Torment Sequel Q&A with Brian Fargo

[adamsorkin]

RPS has an interesting Q&A here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/09/planescape-torment-sequel/#more-137374 - discussing the new Torment "sequel" sans Planescape. Not a bad read - thought it might be of interest here.

[Valsuelm]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

 

I do hope they are able to snag Avellone as well as anyone else that contributed significantly to PST after he is done with PE. Or if somehow they were able to partner with Obsidian that would be even better. Fargo and the PE team are the only ones I have any faith in (in America anyways) to make a good CRPG. And that said, I do have a lot of faith.

 

And that interview reminds me what a horrible company WoTC is. They, much like EA, destroy or poison most everything they touch. I wish Gygax and co. had been as good a business man as he was a game designer so TSR was still around.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Valsuelm

[Helm]

This is excellent news. We are getting so many great games now that we don't have to buy this so called AAA crap anymore. :D

 

I do hope they are able to snag Avellone

Unlikely, at least not substantially imo. Avellone will be putting a lot of work into PE.

[Malekith]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

 

I do hope they are able to snag Avellone as well as anyone else that contributed significantly to PST after he is done with PE. Or if somehow they were able to partner with Obsidian that would be even better. Fargo and the PE team are the only ones I have any faith in (in America anyways) to make a good CRPG. And that said, I do have a lot of faith.

 

And that interview reminds me what a horrible company WoTC is. They, much like EA, destroy or poison most everything they touch. I wish Gygax and co. had been as good a business man as he was a game designer so TSR was still around.

I hope not.He should consatrate on P:E.I prefer for him to give his 100% in one game than have him do a half assed job in many

[maggotheart]

What is a 'Torment Game'? Fargos answer was pretty mushy. How is it a sequel?

 

It sounds fun as described and I'm definitely interested but it seems like they're just springboarding off the built-in fanbase for PST in order to sell a completely different and original game.

[Valsuelm]

I hope not.He should consatrate on P:E.I prefer for him to give his 100% in one game than have him do a half assed job in many

 

Note that I said:

 

....after he is done with PE.

 

[rjshae]

What is a 'Torment Game'? Fargos answer was pretty mushy. How is it a sequel?

 

It sounds fun as described and I'm definitely interested but it seems like they're just springboarding off the built-in fanbase for PST in order to sell a completely different and original game.

Yes, that's pretty much it.

 

Planescrape Torment.

Edited January 9, 2013 by rjshae

[Dream]

Given no Planescape and presumably none of the PST characters, what makes a Torment game a Torment game to your mind?

 

Nothing, it makes it ****ing name recognition and that's it.

[Ganrich]

Heck ya!! Thanks for posting this!!! I am excited that this trend has given rebirth to this style of rpg. BGEE, PE, wasteland 2, Shadowrun Returns, BG2EE, and now a game in the vein of PS: T? This is my favorite year in video games in a long time... Long, long, long time.

 

Also, I am excited about Project Fedora. I miss old FMV games.

[Malekith]

I hope not.He should consatrate on P:E.I prefer for him to give his 100% in one game than have him do a half assed job in many

 

Note that I said:

 

....after he is done with PE.

 

I notised.But this game will be kickstarted sometime in 2013, and P:E will come out 2014. I think thats why he said he won't work on this one

[Valsuelm]

What is a 'Torment Game'? Fargos answer was pretty mushy. How is it a sequel?

 

It sounds fun as described and I'm definitely interested but it seems like they're just springboarding off the built-in fanbase for PST in order to sell a completely different and original game.

 

Planescape Torment was i the minds of many who played it (including myself) overall the best CRPG ever made. No other game ever absorbed me so much into it, and this is coming from someone who had zero interest in the Planescape universe going in. I wasn't at all interested in the game, and in my opinion it was marketed badly, but on the recommendation of a friend I played it and oh boy was I more than pleasantly surprised.... I rate the story up there with some of the best novels I've ever read.

 

In my opinion a sequel really probably can't nor shouldn't be done as the original story doesn't really lend to a sequel. Though who knows, if the right story evolved (I can't imagine a good one but maybe someone can)... anyways, that will never happen as as mentioned in the interview Wizards of the Coast owns the license to Planescape and they're not interested in letting anyone use it.

 

It seems to me what Fargo et al are trying to do is make a game in the spirit of Torment, and that's what they should make in my opinion. If unable to use the PS universe then completely original is all good. I'm not sure it should even have Torment in the title, unless it truly is more than a marketing ploy. If however a team is assembled to make a game in the 'spirit of PS:T', that game will very likely be the second kickstarter I back. However I really would like to see them wait until Avellone is available. I'm in no hurry, I've already waited 12+ years, and I'm sure others would rather wait a little longer if it was possible to assemble a team with Chris on it as well. I know I wouldn't think twice about backing it if he was, and if he is not I still very well may but I personally would need to see a little more than what I've seen before I committed the $$$.

[Ganrich]

I agree, Valsuelm. I can vividly remember my first reaction to the very beginning of PST. I remember finishing that first dialogue, and just being utterly confused. It was a mystery, with a very unique art style, that was enthralling from start to finish. It was the single most cerebral RPG I have ever had the fortune of playing on a computer. The story, and concept, were so good that it overshadowed its mediocre combat. Stripping the D&D systems from it will do it some good IMHO.

 

I also agree that even though I am insanely excited... I will wait to see a bit more, and hear a bit more on it before I back it. I do hope Chris gets involved in it to some extent. Not so much as to ignore PE, but maybe write a few companions and the like. I think this iteration will need more characters like Monte and Fall from Grace if it is to be accepted.

[Umberlin]

I can't say I'm excited or even hopeful in the least. It sounds like a cash grab off the title, until I see something that proves otherwise. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be as shameful as re-opening Black Isle studious with . . . no black isle people involved. Anyways, what little is there doesn't really sound like something that I'd associate with Planescape: Torment in the least. It's not even a Planscape setting, so, really, the 'name drop' of "Torment" and comparisons, insistence that it's another 'torment' game . . . comes off as even more of a soulless cash grab.

[Dream]

I can't say I'm excited or even hopeful in the least. It sounds like a cash grab off the title, until I see something that proves otherwise. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be as shameful as re-opening Black Isle studious with . . . no black isle people involved. Anyways, what little is there doesn't really sound like something that I'd associate with Planescape: Torment in the least. It's not even a Planscape setting, so, really, the 'name drop' of "Torment" and comparisons, insistence that it's another 'torment' game . . . comes off as even more of a soulless cash grab.

 

Pretty much. I desperately wanted it to be anything but that, but the more I read of that interview the more I kept thinking "How the **** is this a sequel?" Spiritual successor? Sure, maybe, but calling it a sequel? That just screams of name recognition and taints any legitimate goals they may be aspiring to.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Dream

[Ieo]

*sigh*

 

I must admit that this article does not actually fill me with joy, even despite my long-standing love affair with PS:T.

 

I can't say I'm excited or even hopeful in the least. It sounds like a cash grab off the title, until I see something that proves otherwise. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be as shameful as re-opening Black Isle studious with . . . no black isle people involved. Anyways, what little is there doesn't really sound like something that I'd associate with Planescape: Torment in the least. It's not even a Planscape setting, so, really, the 'name drop' of "Torment" and comparisons, insistence that it's another 'torment' game . . . comes off as even more of a soulless cash grab.

 

 

I immediately thought of Dragon Age: Origins, which wasn't even marketed as a sequel but as a "successor," one step removed. Yet it was not the successor to Baldur's Gate by a long shot, while all the marketing, interviews, and what-have-you always mentioned the tandem relation. Thus, all I see are red flags, which increases my suspicious tremendously. You know what they say: Fool me once...

 

These are extremely loaded terms and phrases to throw around willy-nilly, and with each placement I'm more convinced it's a mere marketing ploy and not an original development of merit:

• sequel
  
• make a new Torment game
  
• Torment sequel
  
• natural fit for a Torment game
  

What's interesting is that the wording in the interview appears to conceptually split the subtitle off the original setting Planescape: Torment. Sounds like Fargo wants to stress that the whole sphere around the game should be Torment: Planescape and the game they're working on now is a natural franchise "sequel." Well, that doesn't actually do PS:T justice because of the misuse of a literary/media definition, which I find patronising.

 

se·quel [see-kwuh l]

noun

1. a literary work, movie, etc., that is complete in itself but continues the narrative of a preceding work.

 

se·quel

1: consequence, result

2a : subsequent development

b : the next installment (as of a speech or story); especially : a literary, cinematic, or televised work continuing the course of a story begun in a preceding one

 

Yet we know the setting won't be the same (that part I don't fault them), the story certainly won't be the same, none of the characters would be there. Absolutely no link besides the word Torment! Even DA:O's marketing wasn't that bad.

 

This is not a damn sequel.

 

Here's the thing, Obsidian:

 

Wording matters. What words you choose and where you place them highlights your intent (whether accurate or not) and colors all the subsequent content in the article and beyond. By throwing around the heavily loaded and completely misused terminology, that tells me you are banking so heavily on PS:T nostalgia for salability that you place more emphasis on the nomenclature than the proposed game product and are hoping for blind fans. You know what? If DA:O was marketed without mentioning BG to which it had exceptionally little in common, I wouldn't have minded; probably even enjoyed it for what it was. If all your statements surrounding this new game were strictly about "capture the feeling" and "epic narrative" and whatever, I wouldn't mind; this is why I supported Project Eternity.

 

I'm not a mindless fan-drone zealot and find the approach in this particular article to be, well.... rather offensive.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

As noted, they really, really shouldn't be calling this a 'Torment sequel.' They can't use the Planescape setting, and Torment's story wrapped up pretty neatly even if they could. It makes them come across as dishonest.

 

What they SHOULD be saying is 'we want to make another game like Torment, with a cool setting and a primary focus on producing the best storyline and characters we can within that setting.' That's what I'd prefer to hear.

[Tigranes]

Have they actually ever called it a Torment sequel, or just a Torment game? I can't remember, but at least, the interviewees never use the word. We all know that it's a thematic tie-in or spiritual successor rather than a direct sequel. And I'm fine with that. I am sad that they can't use the setting but I do understand the practicalities.

[Dream]

Have they actually ever called it a Torment sequel, or just a Torment game? I can't remember, but at least, the interviewees never use the word. We all know that it's a thematic tie-in or spiritual successor rather than a direct sequel. And I'm fine with that. I am sad that they can't use the setting but I do understand the practicalities.

 

Fargo: We know it hasn’t been done often in the game industry, but we’re envisioning Torment as a thematic franchise with certain themes that can expand over different settings and stories. We will focus on the same things that made people appreciate PST so much: overturning RPG tropes; a fantastic, unconventional setting; memorable companions; deep thematic exploration of the human condition; heavy reactivity (i.e., choice and consequences); an intensely personal (rather than epic) story.

 

That entire paragraph is him trying to change what the term franchise means so he can call his new game (that has nothing to do with Torment) a Torment game.

[Aeschylus]

sooo who do i have sex with to make this a reality?

 

Torment was the RPG for me. The depth, The characters, the inventive storyline...

[Bill Gates' Son]

Have they actually ever called it a Torment sequel, or just a Torment game? I can't remember, but at least, the interviewees never use the word. We all know that it's a thematic tie-in or spiritual successor rather than a direct sequel. And I'm fine with that. I am sad that they can't use the setting but I do understand the practicalities.

 

Fargo: We know it hasn’t been done often in the game industry, but we’re envisioning Torment as a thematic franchise with certain themes that can expand over different settings and stories. We will focus on the same things that made people appreciate PST so much: overturning RPG tropes; a fantastic, unconventional setting; memorable companions; deep thematic exploration of the human condition; heavy reactivity (i.e., choice and consequences); an intensely personal (rather than epic) story.

 

That entire paragraph is him trying to change what the term franchise means so he can call his new game (that has nothing to do with Torment) a Torment game.

 

And what exactly is wrong with that? I don't understand why you people in this topic are getting so bent out of shape about this. if it going to share some of the same ideas, some of the same theme, and maybe have some references from Torment, then I don't see any problem with the new game using the name. Planescape is word that is a trademark, not Torment.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Bill Gates' Son

[Bill Gates' Son]

* Double post. Ignore this one.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Bill Gates' Son

[Oerwinde]

I don't get what the issue is. No one complains about Final Fantasy sequels. Every game has an entirely new setting with new game mechanics, characters, etc. but they had to make one an MMO before people complained that they weren't real sequels.

 

If Numenera: Torment comes out and has:

• deep, intense, personal story
  
• memorable characters
  
• characters growth is based more on my dialogue choices and the interactions I have with others rather than how many beasts I can slay
  
• unconventional setting and cultures
  
• Anything like the stuff with the unbroken circle with Dak'kon (scads of dialogue discussing things important to a character where my character's arguments and points can make a difference in their beliefs and outlook)
  

I will be satisfied that it is a Torment sequel.

[Umberlin]

I don't get what the issue is. No one complains about Final Fantasy sequels.

 

You've never seen someone complain about FF sequels?

 

Every game has an entirely new setting with new game mechanics, characters, etc. but they had to make one an MMO before people complained that they weren't real sequels

 

Apples and oranges, very different thing here. If you can't see why on your own I don't know how to explain it to you. This is every bit as bad, in my eyes, as opening up Black Isle studious again . . . with none of the Black Isle people involved. This isn't a sequel or a 'Torment' like game or anything of the sort, it's just name dropping to get attention for a completely unrelated project.

 

You might want to say, "Well that's Final Fantasy" but you'd miss the point that, "Well that's Final Fantasy," Their games were never meant to be direct sequels (until they started doing that with X-2 and XIII-2). One of the first things pushed by this "Torment" game is that it "is" a sequel . . . part of the "torment franchise" despite not being a sequel, or even having access to any of the same resources. If I were looking for a Planescape: Torment game i'd sort of expect it to be set in Planescape, and have some actual links to the game. This game has no such links, they legally can't have such links.

 

So really what they're saying is, "We're going to try and make this game like Planescape: Torment" only "it won't be Planescape: Torment" at which point the only reasonable response, in my mind, is: "Then you should sever all ties, not tout it as a sequel or any of that other nonsense, and just make a game, with its own 'not a cash grab title' and say that it was simply inspired by Planescape: Torment." It's all in the wording. They could have presented it as something inspired, in the same vein, which is what you're hoping it is. That would be fine - but they didn't do that. They went the cash grab, name dropping, 'look at me look at me' route . . . and it's despicable.

[Oerwinde]

I don't get what the issue is. No one complains about Final Fantasy sequels.

 

You've never seen someone complain about FF sequels?

 

Every game has an entirely new setting with new game mechanics, characters, etc. but they had to make one an MMO before people complained that they weren't real sequels

 

Apples and oranges, very different thing here. If you can't see why on your own I don't know how to explain it to you. This is every bit as bad, in my eyes, as opening up Black Isle studious again . . . with none of the Black Isle people involved. This isn't a sequel or a 'Torment' like game or anything of the sort, it's just name dropping to get attention for a completely unrelated project.

 

You might want to say, "Well that's Final Fantasy" but you'd miss the point that, "Well that's Final Fantasy," Their games were never meant to be direct sequels (until they started doing that with X-2 and XIII-2). One of the first things pushed by this "Torment" game is that it "is" a sequel . . . part of the "torment franchise" despite not being a sequel, or even having access to any of the same resources. If I were looking for a Planescape: Torment game i'd sort of expect it to be set in Planescape, and have some actual links to the game. This game has no such links, they legally can't have such links.

 

So really what they're saying is, "We're going to try and make this game like Planescape: Torment" only "it won't be Planescape: Torment" at which point the only reasonable response, in my mind, is: "Then you should sever all ties, not tout it as a sequel or any of that other nonsense, and just make a game, with its own 'not a cash grab title' and say that it was simply inspired by Planescape: Torment." It's all in the wording. They could have presented it as something inspired, in the same vein, which is what you're hoping it is. That would be fine - but they didn't do that. They went the cash grab, name dropping, 'look at me look at me' route . . . and it's despicable.

 

I'm sorry, I must have missed where the game has already been made, released, played, and its worthiness as a successor to PST can be firmly dismissed.

 

My point with mentioning Final Fantasy is that they are still considered sequels because certain thematic or symbolic links exist between the games. Summons, Chocobos, a character named Cid/Sid, etc. And you can't say Torment isn't like that because it hasn't had a sequel yet. If this game comes out and is a piece of garbage then so be it, but literally the only info we have on it is the setting, which was created by some of the talent behind Planescape, some of the talent involved, who worked on PST or were part of projects compared to PST, and that MCA supports the project.

[bonarbill]

Typical as always, people complaining just to be complaining on these forums.

 

And you know what's funny about the whole thing? Many companies did this before, no one else complained about it. Monolith Soft made Xenogear and Xenosaga. Irrational Games made Systemshock and Bioshock. From software made Dark Souls and Demon Souls. Hudson made Star Force and Star Soldier. Oh, and who doesn't know about Far Cry and Crysis? All of these are the result of being part either being part of another company or because they didn't have the rights to the old series. Some fans considered the newer games spiritual successors, while other considered them sequels.

 

I'm glad it's using the name Torment, and I hope they won't changed the title to please a bunch of people whining on the forums who think it's "despicable".

Edited January 10, 2013 by bonarbill