Two weapon style (dual wield)

[Dream]

I really don't see how it is a deal breaker. This is a high fantasy setting. Developers can go crazy on the power of souls if they want to. So beings such as Fairys can use their soul power to telekentically dual wield claymores or elves can use their arms with the help of their soul power to wield them just fine. They can make soul power more of a factor then race. Personally I'm sick of everything having to somehow follow the cliche influences and rules of tolkien/dnd when it comes to fantasy rpgs.

 

Just to reinforce this: from the kickstarter.

 

Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical.

[Sacred_Path]

^ I think it would be p. horrible if they went to such lengths to establish a bit of realism i.e. by making blunt weapons most effective against thick armor, and then go and allow you to dual-wield flails effectively.

[Farbautisonn]

I really don't see how it is a deal breaker. This is a high fantasy setting. Developers can go crazy on the power of souls if they want to. So beings such as Fairys can use their soul power to telekentically dual wield claymores or elves can use their arms with the help of their soul power to wield them just fine. They can make soul power more of a factor then race.

It would be a dealbreaker to me because I would giggle profusely and then not be able to take the game seriously. I wouldnt be "ingame" as my character. I would be a 39 year old guy sitting infront of a computer screen thinking that Skyrim had more realism.

 

Soulpower? Sure. Go ape****e with that. But that power is a power like any other power. If it becomes ridiculous then it detracts from suspension of disbelief and you end up with WoWesque toons where you stathunt and hack and slash more than RP. If every toon and his mother has the "soulpower" to dualwield claymores, then its not a "cool" or "nice" feature. Then it just becomes more ridiculous.

 

You could say: Well, once you hit level so and so, that would be ok. The dualwielding of claymoress that is. But I would STILL feel as if I was relegated to playing WoW in singleplayer. Or a JRPG where aesthetics and form are more important than suspension of disbelief and a certain degree of insetting logic. If that becomes the case, Ill congratulate all of those who like that stuff, and wait for the next RPG to my liking. No hurt feelings or anything .

 

Personally I'm sick of everything having to somehow follow the cliche influences and rules of tolkien/dnd when it comes to fantasy rpgs.

Go play JRPGs then. They have a completely different mold. Aesthetically pleasing Small girls with pixie arms and fragile looking bodies dualyielding 1.500 pound Flails and throwing chain lightning at will. Im not knocking it. Im just saying: "Its not my style".

 

So in the end, its subjective but it would seem that what you aim for is more JRPG than WRPG. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that or with your wish that Obsidian should move in that direction.

[Farbautisonn]

Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical.

Highlighted the important bit here. Some people. Extraordinary. And superhuman really means having reached the level of Pit Fiend as far as I am concerned if you are to effectively dualwield zweihander flamberges. Then I too will accept it. If its something that is given to your toon when he is level 30 or 35 and you get stalked in the woods by ninja treeants with vorpal daggers.

[Lephys]

I understand drawing upon soul power to, say, possess the strength required to wield heavier weapons as if they were regular weapons, but not to somehow phase the 4-foot blades of through your allies whilst annihilating your enemies in a frenzy of twirly death. That seems a bit forced. "Uhh... because you have soul powers?" doesn't seem like a good thing to use to justify just anything. You still have to maintain a believable set of limitations.

[Tsuga C]

You still have to maintain a believable set of limitations.

 

Yeah, I just can't see myself taking the game seriously if a human female avatar with a pin-up body is dual-wielding a pair of battle axes whose heads are the size of garbage can lids. That sort of silliness is fine for anime directed at 9 year-olds, but as a person old enough to have played AD&D when it was new, that sort of aesthetic more than leaves me cold, it inspires contempt.

 

*prays*

 

Lord, please let the target demographic for P:E be university-aged or beyond. There's plenty of stuff out there already for the kiddies. Amen.

[Lephys]

Yeah, I just can't see myself taking the game seriously if a human female avatar with a pin-up body is dual-wielding a pair of battle axes whose heads are the size of garbage can lids.

 

That... which is an aesthetic mismatch (that 110lb human female character doesn't seem strong enough to hold two 35-lb two-handed battle-axes). I know you probably weren't intending to stop at the pure visual believability, but, that's less of a problem than "she can easily swing those weapons because of inner soul strength, but she can't do anything else in the world that such strength would warrant, like punch through stone doors, or toss taverns at people."

 

No matter how your fantasy physics and rules differ from real physics and rules, they still have to adhere to the boundaries that they, themselves, establish. Also, from a game mechanics balancing standpoint, you run into "How do I balance a two-handed battle axe against 2 one-handed weapons or a weapon and shield/artifact/whathaveyou when people can just wield two-2-handed battle axes?" So, either everyone can do that, or it's pretty rare. And if it's pretty rare, you might as well go with "Only 9-foot-tall max-strength Barbarians can do that." Even if you don't actually base it (or at least completely base it) on the STR stat, you still need to find a way to limit it, or there's no reason not to always pick dual-wielding two-handers. It becomes an upgrade instead of a choice.

 

I think even if you decide to let super-hosses dual-wield two-handers, it should cost them some other very useful potential increase (not JUST "you don't really get defense now," because that, by itself, just means you're basically going to be a glass... ehh, twirly blade cannon). Maybe you get the choice between double two-handers, OR 3 extra skills with any other weapon set. There shouldn't be a choice of "feats" between "Your shield can deflect arrows twice as often now" and "YOU ARE NOW A FORCE OF NATURE!"

 

As long as it makes sense (in the context of the game's design, and not "is true to real life physics",), I don't mind seeing a 110-lb, lithe human female wield 2 battle-axes, really. I'm not going to say there's no possible way for that to exist in a well-designed manner. Maybe it still wouldn't fit well in P:E, though. I wouldn't really know without being one of the folks designing the whole game.

[Failion]

I really don't see how it is a deal breaker. This is a high fantasy setting. Developers can go crazy on the power of souls if they want to. So beings such as Fairys can use their soul power to telekentically dual wield claymores or elves can use their arms with the help of their soul power to wield them just fine. They can make soul power more of a factor then race.

It would be a dealbreaker to me because I would giggle profusely and then not be able to take the game seriously. I wouldnt be "ingame" as my character. I would be a 39 year old guy sitting infront of a computer screen thinking that Skyrim had more realism.

 

Soulpower? Sure. Go ape****e with that. But that power is a power like any other power. If it becomes ridiculous then it detracts from suspension of disbelief and you end up with WoWesque toons where you stathunt and hack and slash more than RP. If every toon and his mother has the "soulpower" to dualwield claymores, then its not a "cool" or "nice" feature. Then it just becomes more ridiculous.

 

You could say: Well, once you hit level so and so, that would be ok. The dualwielding of claymoress that is. But I would STILL feel as if I was relegated to playing WoW in singleplayer. Or a JRPG where aesthetics and form are more important than suspension of disbelief and a certain degree of insetting logic. If that becomes the case, Ill congratulate all of those who like that stuff, and wait for the next RPG to my liking. No hurt feelings or anything .

 

Personally I'm sick of everything having to somehow follow the cliche influences and rules of tolkien/dnd when it comes to fantasy rpgs.

Go play JRPGs then. They have a completely different mold. Aesthetically pleasing Small girls with pixie arms and fragile looking bodies dualyielding 1.500 pound Flails and throwing chain lightning at will. Im not knocking it. Im just saying: "Its not my style".

 

So in the end, its subjective but it would seem that what you aim for is more JRPG than WRPG. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that or with your wish that Obsidian should move in that direction.

 

There is nothing wrong with strong women. Just because women in say America are weak as hell does not mean women are weak. Women in 3rd world countries that work in the fields have more stamina then 90 percent men in the west. No reason why a women has to be potrayed as weak. thousands of years ago ancient humans were basically superhuman in strength if we compare them today... Anyways this is a fantasy setting and I don't see why women can't be strong. Thats really a bull**** arguement that I should go play jrpgs instead man. DND already detracts from suspension of belief. a bunch of midgit halflings with +5 magical slings can defeat a 10ton genius giant dragon that lived for countless amount of years.

 

Who knows how they are going to approach the whole soul setting. They can really make this a high power setting if they want to... Perhaps certain souls in project eternity learned to retain all their powers and memories from past lives and have nearly godlike powers and now there is a conspiracy amongst some of these powers to end the world or suppress everyone else from reaching this enlightment. Or they figured the gods are not truly gods and plot to replace them with themselves through stealth. Or they already have for thousands of years have ruled and just now select empires in the world have become aware of this. You the player happen to be born with a soul with infinite potential and now what do you do?

Edited December 21, 2012 by Failion

[Farbautisonn]

There is nothing wrong with strong women.

Did I write that? Please quote me back. Pretty please. With sugar on top.

 

Just because women in say America are weak as hell does not mean women are weak.

Combatting a percieved generalisation with yet another one doesnt really fly mate.

 

Women in 3rd world countries that work in the fields have more stamina then 90 percent men in the west

.

Im awfully sure you have a source on that. And when you provide me with that source, Ill counter it with mortality rates. Thanks.

 

No reason why a women has to be potrayed as weak

.

No reason. And thankfullly most women arent portrayed as weak. However there are biological differences that we cannot escape. Men and woman are built and have evolved significantly different from eachother. Men are generally stronger with more muscle mass (due to testostorone) by a factor of 2 to 6, our respiratory systems are generally better evolved etc. Not saying that women cant be as strong or even stronger than men, they clearly can. Just saying that genrally speaking, women are not as strong as men. We are different. Vive la difference!

 

.Thousands of years ago ancient humans were basically superhuman in strength if we compare them today...

.

If you count Cro Magnon or Homo Erectus perhaps. But then they also had bigger brains. Infact it seems as if our brains get smallerwhilst we get more smarter. Biology and logic are strange things. Effect does not allways mean causality.

 

.Anyways this is a fantasy setting and I don't see why women can't be strong.

.

Never said that, and the above was in no way shape or sense indicative of my postulate. My postulate was that a woman with thin arms (and thusly likely hardly any musclemass) would be hard pressed to lift a 1,5 metric ton flail and flip it around like a ball on a elastic. Much less two. Even in a fantasy setting. Yet. You see that in some JRPGs. If you have ever had the displeasure of seeing an olympic female weightlifter or high end bodybuilder, You will notice that their bodies do not look very feminine and that they do indeed have bodyshapes like men.

 

.Thats really a bull**** arguement that I should go play jrpgs instead man.

.

I ment it as an advice. Not as an offense. JRPGs have WoWesque armour and weapons wielded by near anyone, despite size or bodily capability. It apparently has some aesthethic or intrinsic value to those gamers who enjoy that sort of thing. I personally dont think a miss america model would be able to dualwield 2 claymoresfor very long. Especially not in full plate. If you have a different opinion or perhaps even personal experience that dictates otherwise, I would love to hear it. To me it would be "too far a strech" and thusly break my suspension of disbelief. You apparently have no such problem when playing RPGs which is why I mildly suspect you play them for different reasons than mine. Perhaps the more aesthetic ones, yes?

 

 

DND already detracts from suspension of belief. a bunch of midgit halflings with +5 magical slings can defeat a 10ton genius giant dragon that lived for countless amount of years.

A US marine sniper with a Barret 50 cal does the same? He can plug a lightly armoured vehicule and more with the right ammunition. And he can even carry his kit as well as his very heavy rifle and ammo into the field. It not that much of a leap of faith compared to a 14 year old japanese modelwho can lift the equivalent of the LotRs Wichkings Macetimes two and then wield them like yoyos in close quarter combat with allies standing within radius of the things lethality. Strikes me as a bit too far fetched. Perhaps you are better able to subliminate your belief.

 

 

Who knows how they are going to approach the whole soul setting. They can really make this a high power setting if they want to...

Yep. But they have to maintain some sort of balance. IE Foes would have to maintain some sort of challenge, and preferably one that goes beyond WoWs "50 people spamming their nuke and attack templates because the mob has an obscene amount of HP". Again, no detriment to wow players or people who like that sort of thing, just isnt very believeable and its not very... ahem... original.

 

Perhaps certain souls in project eternity learned to retain all their powers and memories from past lives and have nearly godlike powers and now there is a conspiracy amongst some of these powers to end the world or suppress everyone else from reaching this enlightment. Or they figured the gods are not truly gods and plot to replace them with themselves through stealth. Or they already have for thousands of years have ruled and just now select empires in the world have become aware of this. You the player happen to be born with a soul with infinite potential and now what do you do?

 

"Perhaps".

Edited December 21, 2012 by Farbautisonn

[AGX-17]

Perhaps a simple approach would be to give each weapon a Strength requirement, then apply a, say, -5 Strength penalty to the off-hand weapon. That way, if you are physically strong enough, you can whip around a pair of Katana quite readily. However, the Strength penalty will still reduce the effectiveness of the off-hand weapon in terms of pure damage.

 

A katana is not a hefty weapon to begin with.

 

At any rate, real world dual-weapon fighting styles pretty much exclusively paired a light sword/saber with a dagger or equivalent. Although it was not unheard of for norse raiders to brandish two hand axes at a time in battle, this was still small hand axes, not big battleaxes.

 

There is nothing wrong with strong women. Just because women in say America are weak as hell does not mean women are weak. Women in 3rd world countries that work in the fields have more stamina then 90 percent men in the west. No reason why a women has to be potrayed as weak. thousands of years ago ancient humans were basically superhuman in strength if we compare them today...

 

A scrawny pedobait 12 year old girl brandishing a monstrous battleaxe larger than any of her compatriots is stupid JRPG fluff, not a depiction of "strong women." Also I like the way you run into this tangent ad hominem attack on Americans (when railing against a poster who isn't American.) Ancient humans were not superhuman in strength, they were no different from people today who perform the same sort of labor. People going hungry in Africa are not rippling with strength enough to tear a feeble "American" in half, they're no stronger than their environment and economic station allows them to be. A starving child with flies in his eyes and a distended belly is hardly the mightiest strongman in the world.

 

Any powerlifter in the olympics today can certifiably lift more than any ancient man (and face facts: men are biologically bigger and stronger than women, my feminist cousin with a degree in womens' studies will tell you that much,) could ever hope to. An entire life devoted to strength training, coupled with nutritional/protein supplements and testosterone and other hormone injections is so far beyond the scarce and fragile nature of food for humans in the ancient world. Unless you were royalty or nobility you could never hope to see the amount and variety of food even a middle-class family sees on its plates in the modern world. These were people living hardscrabble on hard bread and what little other crops or livestock they had to subsist on, not mighty adonises living in a golden age of plenty.

 

Humans are not animals built for strength, anyway. Humans are animals built for stamina. The first humans on the savannas of west africa 100,000+/- years ago hunted on those open plains by outlasting their prey, not by outrunning them.

Edited December 21, 2012 by AGX-17

[Tamerlane]

Christ, how the hell did you people start this "strong women in gaming" and, "well, I don't want to sound sexist, but biologically speaking..." bull**** anyway?

[Farbautisonn]

Christ, how the hell did you people start this "strong women in gaming" and, "well, I don't want to sound sexist, but biologically speaking..." bull**** anyway?

The ad hitlerums arent here yet.

[Dream]

I ment it as an advice. Not as an offense. JRPGs have WoWesque armour and weapons wielded by near anyone, despite size or bodily capability. It apparently has some aesthethic or intrinsic value to those gamers who enjoy that sort of thing. I personally dont think a miss america model would be able to dualwield 2 claymoresfor very long. Especially not in full plate. If you have a different opinion or perhaps even personal experience that dictates otherwise, I would love to hear it. To me it would be "too far a strech" and thusly break my suspension of disbelief. You apparently have no such problem when playing RPGs which is why I mildly suspect you play them for different reasons than mine. Perhaps the more aesthetic ones, yes?

 

Isn't that whole argument defeated by the fact that the very game you use to describe what JRPGs are like is... not a JRPG?

 

Additionally while you may not like the aesthetic clearly a great many people do (even amongst IE fans; bastards weren't exactly small and female elves were the definition of super strong 100lb supermodels) so why should Failion be the one to find a different genre and not you?

[Farbautisonn]

I ment it as an advice. Not as an offense. JRPGs have WoWesque armour and weapons wielded by near anyone, despite size or bodily capability. It apparently has some aesthethic or intrinsic value to those gamers who enjoy that sort of thing. I personally dont think a miss america model would be able to dualwield 2 claymoresfor very long. Especially not in full plate. If you have a different opinion or perhaps even personal experience that dictates otherwise, I would love to hear it. To me it would be "too far a strech" and thusly break my suspension of disbelief. You apparently have no such problem when playing RPGs which is why I mildly suspect you play them for different reasons than mine. Perhaps the more aesthetic ones, yes?

 

Isn't that whole argument defeated by the fact that the very game you use to describe what JRPGs are like is... not a JRPG?

 

Additionally while you may not like the aesthetic clearly a great many people do (even amongst IE fans; bastards weren't exactly small and female elves were the definition of super strong 100lb supermodels) so why should Failion be the one to find a different genre and not you?

 

You perhaps see WoW as a typical WRPG? Does WoW have more in common with Final Fantasy than with Baldurs Gate? Soo... not deafeated really, no.

 

Im very well aware that many appreciate the aesthethics of WoW and Final Fantasy esque games. They are very commercially viable. However as I believe it, one of the premises of this game is that its a more traditional RPG in a typical WRPG setting with WRPG kit. From a gaming studio which has an empirical background in this genre.

 

Now, if you would care to go to Obsidians homepage, you will find a poll of what game you hope that PE would be the most like.

 

Baldur's Gate 1 or 2

Call of Duty

Icewind Dale 1 or 2

Planescape: Torment

Temple of Elemental Evil

 

Baldurs Gate and PS:T seem to be rather popular and Final Fantasy isnt even represented.

 

None of those games strike me as typical JRPG genre type games. And Im rather confident that if the people who back this game get a final fantasy inspired game and setting, they will be somewhat miffed. Perhap you would disagree?

 

So if Failion seeks a gaming experience that he CAN find in the JRPG genre, but will be highly unlikely to find in this game (as per inspiration, empical history, choises in poll, promotion of the game setting, etc) it strikes me as somewhat odd, and certainly very optimistic to come looking for them here. Colour me a cynic. Ofcourse the man is well within his rights to try to influence the devs on the board, but then so am I and those that oppose such steps. I dont go to Taco Bell asking for a bigmac. I might get a burger, if I insist and pay, but It will not be a bigmac.

 

I hope I have made my position sufficiantly clear.

[Failion]

I ment it as an advice. Not as an offense. JRPGs have WoWesque armour and weapons wielded by near anyone, despite size or bodily capability. It apparently has some aesthethic or intrinsic value to those gamers who enjoy that sort of thing. I personally dont think a miss america model would be able to dualwield 2 claymoresfor very long. Especially not in full plate. If you have a different opinion or perhaps even personal experience that dictates otherwise, I would love to hear it. To me it would be "too far a strech" and thusly break my suspension of disbelief. You apparently have no such problem when playing RPGs which is why I mildly suspect you play them for different reasons than mine. Perhaps the more aesthetic ones, yes?

 

Isn't that whole argument defeated by the fact that the very game you use to describe what JRPGs are like is... not a JRPG?

 

Additionally while you may not like the aesthetic clearly a great many people do (even amongst IE fans; bastards weren't exactly small and female elves were the definition of super strong 100lb supermodels) so why should Failion be the one to find a different genre and not you?

 

ya but no one used a female elf in a fighter role in those infinity engine games

[Farbautisonn]

I ment it as an advice. Not as an offense. JRPGs have WoWesque armour and weapons wielded by near anyone, despite size or bodily capability. It apparently has some aesthethic or intrinsic value to those gamers who enjoy that sort of thing. I personally dont think a miss america model would be able to dualwield 2 claymoresfor very long. Especially not in full plate. If you have a different opinion or perhaps even personal experience that dictates otherwise, I would love to hear it. To me it would be "too far a strech" and thusly break my suspension of disbelief. You apparently have no such problem when playing RPGs which is why I mildly suspect you play them for different reasons than mine. Perhaps the more aesthetic ones, yes?

 

Isn't that whole argument defeated by the fact that the very game you use to describe what JRPGs are like is... not a JRPG?

 

Additionally while you may not like the aesthetic clearly a great many people do (even amongst IE fans; bastards weren't exactly small and female elves were the definition of super strong 100lb supermodels) so why should Failion be the one to find a different genre and not you?

 

ya but no one used a female elf in a fighter role in those infinity engine games

 

How many of those IE games had you dualwielding claymores?

[Pipyui]

I'm okay with practicing a suspension of disbelief for the sake of my entertainment, but for me there are only so many rules that can be broken before it gets to me. Creative license can take you anywhere, but it's always nice to leave a little anchoring behind for your audience to grasp onto . Breaking the "laws" of theoretical physics is ok, breaking the laws of Newtonian physics is pushing my boundries, breaking those laws for the sake of a purely "fluff" mechanic with virtually no exposition is not ok.

 

Magic breaks many rules with all too often no exposition (I still have a slight problem with it under many implementations, which can be depicted aptly below (spoiler)), but proves to be ingrained deeply in narrative and gameplay. Breaking fundamental laws of physics (equal and opposite forces, conservation of mass, to name just two) should be reserved only for such ingrained content, and not solely to tack another greataxe onto my barbarian. Even then, at least have these laws broken to serve a practical purpose, particularly in this instance for gameplay mechanics - as mentioned above with the close-quarter allies, close-quarter caves, and such - I can not see dual claymores being anything better than grievously impractical; also and especially, Lephys aptly put:

 

No matter how your fantasy physics and rules differ from real physics and rules, they still have to adhere to the boundaries that they, themselves, establish. Also, from a game mechanics balancing standpoint, you run into "How do I balance a two-handed battle axe against 2 one-handed weapons or a weapon and shield/artifact/whathaveyou when people can just wield two-2-handed battle axes?"

 

My post is getting away from me. In short, changing the laws of nature for fantasy is fine, but give me a few anchors in reality, and exercise some conservation with creative license.

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2012 by Pipyui

[Jarmo]

How many of those IE games had you dualwielding claymores?

 

None that I know, but you could dualwield 2 waraxes in KotOR2, or 2 claymores in NWN2.

(Not that I did though, it looked really stupid)

[Dream]

You perhaps see WoW as a typical WRPG? Does WoW have more in common with Final Fantasy than with Baldurs Gate? Soo... not deafeated really, no.

 

Im very well aware that many appreciate the aesthethics of WoW and Final Fantasy esque games. They are very commercially viable. However as I believe it, one of the premises of this game is that its a more traditional RPG in a typical WRPG setting with WRPG kit. From a gaming studio which has an empirical background in this genre.

 

Now, if you would care to go to Obsidians homepage, you will find a poll of what game you hope that PE would be the most like.

 

Baldur's Gate 1 or 2

Call of Duty

Icewind Dale 1 or 2

Planescape: Torment

Temple of Elemental Evil

 

Baldurs Gate and PS:T seem to be rather popular and Final Fantasy isnt even represented.

 

None of those games strike me as typical JRPG genre type games. And Im rather confident that if the people who back this game get a final fantasy inspired game and setting, they will be somewhat miffed. Perhap you would disagree?

 

So if Failion seeks a gaming experience that he CAN find in the JRPG genre, but will be highly unlikely to find in this game (as per inspiration, empical history, choises in poll, promotion of the game setting, etc) it strikes me as somewhat odd, and certainly very optimistic to come looking for them here. Colour me a cynic. Ofcourse the man is well within his rights to try to influence the devs on the board, but then so am I and those that oppose such steps. I dont go to Taco Bell asking for a bigmac. I might get a burger, if I insist and pay, but It will not be a bigmac.

 

I hope I have made my position sufficiantly clear.

 

So what does any of that have to do with no super strong 100lb super models being allowed because I'm pretty sure BG, IWD, and PST all had that since there was no difference between a 1 str and a 25 str character. On top of that the weapons in PS:T in particular could compete with most JRPGs when it came to how crazy they looked.

 

Also aesthetically I'd say WoW does have more in common with BG than it does with JRPGs (which is an awful label in and of itself since Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls are technically JRPGs but look distinctly "western").

[FlintlockJazz]

I'm not a fan of differentiating between the styles with damage and defense, as that usually relegates shield users as just tanks. All styles should be capable to be built as equally offensive as the player wants, should instead base it around different utiity.

I ment it as an advice. Not as an offense. JRPGs have WoWesque armour and weapons wielded by near anyone, despite size or bodily capability. It apparently has some aesthethic or intrinsic value to those gamers who enjoy that sort of thing. I personally dont think a miss america model would be able to dualwield 2 claymoresfor very long. Especially not in full plate. If you have a different opinion or perhaps even personal experience that dictates otherwise, I would love to hear it. To me it would be "too far a strech" and thusly break my suspension of disbelief. You apparently have no such problem when playing RPGs which is why I mildly suspect you play them for different reasons than mine. Perhaps the more aesthetic ones, yes?

 

Isn't that whole argument defeated by the fact that the very game you use to describe what JRPGs are like is... not a JRPG?

 

Additionally while you may not like the aesthetic clearly a great many people do (even amongst IE fans; bastards weren't exactly small and female elves were the definition of super strong 100lb supermodels) so why should Failion be the one to find a different genre and not you?

 

Because there are plenty of games that cater to Failion's tastes already while the rest of us find fewer and fewer games as everyone jumps on the anime bandwagon?

[Farbautisonn]

So what does any of that have to do with no super strong 100lb super models being allowed because I'm pretty sure BG, IWD, and PST all had that since there was no difference between a 1 str and a 25 str character.

1) You asked why I presumed that PE would be a WRPG rather than a JRPG, why I believe our common friend should seek out other pastures. I answered.

 

2) A 50 kilogramme lithe human doesnt have the appearance of a gnat and the strenght of a dungbeetle, the ambidextry of an spider and the stamina of ghengis khan combined with the martial skill and speed of an olympic fencer wielding a coalfiber blade. Ill believe one of the above, two perhaps. Not three or more. That you are willing to suspend your disbelief to that extent must make you a really good client in the console shop and fiction stand. I personally like to have something that is at least anchored in some normality. Makes it easier for me to Identify with and thusly RP my toon. Colour me oldfashioned in that sense.

 

On top of that the weapons in PS:T in particular could compete with most JRPGs when it came to how crazy they looked.

...ermn... no. Sure you could have Hibben knives esque designs, but nothing where you had your toon wielding or dualwielding blades that were thrice your own size with the precision and speed of a rapier. There is a (to me at least) big difference between "exotic" and "completely impractical". Again, its a RP thing. If you have an impractical blade that causes you to get nicked or cut everytime you use it and if you cannot wield it with precision and deadly accuraccy, then its not really going to be a great idea. Even if the SAS is primarily made up of scotsmen, they do not do hostage rescues and tactical assults with claymores and bagpipes. Light infantry (which I was) carry tons of crap, but we never carried crap that made zero tactical sense. We didnt tug around heavy mortars or GAU8 miniguns.

 

In PE , Youre an adventurer. A Bodyguard. A light infantryman. Member of a tactical unit (hired to advise on small unit tactics or to partake in small battles). Youre not the 50 kilogramme version of the Deathstar or even Tirpitz or a Landkreutzer. With the magical ability only to hit your adversaries even if your line of fire and area of denial is saturated by your own fire. And if you are, Its not a game for me. I cant pretend I am that superhuman and still find RP elements. Havent since I was five I think.

 

Also aesthetically I'd say WoW does have more in common with BG than it does with JRPGs (which is an awful label in and of itself since Dragon's Dogma and Dark Souls are technically JRPGs but look distinctly "western").

Your subjective opinion vs mine then... lets leave it at that, shall we? But can we at least agree that dualwielding claymores in a dungeon, when close to friends and allies, etc is a somewhat unpractical notion? Even if your moves look great?

Edited December 21, 2012 by Farbautisonn

[Dream]

1) You asked why I presumed that PE would be a WRPG rather than a JRPG, why I believe our common friend should seek out other pastures. I answered.

 

Actually I asked why you felt that your desired aesthetic for P:E was the correct one despite it not even being in line the games that inspired P:E. If I had to rank games by realism PS:T would be near the bottom somewhere around Bayonetta and Devil May Cry (and far below pretty much every JRPG).

 

2) A 50 kilogramme lithe human doesnt have the appearance of a gnat and the strenght of a dungbeetle, the ambidextry of an spider and the stamina of ghengis khan combined with the martial skill and speed of an olympic fencer wielding a coalfiber blade. Ill believe one of the above, two perhaps. Not three or more. That you are willing to suspend your disbelief to that extent must make you a really good client in the console shop and fiction stand. I personally like to have something that is at least anchored in some normality. Makes it easier for me to Identify with and thusly RP my toon. Colour me oldfashioned in that sense.

 

None of those are even close to being possible in real life so why is it acceptable to have one but not all (especially considering all of them can be boiled down to "superhuman muscles and reflexes").

 

...ermn... no. Sure you could have Hibben knives esque designs, but nothing where you had your toon wielding or dualwielding blades that were thrice your own size with the precision and speed of a rapier. There is a (to me at least) big difference between "exotic" and "completely impractical". Again, its a RP thing. If you have an impractical blade that causes you to get nicked or cut everytime you use it and if you cannot wield it with precision and deadly accuraccy, then its not really going to be a great idea. Even if the SAS is primarily made up of scotsmen, they do not do hostage rescues and tactical assults with claymores and bagpipes. Light infantry (which I was) carry tons of crap, but we never carried crap that made zero tactical sense. We didnt tug around heavy mortars or GAU8 miniguns.

 

Yea, he's real practical to have around you in tight spaces.

 

In PE , Youre an adventurer. A Bodyguard. A light infantryman. Member of a tactical unit (hired to advise on small unit tactics or to partake in small battles). Youre not the 50 kilogramme version of the Deathstar or even Tirpitz or a Landkreutzer. With the magical ability only to hit your adversaries even if your line of fire and area of denial is saturated by your own fire. And if you are, Its not a game for me. I cant pretend I am that superhuman and still find RP elements. Havent since I was five I think.

Didn't you just say you were okay with being superhuman as long as you're not too super? Are you now only okay with being totally normal, or still a little super? Maybe half super?

 

Also I guess

With the magical ability only to hit your adversaries even if your line of fire and area of denial is saturated by your own fire. And if you are, Its not a game for me.

Dragon's breath creates a disembodied dragon head that breathes forth an enormously damaging fireball that only affects enemies and may throw them backwards

Baldur's Gate is not the game for you.

 

Your subjective opinion vs mine then... lets leave it at that, shall we? But can we at least agree that dualwielding claymores in a dungeon, when close to friends and allies, etc is a somewhat unpractical notion? Even if your moves look great?

Plate mail is even more impractical when exploring a dungeon, but that's okay because it makes your moves look REALLY great, right?

[Jarmo]

Different space requirements for use of different weapons would be pretty awesome actually.

Narrow corridor or side by side with companions and the sweihander is not so practical, the spinning 2-halberds death attack even less so.

Just make do with thrusts or swap to the backup mace. Works for me. Mount & Blade had some of this, no room to swing big weapons in tight spaces.

 

I'm almost sure though, that you can make the... well maybe not 50 pound, but maybe 80 pound cheerleader babe and go about with the adventuring just fine.

 

As for the superhuman thing. I'm fine with it as long as we don't start uber.

20th level, boots of agility, belt of giant strength, helm of awesome, it's fine and dandy to be able to do some crazy stuff. A beginner farm boy, much less so.

[FlintlockJazz]

Plate mail is even more impractical when exploring a dungeon, but that's okay because it makes your moves look REALLY great, right?

 

Not true actually, a suit of light plate will be lighter and easier to wear than mail or leather while providing a better defense, its why the invention of plate was such a game changer for warfare and everyone wanted a suit of the stuff, including spanish explorers such as the ever famous conquisitadors.

 

A side note: plate mail is factually incorrect term, mail is the name of what people often refer to as chain mail while plate is just called plate. Plate mail doesn't really mean anything.

[Farbautisonn]

Actually I asked why you felt that your desired aesthetic for P:E was the correct one despite it not even being in line the games that inspired P:E. If I had to rank games by realism PS:T would be near the bottom somewhere around Bayonetta and Devil May Cry (and far below pretty much every JRPG).

The very premise for the PS setting is that most everyone of importance in Sigil are devils and demon, demigods or gods. Its on planes that are created by gods or deity level creatures. Pit fiends of 800 plus kilogrammes that wild blades and magic that is next to unheard of in the prime material plane. The very setting dictates that level of power and "realism". You dont pit a gnoll against a pit fiend, give him a deity level weapon and then expect him to beat a pitfiend. Thats not a lucky d20 roll. Thats a lucky d100 roll.

 

My desired aesthetic is (for me) the correct one because its consistant with the lore and ingame logic.

 

None of those are even close to being possible in real life so why is it acceptable to have one but not all (especially considering all of them can be boiled down to "superhuman muscles and reflexes

.

You have people who draw 18 wheelers with their teeth, chinese contortionists, trickshots, etc. You dont have anyone that combines them. Its acceptable to me because you might excell in one area, two perhaps, but not three. Hawkins is a sterling theorhetical scientist, but i dont think he would make the NFL as a Quarterback. If you excell to genious or top end elite status in a field, you generally do so at the cost of others. I rather like that rule. Makes sense to me that you dont become an olympic sprinter by casually jogging around the block every evening.

 

Yea, he's real practical to have around you in tight spaces.

Never used the guy. And I played PS:T alot. Besides, plate is a bit more practical than trying to swing a sword thats in excess of 1½ meters blade lenght in a confined space. And you can take off the plate. IF youre dualwielding claymores AND carrying plate, AND carrying backup weapons, AND carrying your food and other kit. Well... youd need a cart.

 

Didn't you just say you were okay with being superhuman as long as you're not too super? Are you now only okay with being totally normal, or still a little super? Maybe half super?

Give me your definition of "Super" kthnks la~. I dont mind "Super" as long as it doesnt cross the boundary into downright ridiculous and contradictory. And flailing two zweihanders next to your allies in cramped spaces or in the vicinity of VIPs without them getting hurt or killed is. Being able to wield them whilst wearing heavy armour, plate, or backpacks and weighing in at only 50 kilogramme is. The ingame logic dicatates that your solid matter swords hurt your foe, yet passes straight through friends? That seems to clash with the ingame setting logic. Hard. But Im sure you have plenty of examples from games and litterature and perhaps even RL where precisely that happens.

 

 

 

Dragon's breath creates a disembodied dragon head that breathes forth an enormously damaging fireball that only affects enemies and may throw them backwards

Baldur's Gate is not the game for you

.

Never used that spell either. Besides, the multitude of spells and options in BG was true to the Forgotten Realms lore and insetting logic. Having 18 plus strenght means you look rather beefed up. Even as a woman. That the graphics dont represent that is primarily because the game mecanics dont allow it. An umber hulk has 2 strenght and 25 dex... never.

 

Plate mail is even more impractical when exploring a dungeon, but that's okay because it makes your moves look REALLY great, right?

Nope. Not really. But then the conquestadores wore breastplate in jungle. In Chu Chi you had american tunnel rats wearing body armour going into tunnels. Not practical either but rather effective, and most tunnel rats rather fast decided to go down only with a greasegun or a 45 and their shirts. I suspect that after having been in a few dungeons with your twin zweihanders and full plate youd decide to... not.