Margaret Thatcher is dead

[Rostere]

Bollocks.

In another situation, she would without a shadow of a doubt have been cheering along Hitler and Mussolini in the thirties

 

Thatcher was a passionate believer in liberty. She despised dictatorships of any stripe. She helped negotiate the end of the Cold War and brought down a tyranny in Argentina.

 

That she had flaws is a matter of record, but your assertion there is epic in it's inacuraccy and offensive to the woman's reputation. Please, as this is the internet, provide some evidence for Thatcher's alleged support for totalitarianism.

 

It's a very dubious claim that she helped to end the Cold War in any way (you should really know better...), except if stabilizing the situation in Britain counts as one. She definitely helped to bring down the Argentinian dictatorship through her stubbornness during the Falklands war though.

 

One of many links to my claim is in my original post. I'm sure she was a passionate believer in liberty, where liberty means low taxes. She does not seem to have been so discerning about democratic rights and such when it comes to other countries. Search a bit yourself about Thatcher and Pinochet on the Internet. You really have to make an ass out of yourself in order to say I'm wrong. I know you like the other stuff she did but are you able to accept she was not a saint? Try to look at the facts.

 

Here's an interesting Time article you should read as well. Check out the boot- licking speech she gave to the dictator Zia-ul Haq which is linked in the article. The "right of Afghans to choose their own government" was her way of saying that the Taliban were to be put into power. Ironic, isn't it?

 

Augusto Pinochet.

PW Botha.

Saddam Hussein.

What do I win?

 

(And I don't even agree that Thatcher would have supported Hitler/ Musso. Churchill, who was outright fascist in many respects like gassing Iraqi's, white man's burden, exploitation etc was stridently anti-fascist after all and did not believe in banding together with Uncle A to fight Uncle J. But Thatcher was an absolutely typical western hypocrite 'democrat', totalitarianism was AOK, fine, brilliant even, so long as it was her friends doing the murder, torture and suppression rather than her enemies.)

 

There's no way an English 30s Thatcher would have supported Hitler or Mussolini. That's not what I meant to say, sorry, if I was a bit unclear.

 

A German or Italian Thatcher would definitely had done that though.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Rostere

[BruceVC]

Augusto Pinochet.

PW Botha.

Saddam Hussein.

What do I win?

 

(And I don't even agree that Thatcher would have supported Hitler/ Musso. Churchill, who was outright fascist in many respects like gassing Iraqi's, white man's burden, exploitation etc was stridently anti-fascist after all and did not believe in banding together with Uncle A to fight Uncle J. But Thatcher was an absolutely typical western hypocrite 'democrat', totalitarianism was AOK, fine, brilliant even, so long as it was her friends doing the murder, torture and suppression rather than her enemies.)

 

But the West doesn't support dictators as a rule, all these people were only supported because they opposed Communism and as I mentioned that was the greater evil at the time. You will  notice many regimes came to an abrupt end from 1988-1992 , and this was when  the Cold War ended. Including Apartheid where it was clear that the West would no longer ignore the egregious situation in South Africa.Up to then South Africa had also played in important part in several proxy wars throughout Africa that ultimately were ideological conflicts, Communism vs Democracy\Capitalism 

[melkathi]

On an unrelated note to the merits and faults of Thatcher.

BruceVC, am I a bad person for looking at this thread this morning and thinking "Thatcher may be dead, but

!" ? Edited April 10, 2013 by melkathi

[BruceVC]

On an unrelated note to the merits and faults of Thatcher.

BruceVC, am I a bad person for looking at this thread this morning and thinking "Thatcher may be dead, but

!" ?

 

I don't think so, and that video made me chuckle

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

Augusto Pinochet.

PW Botha.

Saddam Hussein.

What do I win?

 

(And I don't even agree that Thatcher would have supported Hitler/ Musso. Churchill, who was outright fascist in many respects like gassing Iraqi's, white man's burden, exploitation etc was stridently anti-fascist after all and did not believe in banding together with Uncle A to fight Uncle J. But Thatcher was an absolutely typical western hypocrite 'democrat', totalitarianism was AOK, fine, brilliant even, so long as it was her friends doing the murder, torture and suppression rather than her enemies.)

 

But the West doesn't support dictators as a rule, all these people were only supported because they opposed Communism and as I mentioned that was the greater evil at the time. You will  notice many regimes came to an abrupt end from 1988-1992 , and this was when  the Cold War ended. Including Apartheid where it was clear that the West would no longer ignore the egregious situation in South Africa.Up to then South Africa had also played in important part in several proxy wars throughout Africa that ultimately were ideological conflicts, Communism vs Democracy\Capitalism 

 

If hypocrisy was the Force you'd be strangling Yoda right now.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Augusto Pinochet.

PW Botha.

Saddam Hussein.

What do I win?

 

(And I don't even agree that Thatcher would have supported Hitler/ Musso. Churchill, who was outright fascist in many respects like gassing Iraqi's, white man's burden, exploitation etc was stridently anti-fascist after all and did not believe in banding together with Uncle A to fight Uncle J. But Thatcher was an absolutely typical western hypocrite 'democrat', totalitarianism was AOK, fine, brilliant even, so long as it was her friends doing the murder, torture and suppression rather than her enemies.)

 

But the West doesn't support dictators as a rule, all these people were only supported because they opposed Communism and as I mentioned that was the greater evil at the time. You will  notice many regimes came to an abrupt end from 1988-1992 , and this was when  the Cold War ended. Including Apartheid where it was clear that the West would no longer ignore the egregious situation in South Africa.Up to then South Africa had also played in important part in several proxy wars throughout Africa that ultimately were ideological conflicts, Communism vs Democracy\Capitalism 

 

If hypocrisy was the Force you'd be strangling Yoda right now.

 

Sorry I don't understand what you are saying, maybe you can elaborate a little?

[Malcador]

Hmm not sure 'communism' was the greater evil to some of the dictators.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Hmm not sure 'communism' was the greater evil to some of the dictators.

 

Not to mention how somehow supporting dictators is vindicated just by the existence of communism?

 

But really, its all just shifting the discussion into the ideological sphere instead of where it should reside: a simple us vs them conflict. The USSR was and wanted to be a major independent player. The west, meaning the US, tolerates no independent states unless it absolutely must. Even then its not really tolerating but constantly attempting to undermine through other means - like with today's Iran, China, Russia, North Korea etc.

 

And the new two minutes of hate start again when the evil enemy of the day is defined.

 

Carefully tiptoeing around say the question of Saudi Arabia which still enjoys unconditional support even though it is undoubtedly, the absolute worst country in the world especially when considering the potential of its wealth, incomparable on any level to the aforementioned nations above.

[BruceVC]

 

Hmm not sure 'communism' was the greater evil to some of the dictators.

 

 

 

Carefully tiptoeing around say the question of Saudi Arabia which still enjoys unconditional support even though it is undoubtedly, the absolute worst country in the world especially when considering the potential of its wealth, incomparable on any level to the aforementioned nations above.

 

Sorry my friend but I disagree. Our company has a branch in Dubai and I travel to the Middle East regularly for work. I have also had to work on 3 one month contracts in Saudi Arabia and its most definitely not the worst country in the region. A couple of points about Saudi Arabia (for the record I would never live there but you can work there)

 

• Is it a Western Democracy? No and it does have several conservative laws that I think are wrong but almost  all countries in the Middle East have laws and cultures that I disagree with but these are things we need to accept when we work in other countries
• Is it a friend to the West? Yes, the Saudi's have been instrumental in the War on Terror and helped expose several plots by Al-Qaeda. When you travel there as a Westerner you don't feel threatened at all and the companies I worked for treated me really well
• Are the citizens of Saudi Arabia happy? Yes in the sense that they didn't have the violent riots and uprisings that we saw in Libya, Egypt and Syria. The Saudi King allocated $30 Billion to uplifting his poorer citizens when the Arab Spring started and he avoided any serious violence

 

Why do you think Saudi Arabia is such a terrible place compared to Zimbabwe or Iraq under Saddam Hussein?

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

Hmm not sure 'communism' was the greater evil to some of the dictators.

 

 

 

Carefully tiptoeing around say the question of Saudi Arabia which still enjoys unconditional support even though it is undoubtedly, the absolute worst country in the world especially when considering the potential of its wealth, incomparable on any level to the aforementioned nations above.

 

Sorry my friend but I disagree. Our company has a branch in Dubai and I travel to the Middle East regularly for work. I have also had to work on 3 one month contracts in Saudi Arabia and its most definitely not the worst country in the region. A couple of points about Saudi Arabia (for the record I would never live there but you can work there)

 

• Is it a Western Democracy? No and it does have several conservative laws that I think are wrong but almost  all countries in the Middle East have laws and cultures that I disagree with but these are things we need to accept when we work in other countries
• Is it a friend to the West? Yes, the Saudi's have been instrumental in the War on Terror and helped expose several plots by Al-Qaeda. When you travel there as a Westerner you don't feel threatened at all and the companies I worked for treated me really well
• Are the citizens of Saudi Arabia happy? Yes in the sense that they didn't have the violent riots and uprisings that we saw in Libya, Egypt and Syria. The Saudi King allocated $30 Billion to uplifting his poorer citizens when the Arab Spring started and he avoided any serious violence

 

Why do you think Saudi Arabia is such a terrible place compared to Zimbabwe or Iraq under Saddam Hussein?

 

You're misrepresenting things or uninformed. I went to Abu Dhabi, and spoke to several US expatriates that lived and worked in SA. They hated the place, said it was absolute hell to work there for an extended period of time and very unsafe. They were glad to get out in one piece, lived in closed off compounds and had tight security all the while.

 

By conservative laws you mean chopping people's hands off for stealing, decapitation as capital punishment and stoning to death for adultery? Or is it the political system, the uncontested rule of an absolute monarch and his free will to do whatever he feel like at all times?

 

A friend of the west? The friend that funnels astronomical sums of money into fundamentalist wahabi proselytism and terrorists cells all over the world? 

 

As for the protests: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9313_Saudi_Arabian_protests

 

Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Walsingham]

Can we table the merits of the 'better devils' for its own discussion? I feel the relevance to Thatcher is now clearly made as a subject.

 

In so far as going bonkers right wing, that's certainly how I remember it. However, with the benefit of hindsight I can now see a lot of serious issues with the role played by Big trades unionism in making Britain a basket case.

 

I'm actually a fan of organising at a grass roots level. But the dream for many of the little sods in the 70s and 80s was a communist revolution. And I think it's sufficient to say that a dictatorship of the proletariat is still a crap deal in my opinion.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Hmm not sure 'communism' was the greater evil to some of the dictators.

 

 

 

Carefully tiptoeing around say the question of Saudi Arabia which still enjoys unconditional support even though it is undoubtedly, the absolute worst country in the world especially when considering the potential of its wealth, incomparable on any level to the aforementioned nations above.

 

Sorry my friend but I disagree. Our company has a branch in Dubai and I travel to the Middle East regularly for work. I have also had to work on 3 one month contracts in Saudi Arabia and its most definitely not the worst country in the region. A couple of points about Saudi Arabia (for the record I would never live there but you can work there)

 

• Is it a Western Democracy? No and it does have several conservative laws that I think are wrong but almost  all countries in the Middle East have laws and cultures that I disagree with but these are things we need to accept when we work in other countries
• Is it a friend to the West? Yes, the Saudi's have been instrumental in the War on Terror and helped expose several plots by Al-Qaeda. When you travel there as a Westerner you don't feel threatened at all and the companies I worked for treated me really well
• Are the citizens of Saudi Arabia happy? Yes in the sense that they didn't have the violent riots and uprisings that we saw in Libya, Egypt and Syria. The Saudi King allocated $30 Billion to uplifting his poorer citizens when the Arab Spring started and he avoided any serious violence

 

Why do you think Saudi Arabia is such a terrible place compared to Zimbabwe or Iraq under Saddam Hussein?

 

You're misrepresenting things or uninformed. I went to Abu Dhabi, and spoke to several US expatriates that lived and worked in SA. They hated the place, said it was absolute hell to work there for an extended period of time and very unsafe. They were glad to get out in one piece, lived in closed off compounds and had tight security all the while.

 

By conservative laws you mean chopping people's hands off for stealing, decapitation as capital punishment and stoning to death for adultery? Or is it the political system, the uncontested rule of an absolute monarch and his free will to do whatever he feel like at all times?

 

A friend of the west? The friend that funnels astronomical sums of money into fundamentalist wahabi proselytism and terrorists cells all over the world? 

 

As for the protests: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9313_Saudi_Arabian_protests

 

Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Sorry Drowsy but you are the one who is misinformed. I am telling you I have lived in Riyadh for 3 months, its very safe. You can walk in the streets and the locals may be indifferent towards you but not once was I threatened. There are wealthy Saudi's who support terrorism and Al Qaeda but thats there own choice and not the policy of the Saudi government. As I mentioned the Saudi government has arrested hundreds of Al Qaeda members in the last few years, they didn't do this because they love the West but they did do this as they became targets of Al Qaeda themselves so they clamped down on fundamentalism, or rather they clamped down on the fundamentalism of the likes of Al Qaeda

 

Now if you asked me " did you enjoy working there", the answer would be an emphatic "no". Its not a great place for a liberal like me. But thousands of ex-pats work there for years and make good money. But for me quality of life is more important than money. In Saudi it wasn't the fact that you can't get alcohol that bothered me but the reality that you just can't speak to any women. Its depressing as I enjoy the company of ladies.

 

But once again these things  don't make Saudi Arabia the worst country in the world, far from it. If you understand there cultural rules and respect them you will have no issues and a short work contract will be a profitable excursion

[Malcador]

Should have found some migrant workers to talk to.

[BruceVC]

Should have found some migrant workers to talk to.

 

I don't deny that there is systemic abuse of migrant workers across the Middle East, but its not part of the law of countries and is illegal..though this is often ignored. Also you don't see this living in Riyadh, this probably happens in the rural area's

[Calax]

But really, its all just shifting the discussion into the ideological sphere instead of where it should reside: a simple us vs them conflict. The USSR was and wanted to be a major independent player. The west, meaning the US, tolerates no independent states unless it absolutely must. Even then its not really tolerating but constantly attempting to undermine through other means - like with today's Iran, China, Russia, North Korea etc.

Um... You're kinda twisting things here. Everyone wants everyone else to be dependent on them. Mongolia, India, and Pakistan are not reliant on the USA and are independent states... your doing a terrible job at demonizing the USA when you have to pick people who actively antagonize the US as the examples for "United states vill dominate ze werld!"

 

The US does have a massive impact on the world, because we're the nation who's pop culture reaches the farthest. And the USSR didn't "Want to be a major independent player" they WERE the other major player. Fear of them is what caused a lot of the rightward swing in politics, and is at least part of why Margret Thatcher got her job.

[AGX-17]

I knew she was disliked, but I'm surprised by the vehemence seen from people on her passing.

Her hardline stance singlehandedly extended the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland for over 10 years (a generation of IRA members joined up because of her, according to a number of BBC commentators, reporters, and former IRA members themselves,) she destroyed the British coal industry, she was a passionate backer of big business special interests, her Hayekian economic policies put the British economy into a recession that would have seen her ousted after her first term were it not for the Falklands War, etc. I guess it may be too late now, but if you'd listened to the BBC's coverage and retrospective on her life, you'd have gotten a longer laundry list of reasons why "x" populace or faction despised her. Edited April 10, 2013 by AGX-17

[Amentep]

 

I knew she was disliked, but I'm surprised by the vehemence seen from people on her passing.

Her hardline stance singlehandedly extended the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland for over 10 years (a generation of IRA members joined up because of her, according to a number of BBC commentators, reporters, and former IRA members themselves,) she destroyed the British coal industry, she was a passionate backer of big business special interests, her Hayekian economic policies put the British economy into a recession that would have seen her ousted after her first term were it not for the Falklands War, etc. I guess it may be too late now, but if you'd listened to the BBC's coverage and retrospective on her life, you'd have gotten a longer laundry list of reasons why "x" populace or faction despised her.

 

I understand why people dislike her.  I'm not sure I understand celebrating her death as - to me at least - there are very few people we should celebrate the death of (if any, I waffle on the point).

[rjshae]

[Zoraptor]

I'd say the main reason is that she was utterly unapologetic about the impact of her policies and seemed to bask and take pride in the damage she did to lives. To some of course that means strong leadership in the face of the consequences of necessary policies; to others it means that she celebrated making them unemployed and- literally- ruining their lives. Gutting a town and instantly making half or more of its population unemployed, then going on the telly to pat yourself on the back for doing so is not going to endear her to those in that town, and they will remember.

 

And there are other specific issues too, like her shameful handling of Hillsborough though she was far from alone in that clusterasterisk of incompetence and malfeasance.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I understand why people dislike her.  I'm not sure I understand celebrating her death as - to me at least - there are very few people we should celebrate the death of (if any, I waffle on the point).

I think it depends on how you endured her years in power and/or the effects it had on you personally. If your life was ruined by what Thatcher did, then celebrating her death would be expected. Kind of like how some ex-slaves would celebrate the deaths of their former masters.*

 

*Not that I'm saying people were ever slaves to Thatcher.

Edited April 10, 2013 by KaineParker

[Meshugger]

So she closed a couple of mines and was a **** about it? Does that warrant such happiness of her death and hatred for her in general? Oh well.

[Malcador]

So she closed a couple of mines and was a **** about it? Does that warrant such happiness of her death and hatred for her in general? Oh well.

Can imagine that not endearing one to some people. But largely who cares if people want to spit on her grave.

[Gorgon]

I never knew she was still alive. Before a couple of days ago that is.

 

Don't have anything positive to say about her politics, but she did start the painful but necessary job of breaking the hegemony of the trade unions. Without any sense of the way the wind was blowing, but then if she had had any PR finesse she wouldn't have done it in the first place.

[Calax]

So she closed a couple of mines and was a **** about it? Does that warrant such happiness of her death and hatred for her in general? Oh well.

Yeah, but I think it's more the fact that those mines she closed were the only industry in the area for the men who worked there, so the inhabitants lost everything in the loss of that one job.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So she closed a couple of mines and was a **** about it? Does that warrant such happiness of her death and hatred for her in general? Oh well.

If you depended on those mines to support yourself and/or your family and could not find employment elsewhere, then yes. She(and her policies) ruined lives and entire villages in her country, so it isn't exactly closing a "couple of mines" and being a bitch that caused her to be hated.