Weapon Familiarity, normal weapons and weapon upgrades

[TrashMan]

BASIC IDEA:

- the longer you use a weapon the more accustomed you get to it. After a while you start getting familiarity bonuses, since the weapon has become an extension of yourself. Small bonuses to hit/defense?

 

IMPLEMENTATION:

- track familiarity value for each weapon? Seems simpler than tracking it on a per-character basis.

Basicly, an arry with the characters ID and familiarity would be attached to each weapon.

 

So if your PC used sword #158 for a while and then gave it to Forton, the sword would have two entries, for PC and Forton. Something like:

ID000   150       <--- PC

ID004    21        <---- some other party member

 

The value to track to determine familiarity - number of sucesfull attacks? If it's kills it seems abusable (switch weapon when enemy is near death to get a kill)

 

Since magical weapon would appear later in the game, this gives mundane weapons more utility, is somewhat realistic...and if you happen to get a magical weapon early.. SCORE!

 

 

ADDEDNDUM:

- weapon upgrades?

- weapon customization?

If you get to forge your own weapon (or better yet have a weapon forged for you) the abiltiy to customize it. Apperance wise, because of zoom there would be no need for a different model, but the icon and weapon description could differ. You can make a weapon unique in apperance.

Also, maybe even sligtly different bonuses? If for example, you put parrying hooks on a sword you get a parry bonus. A bigger pommel foor more crushing damage/better balance? Etc...

 

 

MUNDANE WEAPONS

Should be viable for the entire game. A masterwork sword of high quality steel (or some other metal) may not be magical, but it would still be extreemly deadly.

 

QUEST TIE-IN:

Quests to make your own weapon or upgrade your existing one?

Familiarity treshold necessary?

[IndiraLightfoot]

Great thread!

 

As I said in that pther thread, I reckon shields too would fit this familiarity scheme perfectly (but not armour items).

I also think that you should be able to get to name weapons after you've had them for a substantial via that tracking system you discuss, Thrashman. I mean, people today name their cars and computers, so why not. Archaeological finds in Early Iron Age Europe (like 1,500 years ago) show that weapons like spears and also jewellery had names engraved in them (and that in a time when the FUTARK-alphabet was new and presumable "magic" in itself). So once you get to name a weapon perhaps som perk is in order?

 

Obviously, a little weapon swapping shouldn't mean that you immediately loose those familiarty points on a favourite weapon, so there is a need for a simple, fair and clearcut system that recognizes these familiar weapons and shields.

 

The bottom line is: There should be rewards for sticking to a weapon, and that goes for magical weapons too, no?

[TrashMan]

Yes, there are historical examples of named weapons. It is generally the wielder that makes the weapon legendary/famous

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_swords

[TRX850]

If they implement weapon degradation (weapon fatigue), and you can re-sharpen it with a honing stone, that means that the more you use your weapon, the more often you have to hone it, and so maybe that can add to or speed up the process of perks from familiarization.  (Your weapon "likes" being honed by you).  Crushing weapons would need some other method though.

[Gfted1]

Isnt this the same thing as weapon proficiencies? Every few levels you get to add another pip to a certain weapon style.

[rjshae]

BASIC IDEA:

- the longer you use a weapon the more accustomed you get to it. After a while you start getting familiarity bonuses, since the weapon has become an extension of yourself. Small bonuses to hit/defense?

 

Yes, this has been discussed before. You get used to the quirks of a weapon, and so it becomes slightly more effective. Another way to factor this is that mundane weapons come with a penalty at first, which fades away after you wield it for a while.

 

 

MUNDANE WEAPONS

Should be viable for the entire game. A masterwork sword of high quality steel (or some other metal) may not be magical, but it would still be extreemly deadly.

 

I have some difficulty accepting this. A PoS weapon is still a PoS weapon, even if you've wielded it for a decade. Some weapons are simply going to be better than others. A masterwork weapon may remain perfectly viable against lesser foes for the entire game, but you should run into significant difficulties against the more potent enemies. Maybe you need to be a level or two higher to face the same foe with your trusty, but ordinary broadsword.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Rjshae: remarkable objections, no doubt!

 

Personally, I think that the idea of some kind of evolution of specific weapons is very appealing. If you stick to it (magic or not), there can be development and choices around the corner, almost as if the weapon itself was levelling up from time to time.

[Jarmo]

 

 

>MUNDANE WEAPONS

Should be viable for the entire game. A masterwork sword of high quality steel (or some other metal) may not be magical, but it would still be extreemly deadly.

 

I have some difficulty accepting this. A PoS weapon is still a PoS weapon, even if you've wielded it for a decade. Some weapons are simply going to be better than others. A masterwork weapon may remain perfectly viable against lesser foes for the entire game, but you should run into significant difficulties against the more potent enemies. Maybe you need to be a level or two higher to face the same foe with your trusty, but ordinary broadsword.

 

 

 

Then again... if you could take your trusty blade and get an enchantment or two placed on it by some arcane smithery...

well maybe it still wouldn't be up to the same level as the truly legendary magic weapons, but maybe it could be near enough?

 

Not what Trashman had in mind I'm sure, but it'd work for me...

[Amentep]

Isnt this the same thing as weapon proficiencies? Every few levels you get to add another pip to a certain weapon style.

 

Weapons proficiencies say you're good with any long sword; weapon familiarity says that experience with a particular longsword has made you better at using that particular sword.  You know its balance, its heft.  It has become a third arm for your character.

 

If it were implemented I'd think that not using the weapon should eventually end the "familiarity" status - if you give the weapon to Forton and then after many encounters you pick it up, it shouldn't feel familiar as it did.  I recently had to get a loaner car while mine was in the shop (I've been driving mine for a very long time) and I was totally messed up when it came to where anything in the new car was.  And then I drove it for awhile and when I got my car back I kept trying to grab the windshield wipers in the wrong place and stuff.  Because I'd begun to be accustomed to the other car.

 

The thing I like about this idea is that it gives a way to keep magical loot special without necessarily having the player level-up to get some benefit from their actions.  So it could be cool.

[Gfted1]

Ah, I thought he meant weapon type, not a singular specific weapon.

 

In that case, it sounds like a terrible system for me. I imagine, until close to endgame, I will be constantly upgrading my weapons to whatever I find that is better and I would want to "start over" every time I do so.

[TrashMan]

Isnt this the same thing as weapon proficiencies? Every few levels you get to add another pip to a certain weapon style.

 

 

No. Weapon proficiencies are tied to a specific weapon type - they are basicly training with a weapon type/class.

 

This is tied to an individual weapon.

 

 

 

 

In that case, it sounds like a terrible system for me. I imagine, until close to endgame, I will be constantly upgrading my weapons to whatever I find that is better and I would want to "start over" every time I do so.

 

I find constant switching of weapons boriung and soulless.

Fomr +1 to +2 to +3 to +4. That feels liek Diabo and NOT like an epic adventure. 

Practicly all epic heros have a signature weapon. They don't have an armory.

Edited February 15, 2013 by TrashMan

[TrashMan]

I have some difficulty accepting this. A PoS weapon is still a PoS weapon, even if you've wielded it for a decade. Some weapons are simply going to be better than others. A masterwork weapon may remain perfectly viable against lesser foes for the entire game, but you should run into significant difficulties against the more potent enemies. Maybe you need to be a level or two higher to face the same foe with your trusty, but ordinary broadsword.

 

 

Why would a mastercrafted sword be a PoS weapon? Why would you even consider it such? Because it's not magical?

[Gfted1]

I find constant switching of weapons boriung and soulless.

Fomr +1 to +2 to +3 to +4. That feels liek Diabo and NOT like an epic adventure. 

Practicly all epic heros have a signature weapon. They don't have an armory.

It would be cool to have weapons that earned experience and thus leveled up the more you used them. But using the same Mundane Barrel Sword the whole game? No thanks.

[rjshae]

 

I have some difficulty accepting this. A PoS weapon is still a PoS weapon, even if you've wielded it for a decade. Some weapons are simply going to be better than others. A masterwork weapon may remain perfectly viable against lesser foes for the entire game, but you should run into significant difficulties against the more potent enemies. Maybe you need to be a level or two higher to face the same foe with your trusty, but ordinary broadsword.

 

Why would a mastercrafted sword be a PoS weapon? Why would you even consider it such? Because it's not magical?

 

My point being that gaining mastery in any weapon does not make it a better weapon. You can only carry compensating for a weapon's particular limitations so far.

[IndiraLightfoot]

My point being that gaining mastery in any weapon does not make it a better weapon. You can only carry compensating for a weapon's particular limitations so far.

 

Interesting point, and it actually implies magic when weapons do get better that way. Once again, man yf those magical weapons of yore in medieval legends got to be magical because of its former wielder. If a highly esteemed chieftain or a king successful on the battlefield had used the weapon, it had somehow gotten charged with power and magic. Thus, this would be great for our heroes as well. A mundane weapon that they use for their great or dirty deeds turn magical over time and you get to level it up, etc. But mind you, this require magic to begin with, so wherever we turn, a weapon familiarity system of this sort will mean mundane weapons turning magical in a slow process that we as players get to steer a bit. The other stuff, where you get better using a particular weapon, it is a matter of weapon proficiencies and the like.

[TrashMan]

 

I find constant switching of weapons boriung and soulless.

Fomr +1 to +2 to +3 to +4. That feels liek Diabo and NOT like an epic adventure. 

Practicly all epic heros have a signature weapon. They don't have an armory.

It would be cool to have weapons that earned experience and thus leveled up the more you used them. But using the same Mundane Barrel Sword the whole game? No thanks.

 

A sword forged by a master smith from rare ores is hardly "mundane".

I'm against only magic making weapons better.

Mechanicly speaking there is not much difference between a +1 magical bonus or +1 bonus because quality of smithing or materials used. But there is a difference in feel/atmosphere.

 

Hell, I'm against any greater damage range in weapons. I HATE it when games start you off with a dagger that does 10 damage, only to end up with a dagger that does 1000 dmg.

 

I guess some people want a normal longsword to deal 1d8 dmg and a magical longsword to deal 1d8+20 and shoot fireballs and level continents. I don't.

I personally don't want too much emphasis put on loot/items/magic.

[rjshae]

 

My point being that gaining mastery in any weapon does not make it a better weapon. You can only carry compensating for a weapon's particular limitations so far.

 

Interesting point, and it actually implies magic when weapons do get better that way. Once again, man yf those magical weapons of yore in medieval legends got to be magical because of its former wielder. If a highly esteemed chieftain or a king successful on the battlefield had used the weapon, it had somehow gotten charged with power and magic. Thus, this would be great for our heroes as well. A mundane weapon that they use for their great or dirty deeds turn magical over time and you get to level it up, etc. But mind you, this require magic to begin with, so wherever we turn, a weapon familiarity system of this sort will mean mundane weapons turning magical in a slow process that we as players get to steer a bit. The other stuff, where you get better using a particular weapon, it is a matter of weapon proficiencies and the like.

 

Would you be willing to spend the equivalent of feats to bestow your favorite weapon with magic-like properties? Or should it just automatically happen?

[Gfted1]

A sword forged by a master smith from rare ores is hardly "mundane".

I'm against only magic making weapons better.

Mechanicly speaking there is not much difference between a +1 magical bonus or +1 bonus because quality of smithing or materials used. But there is a difference in feel/atmosphere.

 

Hell, I'm against any greater damage range in weapons. I HATE it when games start you off with a dagger that does 10 damage, only to end up with a dagger that does 1000 dmg.

 

I guess some people want a normal longsword to deal 1d8 dmg and a magical longsword to deal 1d8+20 and shoot fireballs and level continents. I don't.

I personally don't want too much emphasis put on loot/items/magic.

I see where you are coming from. By endgame, I prefer high magic and powerful weapons. Im all for atmosphere, cool lore, or being able to enchant or quest for it, or making it by assembling pieces.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Hmm,  I love the idea of loyalty to a particular weapon - and that sticking to it should be rewarded. So, the longer you use it, the more levelling possibilities you get on the weapon (and not on your pc). It's a single weapon thing, not a singe pc thing, and the levelling is "automagical", but you, the player, get to pick choices in a perk tree or something. So, the spending would never lessen the character's pool of perk picks (including weapon proficiency, power attacks, etc), the spending is of feats unique to a weapon familarity system.

[Pipyui]

I kinda liked in Fable 3(?) how your weapons had "achievements" you could earn with them to improve their attributes or add effects.  I think it'd be neat if some weapons in PE evolved in a similar fashion, with one or more "achievements" to ... achieve.  A void dagger that "levels up" if you kill so many innocents, a holy mace that levels after killing enough undead, betrayal's axe which improves significantly in power for each party member that dies, a greedy grimoir that starts with a single spell slot but can be upgrading by feeding it exhorborant amounts of coin (to a limit; ok, so maybe this item shouldn't really count), I remember in Fable there was a Swinger's Sword that gained elemental effects or something for sleeping with X men and X women, etc.

 

I think some weapons like this or implementing something similar might be neat.  Your weapon may not level infinitely (?), but gives you fun goals to strive for, and you might find yourself attached to it even.

[JOG]

Great Idea. Computer games too often have us constantly replace equipment, a weapon is a classic trademark, where others use .32 colts shotguns or SMGs, dependend on the threat they face, the true badass always sticks to "the most powerful handgun in the world".

[rjshae]

Hmm,  I love the idea of loyalty to a particular weapon - and that sticking to it should be rewarded. So, the longer you use it, the more levelling possibilities you get on the weapon (and not on your pc). It's a single weapon thing, not a singe pc thing, and the levelling is "automagical", but you, the player, get to pick choices in a perk tree or something. So, the spending would never lessen the character's pool of perk picks (including weapon proficiency, power attacks, etc), the spending is of feats unique to a weapon familarity system.

 

Okay, but there are some considerations with respect to the game length and balance. If a character sticks with a single weapon for decades and achieves some phenomenal accomplishments, I could see a strong character endowing the weapon with a certain aura. But how long do you need to keep using a weapon before you start to see it reflected in the capabilities? By the time that happens the character may have already had multiple opportunities to upgrade, so there must be some reason to stick with the older weapon. One way to reward that behavior is to punish weapon switching. But is that really fair to the player who wants to play with the best tools available? Further, if each weapon is to acquire powers merely by being wielded, what would be the benefit of switching to something else or of working to gain enchantments? The logical conclusion is that personal endowment of weapons either needs to trail other means of weaponry improvement, or improvement of that weapon should require some significant sacrifice on the part of the player.

Edited February 16, 2013 by rjshae

[Gfted1]

Ironically, a levelling weapon would have to earn kill XP. 

[Pipyui]

Ironically, a levelling weapon would have to earn kill XP. 

So that's where it's been going.  I always wondered why my sword felt so heavy after a good slaying.  So it wasn't fatigue or moral guilt!

You know, all and all, I could maybe find this acceptable.

[rjshae]

 

Ironically, a levelling weapon would have to earn kill XP. 

So that's where it's been going.  I always wondered why my sword felt so heavy after a good slaying.  So it wasn't fatigue or moral guilt!

You know, all and all, I could maybe find this acceptable.

 

Yes, that's probably a decent approach, especially given the fact that XP may not be otherwise awarded for combat and that the armor system may encourage weapon swapping. But what happens if you swap your now enchanted personal weapon with another party member? Does it still accrue XP for kills? Do the powers go away?