Commandos, a stealth perspective.

[JFSOCC]

First off, let me apologize for not having pictures to explain what I mean. I tried doing screenshots but somehow they came out all garbly, and online I cannot find examples of what I wished to demonstrate.

So, Commandos is an isometric game of a different sort, for those who haven't played or heard of it, you play an elite group of special forces during the second world war, each with their own specializations. Never is your team greater than six members, so in many ways, it has some overlap with the IE games. Despite not being a RPG.

 

I bring this up because I believe stealth is done pretty well in Commandos, and with a few minor tweaks could actually be pretty well implemented in P:E.

If you cheat in commandos, as I was prone to when I was younger, you had the option to "trace" the enemy's observation.

This involved a few things

First you had line of sight, a cone moving outwards from every npc, divided into two parts, a part nearby where anything could be seen and a part far off where you could be observed if you were standing up.

Enemies could also see tracks left in snow, though these disappeared after a while.

Then, there was something you could only see if you cheated, which was your sound signature. Different weapons had different signatures, but all of them were basically a radius around the player, whenever they were fired. If you moved at speed, your movement had a sound radius as well.

enemies within the radius of the sounds would become alerted to it. they would shout out in alarm, which had it's own (rather large) sound radius, but if they were isolated this would not be too troublesome

 

So commandos worked by sneaking towards enemies, dealing with them one by one, moving corpses out of the path of patrolling enemies. Or if the fancy struck you, by ignoring them and using your observation skills to bypass them without leaving a trace.

 

I don't see why this system couldn't be implemented in P:E.

Your Stealth skill could affect the range of your enemies observation skills (visually) or perhaps their sight cone could be divided up into pieces, the more stealthily you are, the more parts of the cone you could enter without being spotted.

Vice versa, observation skills could increase the sight cone of enemy NPC's, those with tracking skills would be better at observing footprints left behind by your team (and you might see enemy footprints based on their distance to you, and the time since an npc walked past.)

 

I think this would make stealth immensely more dynamic, and would make it a skill where the levels you had in it would change the challenge, but never eliminate it. You couldn't just walk in front of some dude, so you would have to keep paying attention to their movements and positions. and their patrol routes.

 

Skill in move silently would decrease the sound radius/signature you have. A "silent running feat" would make your running sound signature whatever your walking sound signature is.

Armour would affect this too. so you could be a stealth character with heavy(loud) armor, but this means you'd have to avoid enemies at greater distance (rather than just have a stealth check fail) and walk slower.

 

Different enemies might have different ways to spot you, some being excellent listeners (their hearing range has to overlap your sound signature in order for them to notice your sounds) Dogs could use scent, seeing where you've been (but this would evaporate over time, quicker outside than inside, and not through some obstacles.) Spotters could have narrow but long vision cones, Guards could have short but wide ones.

 

I think this would create gradients of stealthplay, where it isn't a simple pass or fail check whether or not stealth succeeds. You'll still have to play and pay attention. Your bulky barbarian can still sneak, it's just much harder for him because he'll get spotted much easier.

 

And most importantly, getting spotted doesn't have to alert the entire base to your presence, which means that if you enjoy stealth, you're not forced to instantly reload. (I imagine some alarms could trigger everyone to go on high alert)

 

Oh, and no "must have been nothing" nonsense. An enemy alert isn't going to back down quickly.

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Finally, I think this is fairly easy to implement.

Sight cones can be stuck to characters' orientation. The shape of them to their class(or role), the size of them to their observation skills (linked to a numerical value, so that things like equipment and skill can affect it) And what they can spot (tracks, movement within distance x , stationary within distance y)

while stealth abilities will allow you to move the range of either enemy observation skills, or decrease the range of your signals.

 

Also for weapons some make noise, some might have a noise radius where they impact while others have a noise radius where they come from.

 

Sorry for the rather poorly worded idea. maybe I'll format it better later (don't count on it)

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TL;DR: an idea to make stealth more dynamic by making skills for stealth and observation work in gradients

[mstark]

Being a big fan of the early Commandos games I understand your post very well, and I also believe that the basic elements that makes stealth challenging and fun in that game can be implemented in PE.

 

As you said, it's a fairly straight forward system using A: line-of-sight cone and B: sound radius. Together with mechanics such as alerting people within X radius when detecting something, it becomes an advanced system that's rather easy to implement. There is no advanced AI in Commandos, yet the system worked incredibly well for creating an exciting experience, it was a simple system that created very dynamic gameplay.

 

To throw around some ideas:

 

The part of the cone you could avoid by crawling in Commandos could be the part you can stand undetected in while in Stealth Mode in PE. Stealth Mode could also reduce your movement sound radius to 0, so that you can approach enemies from behind without alerting them. Maybe when you approach an enemy from behind, before you attempt to backstab them, you must roll an extra sound check to make sure the target doesn't hear you and turns around.

 

It creates a more dynamic environment within which enemies can be placed. If enemies are placed within line of sight of each other, that particular area would be very hard to approach with stealth. Maybe you can enter the area while in stealth, but the enemy would detect a companion that suddenly falls over due to a dagger in their back. This would place everyone in the area on alert, but they wouldn't know where to look for your party if your rogue sneaks away undetected. No rolls required, just literally staying out of sight once enemies start running around.

 

Commandos had a lot of awesome moments like these. You could snipe an enemy from far away, but that could change the patrolling patterns of all the enemies on the entire map, making it a lot harder to complete your main objective.

 

Anyway, I'm all in favor for a system that removes the dice roll from stealth, and requires you to actually manually control your character to stay out of sight.

[JFSOCC]

Right, and as a developer it might be easier to create challenges as you can use defaults for certain classes in their observation/patrolling skills and behaviour. All you need to do then is placement, and even if you haven't designed an encounter with stealth in mind, it could by virtue of the game mechanics work out that way.

[Juneau]

You could also have it so Mages can detect magic (like the spells Detect magic) which works against your stealth if your using illusion or have a mage with you/enchanted weapons etc..

 

How ever, your guy in heavy plate - Isn't going to be that quiet even if he's got cloth wrapped plating. It still makes a noise. So your stealth is only going to be as good as your weakest link.

 

I like stealth, so good idea, that might work/might not work in this games sense.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Juneau

[JFSOCC]

You could also have it so Mages can detect magic (like the spells Detect magic) which works against your stealth if your using illusion or have a mage with you/enchanted weapons etc..

 

How ever, your guy in heavy plate - Isn't going to be that quiet even if he's got cloth wrapped plating. It still makes a noise. So your stealth is only going to be as good as your weakest link.

 

I like stealth, so good idea, that might work/might not work in this games sense.

Having different ways to detect seems a cool feature making stealth more complex

About the guy in plate, he would have a much greater noise radius, which means he might not bypass a guard an inch from his neck, but certainly it might be done some 10 meters distant.

[TMTVL]

Plate armour isn't as loud and clanky as you guys think, y'know. Otherwise it'd be really effective at driving the wearers insane. And I have a mail hauberk, which I occasionally wear under a shirt, nobody can tell.

[Hormalakh]

good ideas. always a fan of inspirations being drawn from other games that have shown to be fun. if properly implemented, it can even solve a lot of other issues as well, like pulling enemies, etc.

 

i just wonder if it is difficult to implement. is the code particularly tough to add to an RPG framework? i'm not sure how feasible the technicals are.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Tale]

These are real time games? I may have to look at some videos.

[JFSOCC]

this one at least has a bit of everything, visual observation, sound as a distraction, observation of left behind tracks.

[Hormalakh]

I loved those games. Thief was also a nicely done 3d stealth game that utilized sound extremely effectively. The floors that you walked on had different sounds and would either cause the guards to hear you very quickly (marble or metal floors) or to not hear you at all (carpeted floors). You could also shoot out torches with water arrows and hide in the shadows. These stealth games are awesome. If Project Eternity can utilize any of the game mechanics when it comes to stealth, that would be quite fun.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Hormalakh

[mstark]

Nice video... oh the memories :D.

 

Notice all the "degenerate" reloading and quick saving? I loved when games let you do that, and I hope PE won't differ from IE in that regard. It allowed you to experiment with difficult situations, you could play it safe, or test out solution after solution. A required feature in a game that can be VERY penalizing once you make a mistake. It's annoying to watch, but it's a great feature.

Edited January 8, 2013 by mstark

[Hormalakh]

lol @mstark re: degeneracy. There is a difference, I believe, in the reasons you give for so-called "degenerate load/save" and reasons that the developers give for degenerate reload/save.

 

One has to do with trying out different strategies to solve a particular problem or challenge when all the information is laid before you. This would be the example of Commandos.

 

The other (and the one that I agree should be reduced) is when the challenge itself is the lack of knowledge (you don't know what kinds of enemies you'll see so you can't be sure what spells to prepare) and the only way to really bypass that challenge is to "meta-game" and "degenerately load and save".

 

Even if you played Commandos today, the challenge is still there. You still have to execute the strategy correctly to win. With other DnD RPGs, the challenge of not knowing what enemies lie ahead of you is no longer there. There is still a challenge there (similar to Commandos, you have to execute your strategy correctly) but it is severely reduced.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Lephys]

Commandos! MAN I loved that game...

 

Its stealth systems provided complexity in a pretty simple fashion. Plus, it's already isometric! 8D! I think inspiration could easily be drawn for some stealth elements in P:E.

 

Also, if your plate-wearing fighter wants to be sneakier, he can just remove his armor, or put on some leather or something. BOOM! He doesn't need 700 points in Sneak. He just needs to not be wearing loud armor, and now he's much, much quieter. And your Rogue will still be able to blend into walls at high levels, and move within 3-feet of a guard, and generally be a stealth BAMF. But, in general, the situational conditions would have much more of an effect on your chances of being detected than just a simple stealth roll. I like it.

[Heresiarch]

Commandos was fun, but not very realistic. Such a system only works if you have a reliable way of dispatching enemies silently and in one hit. Fallout Tactics had a similar stealth system. There were no sound or vision fields, but crawling/crouching reduced noise and visibility and, hence, the chance of being detected while you sneak. But the fact that a single shot alerted all the enemies in the vicinity, who could activate alarms (and bring the whole camp down upon you) made the whole system pretty useless. Same goes for much never Jagged Alliance: Back in Action. The principle is there, but it's too long, frustrating and rarely works.

 

Also I hate degenerate save/loading. One of the reasons I didn't like Thief a lot is it required plenty of the replaying until you became so familiar with the level, you could walk through it in your sleep. Maybe it's fun for some, but I consider it bad game design. The system worked much better than Dishonored, while being similar in principle. It lets you make informed decisions about your next move even on the first playthrough by the virtue of giving you superpowers. Also getting detected does not get you instakilled most of the time. So I don't want save/loading to be a must for stealth in PE.

 

Probably the closest thing to the actual PE (while still having a stealth system similar to the one suggested) is Evil Islands. It also made heavy use of sneak tactics and sensory magic, allowing you to become less noticeable, to extend range of vision and to see enemy's vision cones. Which worked well in general for a single character, but I imagine that it would be a nightmare to use with the whole six-men party.

[Lephys]

Commandos was fun, but not very realistic. Such a system only works if you have a reliable way of dispatching enemies silently and in one hit.

 

Not true. How conflict plays out when you're detected is entirely separate from the circumstances that govern your ability to go undetected. And honestly, I don't see why a masterful thief SHOULDN'T basically be able to either knock people out in one hit OR kill them in one hit. If you sneak up behind a human, and you've got 2 daggers, I think you could probably slit their throat or stab them in both lungs. Without their knowledge you're there, they're completely defenseless. Armor doesn't mean anything if you have all the time in the world to strike wherever you want without any resistance. And, if there was, instead, an ogre in a corridor, you might just want to sneak past him rather than attack him. The goal being to avoid engaging him until you've completed some other task (or all together, perhaps), so how quickly you can dispatch of him is moot.

 

Also, I just want to point out, for what it's worth, that I don't see the act of saving and reloading as inherently degenerate. I mean, if you're fighting a very challenging fight, you might die completely (unable to continue the game in any capacity) and be forced to reload again, but that's just part of gameplay. You're not circumventing anything. You should be presented with the opportunity to gather enough information and control your party in a sufficient manner to complete the fight in a single try, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ever end up having to try a second time. So, yes, you shouldn't be required to save and reload JUST to gather the required information to be ABLE to complete a task. That's just terrible design. But, save/loading is really only degenerate when it's intentionally used to achieve a better result with less than the intended amount of effort. Just a side-note, really.

[Hormalakh]

Commandos was fun, but not very realistic. Such a system only works if you have a reliable way of dispatching enemies silently and in one hit. Fallout Tactics had a similar stealth system. There were no sound or vision fields, but crawling/crouching reduced noise and visibility and, hence, the chance of being detected while you sneak. But the fact that a single shot alerted all the enemies in the vicinity, who could activate alarms (and bring the whole camp down upon you) made the whole system pretty useless. Same goes for much never Jagged Alliance: Back in Action. The principle is there, but it's too long, frustrating and rarely works.

 

Also I hate degenerate save/loading. One of the reasons I didn't like Thief a lot is it required plenty of the replaying until you became so familiar with the level, you could walk through it in your sleep. Maybe it's fun for some, but I consider it bad game design. The system worked much better than Dishonored, while being similar in principle. It lets you make informed decisions about your next move even on the first playthrough by the virtue of giving you superpowers. Also getting detected does not get you instakilled most of the time. So I don't want save/loading to be a must for stealth in PE.

 

Probably the closest thing to the actual PE (while still having a stealth system similar to the one suggested) is Evil Islands. It also made heavy use of sneak tactics and sensory magic, allowing you to become less noticeable, to extend range of vision and to see enemy's vision cones. Which worked well in general for a single character, but I imagine that it would be a nightmare to use with the whole six-men party.

 

I'm playing Thief now (on Expert too) and have finished a few levels without the degeneracy you speak of. It's been several years since I've played the game, but as long as you're OK with some dirty finishes (almost dead, a few alarms going off, wasting arrows, etc) it's doable and extremely fun.

 

I work the maps without prior knowledge to the extent that I can (I've forgotten pretty much the whole game). I did want to mention that sometimes, I'll complete a section of the game, save and try a different strategy just to see how it feels. I don't consider that degenerate.

 

As for Commandos, I don't think that they should directly copy the game mechanics down to the T, but there are unquestionably some very fun game mechanics that can be inspirations. Also, the loud shots bringing the whole camp against you SHOULD be something that PE does. Pulling single enemies into combat should not be a viable option; enemy units should be able to call out to their allies within visual/hearing range for back-up.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Hormalakh

[JFSOCC]

Commandos was fun, but not very realistic. Such a system only works if you have a reliable way of dispatching enemies silently and in one hit. Fallout Tactics had a similar stealth system. There were no sound or vision fields, but crawling/crouching reduced noise and visibility and, hence, the chance of being detected while you sneak. But the fact that a single shot alerted all the enemies in the vicinity, who could activate alarms (and bring the whole camp down upon you) made the whole system pretty useless. Same goes for much never Jagged Alliance: Back in Action. The principle is there, but it's too long, frustrating and rarely works.

 

Also I hate degenerate save/loading. One of the reasons I didn't like Thief a lot is it required plenty of the replaying until you became so familiar with the level, you could walk through it in your sleep. Maybe it's fun for some, but I consider it bad game design. The system worked much better than Dishonored, while being similar in principle. It lets you make informed decisions about your next move even on the first playthrough by the virtue of giving you superpowers. Also getting detected does not get you instakilled most of the time. So I don't want save/loading to be a must for stealth in PE.

 

Probably the closest thing to the actual PE (while still having a stealth system similar to the one suggested) is Evil Islands. It also made heavy use of sneak tactics and sensory magic, allowing you to become less noticeable, to extend range of vision and to see enemy's vision cones. Which worked well in general for a single character, but I imagine that it would be a nightmare to use with the whole six-men party.

Not all stealth has to end in combat, my suggestion is a similar system, not the same system. For one I would divide the enemy view cone into sections, where the size and placement of those sections is based on their observation stat, conversely I would let your stealth stats determine how far you can penetrate these sections without being spotted.

I reckon stealth will play a lot without going into combat in P:E. (and a lot with it) Nor do I suggest the single hit silent kills like in Commandos.

I really hope Obsidian would be willing to play Commandos with the tracer cheat on, simply to see how the Eidos team did the mechanic. And then build from there.

The video I selected I selected because it shows of the stealth and observation systems, not because it showed the save/load abuse.

[JFSOCC]

Commandos was fun, but not very realistic. Such a system only works if you have a reliable way of dispatching enemies silently and in one hit.

 

Not true. How conflict plays out when you're detected is entirely separate from the circumstances that govern your ability to go undetected. And honestly, I don't see why a masterful thief SHOULDN'T basically be able to either knock people out in one hit OR kill them in one hit. If you sneak up behind a human, and you've got 2 daggers, I think you could probably slit their throat or stab them in both lungs. Without their knowledge you're there, they're completely defenseless. Armor doesn't mean anything if you have all the time in the world to strike wherever you want without any resistance. And, if there was, instead, an ogre in a corridor, you might just want to sneak past him rather than attack him. The goal being to avoid engaging him until you've completed some other task (or all together, perhaps), so how quickly you can dispatch of him is moot.

 

Also, I just want to point out, for what it's worth, that I don't see the act of saving and reloading as inherently degenerate. I mean, if you're fighting a very challenging fight, you might die completely (unable to continue the game in any capacity) and be forced to reload again, but that's just part of gameplay. You're not circumventing anything. You should be presented with the opportunity to gather enough information and control your party in a sufficient manner to complete the fight in a single try, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ever end up having to try a second time. So, yes, you shouldn't be required to save and reload JUST to gather the required information to be ABLE to complete a task. That's just terrible design. But, save/loading is really only degenerate when it's intentionally used to achieve a better result with less than the intended amount of effort. Just a side-note, really.

Again, I posted the suggestion for a similar stealth system, not a suggestion to do combat, not the save abuse.

It's singly the mechanic of observation that I wanted to focus on.

[Juneau]

@TMTVL A hauberk only really make noise if you have it over your legs loosely at which point it jungles like bells.

 

Plate however IS noisy and is completely different to a Hauberk it sounds like a rubbish bag full of empty cans of coke.

 

And I've been lucky enough to wear real plate armour and none of this semi plastic / rubber crap

[HansKrSG]

Evil Islands, an RPG where you only control 1 character(though you could have up to two followers), you also had sight cones and sound radius to detection, where I think the stealth skill made you make a smaller sound radius, while the opponents had bigger detection radiuses if they had better sight and hearing. You could see their detection radiuses with spells, (instead of cheating ). Something like that and what you explain with the commandoes game would be interresting, but I would not be sad if they used something similar as the IE games either.

Edited January 9, 2013 by HansKrSG

[J.E. Sawyer]

Also I hate degenerate save/loading. One of the reasons I didn't like Thief a lot is it required plenty of the replaying until you became so familiar with the level, you could walk through it in your sleep. Maybe it's fun for some, but I consider it bad game design. The system worked much better than Dishonored, while being similar in principle. It lets you make informed decisions about your next move even on the first playthrough by the virtue of giving you superpowers. Also getting detected does not get you instakilled most of the time.

The safety buffer of a suspicious/investigation state was a welcome addition to stealth games. Two of my favorite stealth-oriented games, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory and Hitman: Blood Money, use suspicion states to a) push back against a player engaging in risky behavior and b) give the player an additional tool for manipulating AI. The consequences for a minor error were usually not game-ending.

 

Saving/reloading to try different approaches or to attempt something you, the player, botched isn't degenerate at all. I'd say that's why save/reload is present in games. If players save/reload to perform the same action with the same level of proficiency and reasonably expect a different outcome due to RNG, I'd say that's degeneration. I don't think that's why designers put save/load in games and I don't think that's the way in which players want to engage the game. Earlier Hitman games had a much more "loosey-goosey" detection mechanic, so you could walk by a character once and set him off immediately -- but reloading would allow you to perform the same action in the exact same way and avoid detection.

[J.E. Sawyer]

To address JFSOCC's OP, while PE is not primarily a stealth game, we do want stealth to be an enjoyable and fun element of gameplay. Our mechanics will likely be much simpler than those found in the Commandos series (which I also enjoyed, BTW), but we do want to make it more in depth than pressing a button and having virtual dice roll in the background.

 

Stealth will not be solely the province of rogues, though rogues will likely be able to more easily penetrate areas/avoid detection at close range than most other classes. Additionally, rogues may have class abilities that allow them to take advantage of stealth at the opening of combat (should you choose to use stealth for positioning rather than avoidance).

[Helm]

To address JFSOCC's OP, while PE is not primarily a stealth game, we do want stealth to be an enjoyable and fun element of gameplay. Our mechanics will likely be much simpler than those found in the Commandos series (which I also enjoyed, BTW), but we do want to make it more in depth than pressing a button and having virtual dice roll in the background.

 

Stealth will not be solely the province of rogues, though rogues will likely be able to more easily penetrate areas/avoid detection at close range than most other classes. Additionally, rogues may have class abilities that allow them to take advantage of stealth at the opening of combat (should you choose to use stealth for positioning rather than avoidance).

I keep on thinking: Baldur's Gate + Stealth. Hmmm...... how is that gonna work? I need more info before I can bash or praise the mechanic. I have to say though that it would not make much sense (to me) to have a warrior in full plate also have stealth abilities though...

 

If you ask me only Rogues should be stealthy. Lets say you have a quest and you are given the choice to a) break down the gate with your team and raise hell while slaughtering every alerted guard or b) a more subtle approach where your stealthy rogue sneaks by the guards, climbs through a window and takes out numerous guards silently. Something like that would be pretty interesting.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Helm

[mstark]

I, too, would like to express some concern about not making classes overlap too much. I like having fairly extreme differences between classes, it gives each member of your party a clear purpose. In a game where you can have 6 party members, building a good party composition with unique and clearly defined roles is part of the fun. I don't mind needing a thief in order to be able to open locked chests, it makes quite a lot of sense. I also don't mind needing a (theoretical) dedicated healer class, should my party composition benefit from having one (in fact, I would much prefer having all my healing magic concentrated in one character, instead of each character having their own way of healing... convenience . Healers get a bad reputation in MMO's & possibly P&P D&D, but that's because when you play a healer, that's all you do. In PE, you control the entire party). I know you've said that it's possible to build such old-school D&D classes in your upcoming system, but I guess the real question is, will people do that if the optimal way to play won't require it? Maybe making harder difficulties rely more on very highly specialized classes would be an idea to mitigate such an effect, eg. you'd need a highly skilled thief in order to unlock chests when above normal difficulty, a fighter with some proficiency just wouldn't do.

 

I'm sure all these possibilities will be possible in the system you come up with, but I'm afraid that if the classes are too lenient with how you can specialize, it might make any party composition play pretty much the same as any other. I quite like the idea of having basic stealth and lockpicking on a wizard, cipher, chanter, or fighter, but I just wanted to voice this. Best intentions in mind, and sorry for going somewhat off topic.

 

I hope your internal discussions steer you in a direction of adapting a commandos-esque system (simply because it felt quite realistic, even without the advanced AI of later Thief/Hitman games), and if not, I'm excited about what you guys will come up with instead .

Edited January 10, 2013 by mstark

[rjshae]

I keep on thinking: Baldur's Gate + Stealth. Hmmm...... how is that gonna work? I need more info before I can bash or praise the mechanic. I have to say though that it would not make much sense (to me) to have a warrior in full plate also have stealth abilities though...

 

If you ask me only Rogues should be stealthy. Lets say you have a quest and you are given the choice to a) break down the gate with your team and raise hell while slaughtering every alerted guard or b) a more subtle approach where your stealthy rogue sneaks by the guards, climbs through a window and takes out numerous guards silently. Something like that would be pretty interesting.

Anybody with a bit of physical ability can be stealthy, and there's no reason not to allow it. If I want my fighters to strip down to their skivies in order to sneak up to a camp and stage an ambush, then I want to be able to do so. So no, saying only Rogues should be stealthy is too constraining. Even a fighter in plate mail can be sneaky, if they are far enough away from the listener.