Disappearing Corpses

[LadyCrimson]

I remain pretty far from convinced that it's a problem, If "dead baddie at x+y coordinates" brings your computer to a standstill then you're going to have bigger problems trying to run games on it. and it's going to have to remember whether they are there or not anyway...unless you want everything to respawn constantly

Since a lot of games have trigger points for things/enemies (they aren't initially inserted in the game/level/area until you reach a certain distance from said point), you can easily start an area with very few enemies to render, then as you kill some and trigger more and keep going, they pile up, so now instead of a few initial enemies/bodies, you have dozens (or hundreds, or whatever). So if an area is large/open ended, it does add up. No different than how in some games/engines, even too many placed rocks/terrain items can cause issues. But these days, I don't think it'd be that big a deal in this sort of 2D game, unless one's computer is ancient or the engine itself is really limited in that fashion for some reason.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a programmer.

[Jarmo]

I'd prefer corpses lingering around for a while at least.

Even if only so you'll have to hide them so the guards won't notice, too simple and convenient if the ground swallows them immediately.

 

But disappearing corpses is nowhere near as immersion breaking as permanent ones.

Skyrim. You murder someone and toss her body in the middle of the village inn... to find it still there a week later.

Merry customers enjoying their ales, not minding the putrid smell one bit.

 

Red stains work for me. Though if in the inn, those should disappear as well, after a while.

[Lephys]

But disappearing corpses is nowhere near as immersion breaking as permanent ones.

 

I dunno... so long as they move around and try to ravenously kill things once in a while, I don't mind.

 

In all seriousness, though, I don't think corpses "disappearing" is a problem. But, corpses literally disappearing is a slight problem. Even if the whole corpses actually go missing, it'd be awesome if some remnants of things remained (things the wolves didn't eat, damaged stuff that no salvagers/bandits/main-road-cleaner-uppers wanted, etc.), such as rusted/broken swords, pieces of helmets or leather, strips of broken mail, perhaps a boot stuck in the mud, etc. Just SOMETHING to say "there were actually dead things here recently, even though you see no dead things here now."

 

Of course, even that stuff could "fade out" eventually, getting washed away by rains, or enveloped by dirt/foliage, etc. It would just be a pleasing touch, more than anything. But, I'm not a fan of things like a corpse simply vanishing the instant the last object has been looted from it.

[JFSOCC]

especially games with stealth, like Alpha Protocol, where bodies lying around should alert enemies, they just vanished.

[motorizer]

 

I remain pretty far from convinced that it's a problem, If "dead baddie at x+y coordinates" brings your computer to a standstill then you're going to have bigger problems trying to run games on it. and it's going to have to remember whether they are there or not anyway...unless you want everything to respawn constantly

Since a lot of games have trigger points for things/enemies (they aren't initially inserted in the game/level/area until you reach a certain distance from said point), you can easily start an area with very few enemies to render, then as you kill some and trigger more and keep going, they pile up, so now instead of a few initial enemies/bodies, you have dozens (or hundreds, or whatever). So if an area is large/open ended, it does add up. No different than how in some games/engines, even too many placed rocks/terrain items can cause issues. But these days, I don't think it'd be that big a deal in this sort of 2D game, unless one's computer is ancient or the engine itself is really limited in that fashion for some reason.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a programmer.

It may be the case that it's a resource hog, I'm not a programmer either, but I do get the impression from game forums that people just decide something is a problem, or a resource hog, or too much work.... without really knowing either way and without evidence...(this applies to a lot of issues, in fact it applies to nearly every issue   )

I've played dozens of games where corpses don't disappear, and I can't say it's ever been a problem (except when overdoing it with the battle size in warband, but that's a mod)

 

They should get cleaned up eventually, for the sake of realism, though replacing them with a rotting corpse and carrion feeders (jagged alliance 2 style) would be cool

Edited March 27, 2013 by motorizer

[Lephys]

It may be the case that it's a resource hog, I'm not a programmer either, but I do get the impression from game forums that people just decide something is a problem, or a resource hog, or too much work.... without really knowing either way and without evidence...(this applies to a lot of issues, in fact it applies to nearly every issue   )

They just don't wanna strain the forums with too many possibilities lying around. That's all.

 

[pipboy2000]

this might be of interest for you: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62339-enemy-bodies-disappearing-right-away-or-turning-into-bags-of-loot/

[rjshae]

It can be immersion breaking if the other way around: the bodies never disappearing.  Having tons of bodies just lying everywhere can look...bad....

 

Equally immersion breaking is being able to walk through the corpses.

[Nonek]

I wouldn't mind if engaged in stealthy behaviour we had to stash corpses/the unconscious in darkened or secure areas, add another level to the stealth mechanic. Then again I suppose that if you're engaging in scouting being caught dragging a corpse might be a dangerous situation, especially if you're an Orlan or a skinny elf for whom a couple of hundred pounds of human is a real dead weight.

 

Might add an air of danger and desperation if the bodies of slain guards were always in danger of discovery, and your infiltration had to be conducted in a quick, and dirty fashion. Or mayhap one could use tools such as dust of disappearance, a Ciphers illusions or a bottle of potent alchemists acid to hide/get rid of the evidence. Druids summoning a horde of vermin to devour the bodies, wizards transmuting them into another form.

 

Perhaps even a cannibalistic companion or devouring pet, maybe thieves can call on shadow soul powers to enwrap their victims as they rot/slumber?

Edited March 28, 2013 by Nonek

[necromate]

 

It can be immersion breaking if the other way around: the bodies never disappearing.  Having tons of bodies just lying everywhere can look...bad....

 

Equally immersion breaking is being able to walk through the corpses.

Yes! It would be really cool if the character would not just walk trough corpses, but jump over them (different animations), or smash giant ogre corpses to pieces if they are in tha way

[Lephys]

Yes! It would be really cool if the character would not just walk trough corpses, but jump over them (different animations), or smash giant ogre corpses to pieces if they are in tha way

What if you could manipulate them, as objects, with any telekinetic (or similar) abilities, and use them as barricades (by moving them telekinetically or simply physically), or to slow the advance of incoming foes (because they'd have to pass trip checks if moving at a run)? *Chin stroke of pondrance*

 

I don't think you should ever have to worry about tripping over them or anything of that nature outside of combat, though. And, even then, it should probably only be while moving quickly, and/or performing combat maneuvers.

[mkreku]

Two Worlds 2 is the only game I know where bodies are interactive after death, so to speak. When the body is on the ground, the player can climb on top of them. Or kick them around (if I remember correctly). At least I remember that they retain their hit-boxes.

 

I loved that. Two Worlds 2 might have been a boring game, but they certainly did some things right. Physics was one of those things.

[VladWorks]

_{I just think (at least temporary) non-disappearing corpses will not only help with immersion aspect, but will create a useful skill for  thief/assassin *like* class with skill to dispose of corpses quickly so as not to alert an npc in certain environment that will yell or alarm others when they see a dead body around. I like Jagged Alliance 2's idea of rotting corpses, as a matter of fact this is my idea of a perfect way to handle corpses in an rpg game.}

[Lephys]

Two Worlds 2 is the only game I know where bodies are interactive after death, so to speak. When the body is on the ground, the player can climb on top of them. Or kick them around (if I remember correctly). At least I remember that they retain their hit-boxes.

 

I loved that. Two Worlds 2 might have been a boring game, but they certainly did some things right. Physics was one of those things.

That's nicer than zero interactivity, but I'd almost prefer physics to only work when it matters. In other words... it's nice that you can still fire arrows into a corpse's arm and it'll move in an uber-realistic fashion from the force of the blow, but in what way does that EVER apply to the gameplay or affect anything? Now, if the corpse moves when you use the "kick" ability because you can actually target the corpse with it and you're a super strong Fighter, and enemies will be stricken by the corpse and affected, then cool. OR, if you can intentionally pile up corpses to form a sort of bulwark against oncoming attackers, then cool.

 

But, that whole passive "Look, the movement of my character sort of almost accidentally affects these corpses" thing, while very nice and realistic, doesn't really help the game any. I mean, if the rest of the game needs good physics (like attacks landing, or people dying/being stricken by heavy objects, etc.), then I understand why they wouldn't simply turn physics off in certain situations when it wasn't needed. Rather, I would like to see abilities and actions specifically designed to take advantage of the physics.

 

A good example I can think of would be hiding bodies in a stealth game. It's awesome if there's super great ragdoll-type physics with the limp bodies, but my character should be able to do more than simply pick up the body, move to face a closet, then drop the body in a very generic fashion, hoping that it falls in such a way that the door should close.

 

In that scenario, I'd MUCH rather have worse physics throughout the whole game and a functional ability to intentionally make sure the entire body is placed neatly into a closet than I would have the awesome physics throughout, and the extremely rudimentary interaction with those physics.

[nikolokolus]

I'm guessing the world of Eternity has wild dogs and vultures right?  Corpses do disappear after time ... but maybe they should leave behind some moldering bones?

[mkreku]

 

Two Worlds 2 is the only game I know where bodies are interactive after death, so to speak. When the body is on the ground, the player can climb on top of them. Or kick them around (if I remember correctly). At least I remember that they retain their hit-boxes.

 

I loved that. Two Worlds 2 might have been a boring game, but they certainly did some things right. Physics was one of those things.

That's nicer than zero interactivity, but I'd almost prefer physics to only work when it matters. In other words... it's nice that you can still fire arrows into a corpse's arm and it'll move in an uber-realistic fashion from the force of the blow, but in what way does that EVER apply to the gameplay or affect anything? Now, if the corpse moves when you use the "kick" ability because you can actually target the corpse with it and you're a super strong Fighter, and enemies will be stricken by the corpse and affected, then cool. OR, if you can intentionally pile up corpses to form a sort of bulwark against oncoming attackers, then cool.

 

But, that whole passive "Look, the movement of my character sort of almost accidentally affects these corpses" thing, while very nice and realistic, doesn't really help the game any. I mean, if the rest of the game needs good physics (like attacks landing, or people dying/being stricken by heavy objects, etc.), then I understand why they wouldn't simply turn physics off in certain situations when it wasn't needed. Rather, I would like to see abilities and actions specifically designed to take advantage of the physics.

 

A good example I can think of would be hiding bodies in a stealth game. It's awesome if there's super great ragdoll-type physics with the limp bodies, but my character should be able to do more than simply pick up the body, move to face a closet, then drop the body in a very generic fashion, hoping that it falls in such a way that the door should close.

 

In that scenario, I'd MUCH rather have worse physics throughout the whole game and a functional ability to intentionally make sure the entire body is placed neatly into a closet than I would have the awesome physics throughout, and the extremely rudimentary interaction with those physics.

I understand a feature like this sound pointless and something not worth spending valuable development time on. But it's not until it's not there and corpses either disappear (which breaks my immersion) or act like balloons (player can walk straight through them) that you realize what a difference it makes.

 

The same thing happened in the Gothic game series. It started off by having swimming, climbing and diving. I remember walking through a dark forest as a weak newbie when I was suddenly attacked by wolves. In panic I climbed a tree and sat there on a branch, fruitlessly firing arrows into the circling wolves beneath. Until I fell down and was ripped to pieces.

 

In the later Gothic games they replaced their trees with SpeedTree..thingies. The thingies were not climbable. Boy, did I miss that feature! I took it for granted when it was there and didn't realize how ground-breaking this feature was until it was removed (name me ONE other RPG that lets you escape enemies by climbing a tree!).

 

Sometimes it's the little details that makes the big difference.

[mkreku]

Btw, corpses didn't disappear immediately in the Gothic games either:

 

 

They disappeared when you switched chapters. I had a picture with maybe 30 corpses lying on the ground, but this was the only one I could find for now.

[VladWorks]

Like someone had pointed out (referring to Jagged Alliance 2) withered away corpse to be placed in place of the humanoid ones (at least), I believe that game handled corpses perfectly and efficiently, I'm pretty sure that this method also made rendering things a lot easier since you didn't had to draw all those un-necessary polygons, add physics per each dead body in your FOV i.e. Two Worlds 2.

Edited April 4, 2013 by VladWorks

[Lephys]

I understand a feature like this sound pointless and something not worth spending valuable development time on. But it's not until it's not there and corpses either disappear (which breaks my immersion) or act like balloons (player can walk straight through them) that you realize what a difference it makes.

I'm not sure to which feature you're referring. I don't want corpses to magically vanish before our eyes, nor do I WANT to be able to walk straight through corpses. I merely pointed out that, if given a choice between walking straight through corpses and being able to get around, or having the super awesome realism of having to actually go around corpses but not really having the functionality in the game to easily do so (thus making corpses into inherent obstacles when they should simply be interactive objects), I'd go with the former any day.

 

Functionality is ALWAYS better than aesthetics. I didn't say "aesthetics are bad, and we shouldn't have spiffy physics on corpses." I just don't want that stuff in lieu of the functional ability to not be drastically inhibited by something as simple as felling some enemies in a room.

 

"Oh, we've felled this troll in this small dungeon room, but it just so happens he's fallen by the door! Thanks to the perfectly realistic physics in this game, we have absolutely no way of moving his 1,200-lb corpse, because they just thought it would be cool if corpses affected movement/access, but didn't make sure things worked the other way around. Guess we won't be going down THAT hallway... but hey! At least his arm jiggles when I shoot an arrow into it! 8D!"

 

That's the type of scenario I want to avoid. Specifically. That's why it's generally better to have somewhat abstracted physics. Sometimes, by the time you've gotten your functional interactivity caught up to the detriments of your physics, extremely simple RPG tasks have become 7-minute endeavors (like having to somehow rig up an elaborate pulley system using character skills and stats, simply to move a troll that wasn't even intended to block a door in the first place).

[LadyCrimson]

I merely pointed out that, if given a choice between walking straight through corpses and being able to get around, or having the super awesome realism of having to actually go around corpses but not really having the functionality in the game to easily do so (thus making corpses into inherent obstacles when they should simply be interactive objects), I'd go with the former any day.

 

Functionality is ALWAYS better than aesthetics. I didn't say "aesthetics are bad, and we shouldn't have spiffy physics on corpses." I just don't want that stuff in lieu of the functional ability to not be drastically inhibited by something as simple as felling some enemies in a room.

 

Once, in Borderlands 2, one of those loot-chest-on-the-back goons appeared inside a tiny building as I entered. I backed up and ended up killing him so his corpse fell in front of the door. The problem was, the quest required me to grab something from inside that building and now I had a corpse blocking the small doorway. I couldn't go around. I couldn't jump over. I couldn't crouch and go under. I had to either leave the area (marching all the way back to the point on the map where I could do so), or exit the game/restart, or stand around picking my nose waiting for the corpse to disappear on its own (maybe 15 minutes).

 

Now, BL2 doesn't have "realistic" corpse physics or anything, but regardless, that was really really annoying and I do not want. If you are to have "realistic physics" with corpses, the game must not create such scenarios/must account for all possible playstyles/actions/terrain to prevent such things from occurring. Is it silly to be able to walk through corpses? Yes. Is it weird if corpses disappear after 60 seconds or the instant you loot them or something? Yes. Is it nice to have more realism re: corpses or anything else where possible? Yes.

 

Is it fun if those mechanics interfere with you being able to do a quest or making you wait? No.

 

In short, I agree with Lephy's.

[Frenetic Pony]

There's PC's that have 16+ gigs of ram, 6 gigs of video ram, and are nearly triple the GPU power of the PS4, not including SLI/Crossfire stuff. There's no question it can be technically done.

 

But then you come across removing bodies in a lore manner. I.E. whenever it makes sense story wise. Obviously a body in the middle of a city will be removed far faster than one decomposing in the middle of nowhere. Which means there'd need to be some sort of "body removal" variable programmed for each area. Which while minor to accomplish, is just another thing to do for each and every area for a rather silly little detail.

 

As for physics, you'd have to think of minimum specs, collision is expensive (relatively). Realistic collision tied to animation might be really cool for a PS4 game, but I'm pretty sure the PE team would rather have less work and lower min specs than a bunch of "Corpse physics" to deal with.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Frenetic Pony

[mkreku]

 

I understand a feature like this sound pointless and something not worth spending valuable development time on. But it's not until it's not there and corpses either disappear (which breaks my immersion) or act like balloons (player can walk straight through them) that you realize what a difference it makes.

"Oh, we've felled this troll in this small dungeon room, but it just so happens he's fallen by the door! Thanks to the perfectly realistic physics in this game, we have absolutely no way of moving his 1,200-lb corpse, because they just thought it would be cool if corpses affected movement/access, but didn't make sure things worked the other way around. Guess we won't be going down THAT hallway... but hey! At least his arm jiggles when I shoot an arrow into it! 8D!"

 

That's the type of scenario I want to avoid. 

 

Is it fun if those mechanics interfere with you being able to do a quest or making you wait? No.

 

I agree with both of you. That's not a situation that's ideal.

 

But both your solutions is to limit the features of the game to make sure nothing can be broken. My solution would be to call my mightiest mage, bomb the nearest wall with a fireball and crawl out through the hole. See? Breakable walls (more features, even better physics) solves the problem.

[oneda]

If not all dead monsters can stay on the screen then let some explode because you did too much damage to them like in icewind dale. If some do have to disappear at some point do anything you want but don't make something like in doom 3 where the monsters just vanish in an absolutely uncool way. That sparkling effect was supposed to look like theyr burning up or what not, no idea, but it totally sucked. Hated it every single time. Well, the entire game sucked.

 

Good way is super fast decomposition (like in warcraft 3?). At least it is better than monsters just disappearing.

[Lephys]

I agree with both of you. That's not a situation that's ideal.

 

But both your solutions is to limit the features of the game to make sure nothing can be broken. My solution would be to call my mightiest mage, bomb the nearest wall with a fireball and crawl out through the hole. See? Breakable walls (more features, even better physics) solves the problem.

I fear there's still a slight misunderstanding. Our solution isn't to limit everything so you never have to deal with the potential for annoyance. Our solution would be to deal with the annoyance. If you can't deal with it in any other way than to limit the systems, then sure, limit them. But if you can simply allow people to easily move corpses and such, then that works just fine, too.

 

The point is, that dead thing's corpse was in no way intended to block your path. Especially not just because it happenstancically fell in front of a doorway, or on top of a treasure chest. So, in that situation, the ability to use the doorway or chest/container is infinitely more valuable than the realism of the corpse falling where it may and retaining collision-detection. Like I said, that just needs to be considered, is all, so that a solution can be found. The solution is not automatically "Just don't even put anything even resembling physics into the game. I want to run through enemies in the middle of combat and have spells and arrows go through boulders and walls."

 

Also, as much as the idea of breakable walls rocks (it really does), that would present some problems in the rest of the game. If you could break whatever wall you wanted, what would stop you from waltzing around town, exploding the palace/castle walls? Or, what if you used explosive spells in combat, with only the intention of felling foes, but you caused the entire room to collapse? (which, again, would actually be pretty cool, but could prevent you from completing integral story content) And if it doesn't collapse, then that's not very realistic. So, if you limit it, and you can only explode CERTAIN walls, or your corridors can only SOMETIMES collapse, so as to keep them from blocking you off from the core content completion, then what's the point in your half-realism at that point? You're getting all of the cons, and hardly any of the benefit.

 

Stuff like that... it just has to be heavily considered, is all, before deciding. It's not out of the question or anything. But you don't want to create a new problem with a solution to an existing one. Just takes some hashing out and tweaking. 8P

Edited April 6, 2013 by Lephys

[necromate]

If not all dead monsters can stay on the screen then let some explode because you did too much damage to them like in icewind dale. If some do have to disappear at some point do anything you want but don't make something like in doom 3 where the monsters just vanish in an absolutely uncool way. That sparkling effect was supposed to look like theyr burning up or what not, no idea, but it totally sucked. Hated it every single time. Well, the entire game sucked.

 

Good way is super fast decomposition (like in warcraft 3?). At least it is better than monsters just disappearing.

Oh I love in icewind dale how the monsters explode and their corpse's pieces fly away in 360deg, and the sound effect :D perfect...

 

would be boring though if all corpses did same...

 

how about vultures swooping down or giant rats eating on the bodies in open areas, worms/bugs pulling them under in caves, disintegrated by lightning enchantments in wizard towers, piranhas attacking them in the waters, tree trunks in the cursed forest, undead pulling them under near cemeteries,  rabid dogs in the slums, guards taking them away on city streets, enchanted floor eats them up in one giant bite in a magical castle...

oh, oh, and how about valkyrie like hot babes coming for the good NPC-s, while demons take down the wicked ones? :D