can go and pick it up, or equip something else for the time-being, etc. You're not completely prevented from combat progress, just because you didn't have super-specific things equipped and use super-specific abilities.

 

But, at the same time, going into the dark without a light source should be kind of like going into combat nekkid. You can do it... but it's probably a bad idea. And having an adequate light source should be about as easy as having equipment, so even "pitch-black without it!" areas shouldn't really be a problem, unless you just hate preparation and like to do everything the hardest way imaginable.

[Helm]

I was about to suggest that in the Update topic.

Darker nights, that's the way to go.

It would make sense. If anybody has ever been out in the open outside of a city, then they will see how dark it can actually get.

 

It gets very, very dark. Especially on a new moon. Somebody could hide in the bushes 1 meter in front of you and you would not even be able to see him.

 

If this is good for a game though is another question.

[LadyCrimson]

@rjshae - if you meant my home-gamma-darkened 2nd image, I already mentioned that just doing what I did results in too dark patches/loss of detail, and I'm fairly certain it could be done better by the programmers.

 

I remembered one of the games I was thinking of .... the original Divine Divinity. DD did have the "perfect circle of light" effect around chrs. (and fog of war), but outside of that my memory thinks it had some success at making night feel more night-like and enemies harder to see in the distance (even when fog of war was removed) without being blind to anything on screen. But some would probably like it even darker than in DD... also, looking at screenshots from around the web it doesn't seem much "darker" than some of BG series nights/house interiors etc. Maybe I turned the gamma down when I was playing.

[Ineth]

Well, the game's setting is not earth, it is a new fantasy world.

 

Who knows how dark it really gets there? Maybe the planet has a really bright moon? Or several?

So the "realism" argument in favor of darker nights falls flat.

 

It should only get so dark that you require torches, if the developers feel that it would considerably add to the gameplay.

[LadyCrimson]

I don't care about realism per se - I just like the mood and upped tension in some situations, as well as the added gameplay of deciding to use light spells/torches because they have advantages, or line-of-sight illumination when tech makes it possible. But mostly, the mood. If it's not going to be very dark at all, why bother having it be technically "night" in the first place. Put it on a planet where there are 6 suns and night never truly falls and you can't even see stars in the sky, except maybe once every 2000 years when there's a total eclipse ... oh wait that's an Asimov story, nvm. Or yeah, you could have 3 bright purple moons, making nights bright but purple-hued....

 

Also, "realism" argument for darkness in general would still apply in basements/dungeons (underground) and buildings (if shades/shutters/doors are drawn). At the least, that "endless" dungeon should be darn dark after the first level or two.

[Ineth]

Pitch black darkness is something I always miss in games.

 

Try Aquaria (a cool underwater open-world exploration & action game in hand-drawn 2D).

 

During much of the first half of the game the environment is very bright, colorful and pretty (with the exception of some "dungeons"), but once you get down to the Abyss, it's pitch black and you will need a light source to stand a chance. (And of course keeping the light source active interferes with combat. And of course all kinds of horrible fantasy sea creatures, who are perfectly adapted to the darkness themselves, roam the waters and love to ambush you... )

 

 

That said, I'm not sure how well it would translate to a party-based cRPG with tactical combat...

[Ineth]

Or yeah, you could have 3 bright purple moons, making nights bright but purple-hued....

 

Fine by me

 

Also, "realism" argument for darkness in general would still apply in basements/dungeons (underground) and buildings (if shades/shutters/doors are drawn). At the least, that "endless" dungeon should be darn dark after the first level or two.

 

That's true.