Diseases in PE

[maggotheart]

Should there be diseases in PE, and if so how should they work? Should a disease be permanent until cured, or should you be able to rest it off? Should there be only one disease effect, or many different ones? What should the effects be?

 

Possible durations of disease:

 

1. Duration of combat - I dont think this works logically, you should at least have to rest to get over an illness

2. Persistent until resting - this is how most disease should work as its the simplest solution, imo

3. Persistent until resting a certain number of times - im not sure how workable this would be as it would encourage rest spamming

4. Permanent until cured - this might be too annoying to deal with, but it could work as part of a quest

 

If there were more than one type of disease in the game, they could cause many different effects such as slow, attribute penalties and HP damage.

 

Diseases could have a life cycle where the penalties start small, then grow larger over time (presumably until resting)

 

Diseases could be contagious, spreading to nearby characters (or monsters)

 

Diseases in PE could also be spiritual, affecting your ability to access your soul powers

 

Different races could be affected by their own special diseases, or react differently to the same disease

 

How would disease have affected the cultural development of the populations of the world? In our own history, disease has been the deciding factor in many large scale troop engagements, changing the outcomes of wars and even the very course of civilizations. With no magic healers in the game, disease will likely have had the same impact on the world of PE. A lot of scientific examination of diseases will likely have taken place by some cultures of the world.

 

 

 

[TRX850]

I'd say the disease duration would be a mix of points (2) and (4) for the same reasons you gave.

 

I remember a few years ago when bird flu was in danger of becoming a pandemic.  They interviewed a "contagion specialist" who said in a worst case scenario where vaccines were in limited supply, there was a list of professions who would receive it, and in what order.  Any idea who was at the top of that list?  It wasn't military personnel.  It wasn't government officials, or politicians.  I wasn't even medical staff.  At the top of the list was....undertakers.

 

Because only the living can bury the dead.  How scary is that?

[Lephys]

Because only the living can bury the dead.  How scary is that?

Not true. Avalanches and mudslides and storms can bury the dead, too, and they're not alive. u_u

 

 

I think diseases would be awesome if they were worked in well. I think they need to be more than just a debuff. I'd like to see them be a unique factor in dialogues and quest progressions, etc.

[TRX850]

^^^^ Factoring it in dialogue would make sense.  Imagine if your party diplomat was diseased and attempting to negotiate an important plot point.

 

Surely the plot character would have some kind of negative reaction.

[Lephys]

Surely the plot character would have some kind of negative reaction.

What if impoverished folk, who had the disease themselves, would actually react POSITIVELY? That would be interesting.

 

"We feel you're like one of us, because you're having to put up with the Fidgets, too!"

 

Also, there should be a disease called "The Fidgets." -10 to Bowmanship, Lockpicking, and Inconspicuosity.

[Wirdjos]

Amazing username post combination, OP. TRX850 and Lephys, wonderful banter. With that recognized, on to content!

 

 

Diseases could have a life cycle where the penalties start small, then grow larger over time (presumably until resting)

 

I really like this idea. Not only does it add to realism, but it forces me to take the mechanic seriously and pay attention. What's only a minor (unnoticed) nuisance in the encounter I contract it turns the sick party member into dead weight once I've travelled around a bit and run into another encounter.

 

[Lephys]

^ True. In so many other games, you get that "Oh no, you've got lockwrist! -1 to Dex." And you could pretty much live with that for the rest of the game, really. It's such a minor penalty.

 

Fallout: NV's hardcore mode had the hydration issues that got worse the more dehydrated you got, etc. Of course, they did that with radiation poisoning WELL before New Vegas, methinks (I think it might've been in Fallout 1?).

 

But, yes, they can have minor effects, but need to worsen with time (like an infection you just don't do anything about). Maybe there's even a chance your character's body can fight them off on its own (Constitution? Fortitude?)? And, while they can totally affect stats and skills and whatnot, I think they should affect much more than that.

[Wirdjos]

 

But, yes, they can have minor effects, but need to worsen with time (like an infection you just don't do anything about). Maybe there's even a chance your character's body can fight them off on its own (Constitution? Fortitude?)? And, while they can totally affect stats and skills and whatnot, I think they should affect much more than that.

 

There's the beauty of the snowball effect. As in real illness, the initial symptoms would be localized and not all that bad. However, when left untreated the illness tends to spiral and affect other body parts. Say the first signs of the disease is a little stiffness in the limbs. Well, that gives a -2 to dexterity. Ignored, that develops into a nasty cough. Add -15 stealth to that -2 dexterity. That cough becomes a fever which weakens the character. -6 strength. After having a high fever for a number of hours, the character develops delirium. This is where things spiral widely out of control. Delirium starts with -7 intelligence and -9 charisma. If you hold onto that modifier for a relatively short amount of time, it turns into a general confusion and the character randomly goes into a berserk state, possibly attacking party members in the middle of buying supplies. So that's -2 dex, -6 str, -7 int, -9 cha, and -15 stealth on top of an unpredictable effect. I'd say that's quite a lot of things being affected by a disease that could have been prevented if you'd just been paying attention.

[maggotheart]

Amazing username post combination, OP. TRX850 and Lephys, wonderful banter. With that recognized, on to content!

 

 

Diseases could have a life cycle where the penalties start small, then grow larger over time (presumably until resting)

 

I really like this idea. Not only does it add to realism, but it forces me to take the mechanic seriously and pay attention. What's only a minor (unnoticed) nuisance in the encounter I contract it turns the sick party member into dead weight once I've travelled around a bit and run into another encounter.

 

There could be a simple 3 stage development for each disease, so something like:

 

Beggars Pox was acquired during encounter #1

 

Stage 1: Initial Onset

Symptoms - boils on the hands that are itchy and uncomfortable. A slight penalty is applied to hit rolls with a weapon.

 

These symptoms appear during encounter #1, and encounter #2. By encounter #3, the disease has progressed to the next stage:

 

Stage 2: Progression

Symptoms - boils become inflamed and unsightly, spreading to the feet and head, which makes walking and wearing boots and headwear painful. The character is slowed, moreso if they are wearing boots or a helmet.

 

These symptoms continue to plague the sufferer for encounter #4. By encounter #5, the disease has entered its final phase.

 

Stage 3: Acute

Symptoms - the boils burst and ooze pus, which dramatically increases the penalties on to hit rolls and movement speed. The character cannot wear boots or helmets and is repulsive to others. 

Edited February 8, 2013 by maggotheart

[Alexjh]

In terms of duration, generally speaking, I'd actually rather force the player to make some sort of saving throw against it until they managed to bypass the symptoms unless they were manually cured, this then simulates some characters being more resilient than others.  I'd also prefer it if different diseases had different cures, so it was more of an effort to avoid it and requires a bit more tactics than just stocking up on generic "cure disease" potions, and calling it a day.  Sure you could have a cure disiese potion that covered a couple of low end problems, but for medium to late game diseases you'd probably want increasingly expensive and rare cures to match increasingly rare diseases.  

[Darkpriest]

I'd say it depends on the type of a disease... some can be cured by resting if your CON is high enough. Others require a cure... be that spell or potion.

 

Take examples from real life... how many diseases are cured just by having a good dose of sleep? really few... and even them, when not treated seriously, can lead to some nasty outcomes.

[JFSOCC]

What about infectiousness? Can disease spread, if so, how fast?

[Umberlin]

Diseases at their most immersive, for me, in games, are when they also bordered - or outright were - at their most annoying. Different types of diseases, and poisons, in my mind, rather than, 'one poison' effect and 'one disease' effect as many games do, allow for a more balanced application of 'both'. You get your lighter, less impairing and less resounding effects, but also your rarer and nastier, more clingy, effects, at the same time. Balance out different effects with concepts like rarity of the disease or poison and the manner in which they spread/afflict, keeping things like duration and difficulty to remove (if they can be removed at all) in mind.

 

Sometimes the nastiest effects aren't always the most outright negative, take Vampirism in the early TES series, where is could balance itself between being a gift and a curse. A gift for statistical advantages. A curse for reactions from the local populace, and for the difficulty of removal if you didn't catch it, and remove it, before it fully came to fruition.

[IndiraLightfoot]

The spirit meter in MotB had all those elements. Some hated it (suprisingly many), others like me were on the fence at first, and a few were happy at the get-go. I agree with Umblerlin, though, the best diseases in games border on annoying. On rare occasions, there are diseases and the like in games that can be both a curse and a gift. In Might & Magic, at least in the later ones, you could become a playable lich, for instance.

[obsidiansquid]

Please don't make something like disease some overly complicated obnoxious feature. Sickness and disease have worked well in many other games and don't really need an overhaul here.

[Gfted1]

Being there is no healing or curative technology in the PE universe I prefer not having something else force me back to a rest spot. If it must be in then I choose option one above, that it only lasts the duration of combat. Between no in the field heath recovery, getting a disability every time you get knocked out and possibly persistant diseases, I think that would be too much.

[maggotheart]

What about infectiousness? Can disease spread, if so, how fast?

 

There was some discussion about a mechanic where each character would have an area around him that he can 'cover', preventing enemies from passing through and guarding allies in that threat range. That same radius could be used as a 'contagious zone', anything passing through would have a chance of catching the disease. Do I protect our flank and risk infecting my allies? There could be a map where you are travelling through an infected city, with lots of diseased NPCs. You would do well to avoid them, and in battle use ranged weapons.

 

 

 

Being there is no healing or curative technology in the PE universe I prefer not having something else force me back to a rest spot. If it must be in then I choose option one above, that it only lasts the duration of combat. Between no in the field heath recovery, getting a disability every time you get knocked out and possibly persistant diseases, I think that would be too much.

 

I get where you're coming from. But we do get stamina recovery, and disabilities replace getting killed, so I think theres some room for a few more combat effect mechanics in there. There could be per battle duration diseases out there alongside per rest duration ones.

Edited February 8, 2013 by maggotheart

[TRX850]

If the disease in question is a "natural", non-magical ailment, could druids and possibly clerics concoct a herbal remedy for it? (see link)

 

I'm looking for specific reasons why those two classes could shine when it comes to disease control.

[Gfted1]

I get where you're coming from. But we do get stamina recovery, and disabilities replace getting killed, so I think theres some room for a few more combat effect mechanics in there. There could be per battle duration diseases out there alongside per rest duration ones.

Im worried about the cumulative effects of all these mechanics. We already know that two things absolutely require you to go somewhere to rest, health damage and disabilities. Those can only be fixed by power napping. Now toss persistant diseases into the mix and keeping everyone upright and healthy becomes even more of a chore.

 

Imagine you have made it to level 2.5 of the Endless Paths. Your tank has been knocked out twice so he has a gimp in one leg and cant see so good out of one of his eye. The mage is limping along at full Stamina but only 4 Health. Uh-oh, that mummy claw attack just gave you mummy rot! You will lose 1 Stamina and .5 Health per round until "rested". As you slowly shuffle back to the rest spot you go unconscious three more times from the mummy rot damage. I dunno, sounds painful to me.

 

As an aside, since they are determined to shoehorn in a "no healing" mechanic, I hope one rest will cure all stacked damage, disabilities and (possibly) diseases. Like if I have 5 disabilities I dont want to have to rest 5 times to unstack them all.

[general_azure]

I'd actually prefer to limit diseases to quest and story elements instead of the random combat debuffs you usually get. Instantly developing some affliction that sounds rather deadly (yet never kills) and is gone just as fast when the next best priest looks your way is rather silly imho. And I don't think cutting out the priest and instead healing on rest makes it much better really, what pansy disease just vanishes when I lie down for 8h in some tent in the wilderness? Hangover is the only thing that comes to mind.

Might be better to leave the debuffing role to curses/spells or maybe poisons (if you need some use for that herbal stuff).

 

On the other hand, a disease that is not just a debuff but tied into some quest can be neat to have in the game. Think of morrowind style vampirism: It's pretty rare, requires some time to fully develop, alters your gameplay experience dramatically (can even kill you, actually) and takes quite some effort to get rid of.

 

Guess you can count me as option 4 only, with an added emphasis on diseases being rare and powerful quest devices.

[TRX850]

One question that comes to mind is: What if there was no sign (no icon state or combat log) that you'd contracted a disease until a certain amount of time had elapsed?  Long enough for you to have saved the game a few times so that you couldn't easily reload after contracting it.  Then, without warning, during some other adventuring task, the first signs appeared.

 

As diabolical as it sounds, I'm starting to think I'd prefer it that way, so I was forced to confront it.  Like a new enemy, unseen and living inside me.  It'd mean putting the current quest on hold while you sought out a cure, which all adds to the great storytelling device of compounding the conflict.

[JFSOCC]

One question that comes to mind is: What if there was no sign (no icon state or combat log) that you'd contracted a disease until a certain amount of time had elapsed?  Long enough for you to have saved the game a few times so that you couldn't easily reload after contracting it.  Then, without warning, during some other adventuring task, the first signs appeared.

 

As diabolical as it sounds, I'm starting to think I'd prefer it that way, so I was forced to confront it.  Like a new enemy, unseen and living inside me.  It'd mean putting the current quest on hold while you sought out a cure, which all adds to the great storytelling device of compounding the conflict.

And when it rears its ugly head just when you need it most, unexpectedly, I can see some ragequits

[Wirdjos]

 

 

There was some discussion about a mechanic where each character would have an area around him that he can 'cover', preventing enemies from passing through and guarding allies in that threat range. That same radius could be used as a 'contagious zone', anything passing through would have a chance of catching the disease. Do I protect our flank and risk infecting my allies? There could be a map where you are travelling through an infected city, with lots of diseased NPCs. You would do well to avoid them, and in battle use ranged weapons.

 

 

I think combining the above quote with General_Azure's suggestion of keeping disease a quest related thing presents an interesting solution to Gfted1's (very legitimate) complaint.

 

P:E is suppose to take place in an atmosphere like the point in history when the Old World was discovering the New World, right? What I'm thinking is that there is this secluded, uncontacted area in which there is a disease that noone in the outside world is prepared for. (like those two historical peoples dealt with) You have a quest there and with every melee attack from the people of this place, you have a chance of infection. The infection spirals out of control if you don't address the problem (ie rest, some difficult potion, whatever solution thought up) and turns from some nothing debuff into something debilitating. This way the disease is confined to one area of the game and adds to the dramatic effect of that area/quest.

 

I like TRX850's idea of having the disease hidden until the debuffs start occuring, but I think that might only suit it if disease is not confined to one locale is just an element of the world.

[TRX850]

And when it rears its ugly head just when you need it most, unexpectedly, I can see some ragequits

 

I think the important thing is that the effects start out minor, but get worse if you ignore them.  It's saying to the player, "Confront me!"  Just like other tough enemies that can't be reasoned with or intimidated.  In many ways, disease (bacteria) is the perfect organism.  Apart from the face-hugger in Alien, maybe.

Edited February 8, 2013 by TRX850

[maggotheart]

One question that comes to mind is: What if there was no sign (no icon state or combat log) that you'd contracted a disease until a certain amount of time had elapsed?  Long enough for you to have saved the game a few times so that you couldn't easily reload after contracting it.  Then, without warning, during some other adventuring task, the first signs appeared.

 

As diabolical as it sounds, I'm starting to think I'd prefer it that way, so I was forced to confront it.  Like a new enemy, unseen and living inside me.  It'd mean putting the current quest on hold while you sought out a cure, which all adds to the great storytelling device of compounding the conflict.

 

I'm not sure I'm a fan of these types of solutions. The problem is that some people find disease mechanics onerous and they reload because it's not fun for them. I think we need to look for solutions that make people not want to reload, rather than prevent them from doing it entirely. Having quest related diseases is one way, having diseased until rest i think also works, it abstracts away the recovery period and isn't too onerous as long as the disease effects are handled properly.