Criticism of the concept art shown so far

[Gumbercules]

The latest Aumaua concept art in Update #34 provoked a strong reaction in me and finally convinced me to register on the forum and voice my opinion. I've had a problem with most of the concept art shown so far, so I wanted to write up a big post with comprehensive, hopefully constructive feedback instead of freaking out (like NeoGAF is doing lol). And yeah, I'm aware that this is early art that will be revised and improved, but here's some criticism anyway:

 

First, the Aumaua. The first thing that came to mind when looking at the Aumaua wizard was the scene from The Venture Bros. where Henchman 21 is LARPing. In other words, it brings to mind a fat, ugly human trying and failing to look badass. I think this is due to two things: costume and race design.

 

The costume looks slightly goofy and mismatched, but not enough to imply a character who was deliberately designed to indicate he doesn't pay the least bit of attention to looking good. The costume needs to either be sloppier, in a characterful and memorable way, or more flattering.

 

The racial design of the Aumaua is also problematic, mainly because they don't look distinctive and unique enough. I originally thought the wizard was an ugly human because he looks too human; in an Uncanny Valley sort of way it makes me notice all the subtle differences and chalk it up to the character getting beaten with an ugly stick. It may just be me, but I've always found most Star Trek aliens to be gross looking because they're clearly humans with disfiguring makeup plastered on their faces. Whereas, say, Jabba the Hutt from Star Wars is deliberately supposed to come across as disgusting, but he's so removed from humans that it's less unsettling. For all we know he's a gorgeous specimen of a Hutt and there's no need to apply human standards of

beauty to him.

 

Play up the amphibious nature of the Aumaua. As it stands, they look like web-fingered half-orcs at best, weird humans at worst. Maybe make their heads and torsos shorter and fatter and their legs longer and thinner, like frogs. I realize this might cause problems with animation as well as clothing/armor creation, since you would have to do everything seperately for the Aumaua instead of just recycling the other races' stuff. If that's a problem, there are still other ways to make them unique. Give them more/fewer fingers and toes. Make their eyes larger with frog-like irises and pupils. Maybe instead of hair, they can have hair-

like spines, crests, or tentacles.

 

You haven't shown the Orlans yet, but I hope they're less human-like to begin with. It was mentioned that they have two-toned skin. Maybe they could have short, fine, two-toned fur instead? Give them claws instead of fingernails and slitted pupils instead of round ones. Hopefully they're not just halflings with the barest minimum of changes.

 

I wanted to give some feedback on the earlier concept art too while I'm at it. I really liked the original Sagani painting. The design was aesthetically pleasing while not being "hot" or pandering, the proportions clearly indicated a separate race rather than just a short human, and the costume gave a lot of information about a believable culture that isn't usually associated with dwarfs. I've been less thrilled with the other designs, including Sagani's later art.

 

Edair's main problem is that he looks rather bland and directionless. I remember someone from Obsidian saying that this was deliberate since he's a character who wants to avoid drawing attention, but simply making the design bland is one of the worst ways to accomplish this. His design needs to be the visual equivalent of a stage whisper; implying that he's trying to stay out of the spotlight while still telling the player, "Pay attention! This is an interesting, important character." I'm not entirely sure how to accomplish this, but then again I'm not very good at doing a real stage whisper either.

 

Aloth looks pretty good/interesting. His design isn't perfect, but I'm not really sure why (perhaps too many clashing directions for his character? I dunno) and I'm reasonably satisfied with him.

 

I don't like Forton's art much, but this is the one design that plenty of people have already complained about, so I don't really need to expand on it. I will say that I like the idea that some people suggested of adding more elements of European flagellants to Project Eternity monks in addition to the Shaolin monk inspiration.

 

Cadegund is a character whose design is close to being good/great, but it's not quite there yet. It certainly helps that a female battle priest with heavy armor and a gun isn't something that you see every day in western RPGs. But her armor as it currently stands is too bland once again. It doesn't tell us enough about her. Is she someone who does a lot of fighting and adventuring, often far away from the help of her religious organization? If so, her armor could maybe be more scuffed and dented, or even show makeshift repairs. On the other hand, is she someone who enjoys the full and near-constant support of a powerful religion? In that case, maybe her armor should be more ornate. Or even combine the two ideas so that her church gives her beautiful, expensive

equipment which she inevitably ruins from all the fighting and adventuring she gets into!

 

Well that was a lot of criticism. Hopefully it was useful and constructive. Thank you Obsidian for making this game and thank you for the frequent updates, warts and all. I'm sure everything will turn out great in the end.

 

Edit: Fixed the formatting.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Gumbercules

[Mandragore]

I was also pretty dissatisfied with the Aumaua art. I think they looked like derpy humans with county fair tiger facepaint on. I think they definitely need to look more physically inhuman and more amphibious, gaunt gangly limbs and shark-like teeth etc. I agree it doesn't really make sense that they have hair, much less those corn rows, which looked totally ridiculous.

 

 

EDIT: You should start a poll to see how many people like the concept and how many hated it.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Mandragore

[Infinitron]

You don't need to use carriage returns on an Internet forum.

[mcmanusaur]

*fails to stifle the urge to say something about how all this could be avoided if human was the only race*

[Gumbercules]

I'm trying to think of options for a poll besides just a Good/Bad vote, and I think it might just be better for people to suggest improvements in their own words.

 

I'm not necessarily against Aumaua having hair if they decide to take them in an aquatic mammal direction, but it probably would look weird if they made them more fish-like or frog-like.

[Gumbercules]

You don't need to use carriage returns on an Internet forum.

 

Yeah, sorry. I originally typed the post in notepad and pasted it over, which messed up the formatting.

[rjshae]

Why are you all... urr?

[Mandragore]

I'm trying to think of options for a poll besides just a Good/Bad vote, and I think it might just be better for people to suggest improvements in their own words.

 

I'm not necessarily against Aumaua having hair if they decide to take them in an aquatic mammal direction, but it probably would look weird if they made them more fish-like or frog-like.

 

I just meant that the devs might take notice if they saw that a majority of fans were unhappy with the design. The poll can be for that with people posting suggestions in the thread itself.

[Sacred_Path]

Personally, I like the concept art so far.

 

All the companions so far look rather unremarkable. To me, that is in keeping with wanting to create a mature game. There's no need to create 'unfailing hero' templates. Much has been said about Forton already, and that only goes to show that he's not your stereotypical anime supercharacter immediately adopted by 15 year olds. There is a fan picture of Cadegund that is actually better than the concept sketch, but I don't doubt that the concept artists couldn't have come up with something equally interesting had they intended it (at this stage they certainly look intentionally bland).

 

Of all the characters, Edair probably had the most defined look so far as far as general expression goes. He's the only one that looked like he has an agenda.

 

I also p. much to my surprise liked the look of the Auamaua wizard. He looked a bit awkward in his outfit, too bulky for robes, but that's the nice thing about it. In my mind the "burly race" is never an immediate fit for a wizard, and the profession maybe doesn't come naturally to them. But what they lack in refinement they can make up for by brute strength (since melee is an option for mages in PE). Could Auamau in general look more distinct? Yes, though it begs the question of why that should be the case. If there's not a huge physical difference between the races in PE, Auamaua need not be the exception.

[Osvir]

I'm personally on the side that likes the art. I think many of us thought it was going to be more beastial (myself included) but seeing what the concept art is thus far I'm getting a grasp of what kind of world P:E is in conceptual genealogy, and a like-sized grasp of what Obsidian is aiming for. There are going to be Godlike races after all, could beastiality be tied to being some of the Godlike+Race?

 

A Human with the fish skin like Aumaua, a Half-Race to many but really a Human touched by one of the Aumaua Gods. Or an animal God has touched a Dwarf, making him more furry, beastial. How will the Godlike races affect the appearance of the core races?

Edited December 7, 2012 by Osvir

[A Diseased Cliff Racer]

Strangely enough I was also reminded of that Venture Bros. scene. I also wasn't even sure if they were Aumaua as they just kind of looked like ugly orcs in lame LARPing attire. I was expecting something a lot more original that at least even at the most cursory glance one wouldn't be able to mistake them for a particularly ugly human or orc.

[Hormalakh]

I, on the other hand, don't want flashy. It's a disagreement a lot of people will continue to have. I want a good tactical game with toned-down artistic direction that feels like a realistic, mature world would. I believe that by emphasizing exagerration in the world (big flashy armor, big flashy races, overly sexualized caricatures) this takes away from the feeling of maturity and playing the game for the ideas in it instead of the "pretty pictures."

 

I also have issues with the Aumaua, but I do not want beastial creatures that do not look like they fit in this world. When you have a world aiming for historical "accuracy" in its weapons/armor designs, putting in wildly exagerrated, overly fantastical races, makes it a little difficult to accept. The whole game has to evoke the same feeling - one of historical fantasy thsat deals in mature themes, ideas, and stories.

[Dawn_]

I don't think the concept can be defined by one race, character.

 

But by the world created itself. PE is trying to create a new world..with a total new background etc. It is really difficult to come up with something from ground zero.

Hence, i'd like to add that for me what define the concept art of PE is the Tower which define the general artistic sense the game is gonna take. I'd also add that originality is not what should struck you at first. If you're starting to look at every details..you're obviously gonna be disappointed.

Edair isn't original at all but you can feel the charisma of the character by the concept art.

 

An Unique world in a Dark Fantasy setting is what i expect from obsidian. This uniqueness isn't bound to art only. But background, depth.

[Gumbercules]

Why are you all... urr?

 

Ha! I can't help it, gotta urr! Believe me, I'm aware that it's a work in progress, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to influence its direction.

 

I just meant that the devs might take notice if they saw that a majority of fans were unhappy with the design. The poll can be for that with people posting suggestions in the thread itself.

 

Ok, If the thread ends up generating some good discussion I might go back and add a poll for each piece of art.

 

Personally, I like the concept art so far.

 

All the companions so far look rather unremarkable. To me, that is in keeping with wanting to create a mature game. There's no need to create 'unfailing hero' templates. Much has been said about Forton already, and that only goes to show that he's not your stereotypical anime supercharacter immediately adopted by 15 year olds. There is a fan picture of Cadegund that is actually better than the concept sketch, but I don't doubt that the concept artists couldn't have come up with something equally interesting had they intended it (at this stage they certainly look intentionally bland).

 

Of all the characters, Edair probably had the most defined look so far as far as general expression goes. He's the only one that looked like he has an agenda.

 

I also p. much to my surprise liked the look of the Auamaua wizard. He looked a bit awkward in his outfit, too bulky for robes, but that's the nice thing about it. In my mind the "burly race" is never an immediate fit for a wizard, and the profession maybe doesn't come naturally to them. But what they lack in refinement they can make up for by brute strength (since melee is an option for mages in PE). Could Auamau in general look more distinct? Yes, though it begs the question of why that should be the case. If there's not a huge physical difference between the races in PE, Auamaua need not be the exception.

 

I'm not necessarily arguing for a less mature, or more cartoonish setting and art direction. I just want Obsidian to convey more with each design. Good designs should tell a story all by themselves, regardless of whether or not they are intended for a mature audience.

 

The reason I want the Aumaua to look more distinct is to avoid the Uncanny Valley-like effect they're currently producing. If they look like their own species then there's less of a temptation to compare them to humans. They could also be made to look more like humans, I guess, but that would be boring, especially since elves and dwarves have that covered already.

[Hormalakh]

The reason I want the Aumaua to look more distinct is to avoid the Uncanny Valley-like effect they're currently producing. If they look like their own species then there's less of a temptation to compare them to humans. They could also be made to look more like humans, I guess, but that would be boring, especially since elves and dwarves have that covered already.

 

Orcs were the only race to ever be extremely different from humans until we had planetouched. Gnomes and halflings were also human-derived races. As were elves and dwarves, as you mentioned. I think that it's an interesting place they are trying to take the Aumaua. When you think of species that are different but all fall within the same category, oftentimes they look very similar but still distinctive. Look at the cat family in biology. Lions, tigers, lynxes, cats, jaguars, leopards etc all look similar, but they all are also different. Same with dogs: dogs, foxes, wolves, etc. Horses, mules, donkeys. I think that this is the direction they are trying to take with the Aumaua: they aren't orcs, but they fit in the human family of taxonomy.

 

Orcs on the other hand were outrageously different than humans. From Tolkien's taxonomy, they weren't even human based, and were based on the elves (which weren't supposed to be human based either, even though they had very distinctive human-like features).

Edited December 7, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Gumbercules]

Orcs were the only race to ever be extremely different from humans until we had planetouched. Gnomes and halflings were also human-derived races. As were elves and dwarves, as you mentioned. I think that it's an interesting place they are trying to take the Aumaua. When you think of species that are different but all fall within the same category, oftentimes they look very similar but still distinctive. Look at the cat family in biology. Lions, tigers, lynxes, cats, jaguars, leopards etc all look similar, but they all are also different. Same with dogs: dogs, foxes, wolves, etc. Horses, mules, donkeys. I think that this is the direction they are trying to take with the Aumaua: they aren't orcs, but they fit in the human family of taxonomy.

 

Orcs on the other hand were outrageously different than humans. From Tolkien's taxonomy, they weren't even human based, and were based on the elves (which weren't supposed to be human based either, even though they had very distinctive human-like features).

 

I guess then that one of the problems I have is the original descriptions that Obsidian gave for the races, back during the Kickstarter. They said we'd have the standard humans, elves, and dwarves, then godlike races who are similar to tieflings, genasi, etc. but with a twist, and then two unique, out-there races. To make the final two races so similar feels like a bit of a bait and switch.

 

If Tolkien can create races that are as different from humans as orcs are, why shouldn't Obsidian give it a shot?

 

Or alternatively, I guess I would be satisfied (but less so) if they kept them approximately how they are now and just revised the crap out of them until they look better.

[Sacred_Path]

I'm not necessarily arguing for a less mature, or more cartoonish setting and art direction. I just want Obsidian to convey more with each design. Good designs should tell a story all by themselves, regardless of whether or not they are intended for a mature audience.

 

I guessed that much, but as I said I think they've painted intentionally vague bodies/ poses/ outfits at this point. I doubt they have developed the backstory of each of the companions yet in full detail, and you don't want to end up with art that completely doesn't fit the narrative (it does work this way around, rite? You never know with these crazy artsy types :D )

 

The reason I want the Aumaua to look more distinct is to avoid the Uncanny Valley-like effect they're currently producing. If they look like their own species then there's less of a temptation to compare them to humans. They could also be made to look more like humans, I guess, but that would be boring, especially since elves and dwarves have that covered already.

 

I don't experience an uncanny valley effect when looking at them. They look very organic and believable to me Aside from strange skin patterns and a bulky physique they're quite human-like, that freaks you out?

 

I like Auamaua the way they are right now, but I wouldn't mind if they were turned into something more original of course. At the very least, it would be worth it if you hear DnD **** discussing Orcs, then think/ say "Remember PE? It had Auamaua. That was an awesome race"

[Hormalakh]

@gumbercules Eh I dunno. I could be wrong. At it stands, the Aumaua are still pretty out there. You said yourself you thought they were ugly, so they were good on their promise for them to be "out there." It's not that I disagree with you, but I can't really make a judgement on a black and white sketch of a new race. The fact that they still haven't officially called them the Aumaua leads me to believe that even they aren't totally satisfied with their conecpt as it stands.

[jivex5k]

Personally I'm not a big fan of animal type races like Lizardmen and Catpeople.

I wouldn't even care if the only race in this game was human.

I'd rather have them look more human than animal, animal races just look weird to me.

I can't take talking to a Khajit seriously...I mean it's a freaking cat face....I just want to cuddle and pet him.

 

Just my opinion.

Edited December 7, 2012 by jivex5k

[Gumbercules]

I guessed that much, but as I said I think they've painted intentionally vague bodies/ poses/ outfits at this point. I doubt they have developed the backstory of each of the companions yet in full detail, and you don't want to end up with art that completely doesn't fit the narrative (it does work this way around, rite? You never know with these crazy artsy types :D )

 

Hmm, I guess I imagined it more like the artists drawing a bunch of detailed possible directions and then just picking one once the backstory is nailed down. I'm mostly basing this on the behind the scenes stuff from the Lord of the Rings movies, where they pretty much drew every possible interpretation of the characters and creatures early on before finally settling on something. But they did have a much larger art team and budget, so that might be unrealistic.

 

I don't experience an uncanny valley effect when looking at them. They look very organic and believable to me Aside from strange skin patterns and a bulky physique they're quite human-like, that freaks you out?

 

Oh, they look organic and believable to me too, but in a dorky, awkward way. I think that should certainly be the case for individual characters, but not for entire races. And maybe it won't be in the end (after all, we only have a sample size of two at the moment).

 

@gumbercules Eh I dunno. I could be wrong. At it stands, the Aumaua are still pretty out there. You said yourself you thought they were ugly, so they were good on their promise for them to be "out there." It's not that I disagree with you, but I can't really make a judgement on a black and white sketch of a new race. The fact that they still haven't officially called them the Aumaua leads me to believe that even they aren't totally satisfied with their conecpt as it stands.

 

But humans can be ugly too (and PE should strive for a variety of attractiveness levels in all races if possible), but that doesn't make them unique.

 

I don't have a problem with making judgements early on, as long as we're not rude or histrionic. We can always revise our opinions with more data, and I'll be happy to say, "Great job with the art, Obsidian!" in the future.

 

Personally I'm not a big fan of animal type races like Lizardmen and Catpeople.

I wouldn't even care if the only race in this game was human.

I'd rather have them look more human than animal, animal races just look weird to me.

I can't take talking to a Khajit seriously...I mean it's a freaking cat face....I just want to cuddle and pet him.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I actually don't like Khajit-type humans-with-animal-heads races much either, unless there's a strong mythological basis to it. But there's a big difference between just slapping an animal head on a human body and calling it a day, and incorporating a variety of bestial features in a humanoid design.

[rjshae]

I enjoyed the two concept drawings in the current update. They express emotion, action, and a certain cultural distinctiveness. The wizard is a little paunchy with heavy calves, but his face and unyielding posture speak of experience and determination. That all looks good to me. Likewise, the barbarian is leaner and he possesses a reckless drive and courage that would unnerve many a weaker foe.

 

There's nothing to compare them against, so I can't quite get a sense of their size. But I'd guess they have normal human proportions, or perhaps even a little taller. It doesn't look like they spend much time in the water, so the origin of their flesh tones is a bit of a mystery.

 

The only slight suggestion I'd have for improving the illustrations is to add a lot more shading. At present there is little gradation in brightness, so that makes them look flat and a little cartoonish. Then again it's just concept art, and the shadows will show up during rendering.

[Dawn_]

I'm not necessarily arguing for a less mature, or more cartoonish setting and art direction. I just want Obsidian to convey more with each design. Good designs should tell a story all by themselves, regardless of whether or not they are intended for a mature audience.

 

Can't agree with this sentence at all.

"good designs should tell a story all by themselves".

 

Then the last Final Fantasy who have terrific design is a good game and have a good story ?

Then what about games from 80's ? They had awful design. But Even now we hardly game across half the joy they would bring us when we were playing them. Because they were really good game and they were deep.

 

A good design doesn't have to carry a story and even less i'd say it is only a support to the background.

The only thing it should convey is a general sense of aestetic that characterize a world and help you to increase the immersive part of this world.

But in the first place the most important part is the background, the theme that the game will abord, the complexity of the world, the religion, the economy, politics.

 

Right now the Aumaua design doesn't appeal you. But when the setting around this race will be done. With its story, gods, history , drama, all the little thing that makes a game alive. You won't care at all about their design. You will just enjoy the game and its creative and immersive world.

[Hormalakh]

From Sawyer

 

Edair is an ordinary guy, but Edair is not indicative of all characters. He isn't designed the way he is because I think "that's cool", but because it fits his character. He is an unassuming man who tries to keep a low profile. Other wilder/more exotic/unusual characters will be available (and you can make them on your own).

 

We started modeling Edair first in part because he is a very straightforward character. The problems we are trying to solve in modeling are not related to how cool the character can look, but to how we have to build and export characters in Maya, then into Unity. For such purposes, often the more straightforward characters are better because they're "neutral". Chain mail and leather not make you hop out of bed and scream OWOOOOOGA! but they're things we're pretty likely to have to create and they pose actual challenges for us when it comes to building and rendering it.

 

Someone compared the painted portrait of Sagani to the line art of Sagani. You can certainly compare them, but they're made for different purposes. Line art drawings like the ones Polina has done will probably never appear in the game. They're made as reference. Any coloring done after the fact is mostly just to give a sense of volume to the character and his/her gear. The painting of Sagani is a great portrait and we'd like all of our portraits to be that good and in a similar style -- but no one is going to build Sagani from the painting of her. She's in a cool pose with a determined expression, but you're mostly looking at her back and side.

 

I understand that people want to see more art, better art, and more unusual art. We will make it. It has always been our intention to do so, but a lot of the problems we're trying to solve right now are logistical, not quality-related, and while paintings like the one of Sagani or even the wallpaper of the whole party are exciting and beautiful, they don't necessarily help us build the game right now.

 

Thanks for all of your feedback.

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491414&page=167

[cdx]

I like the new sketches a lot. Especially the wizard looks great for humanoid with water environment influence.

 

Fish tend to have a gradient of colour on their bodies (usually from very light grey to quite dark grey/(brown/blue) rather than just one shade (e.g. human) and the face of the wizard captures that very well. His face also looks quite rigid which fits my understanding that skin of water creatures should be a bit harder. I would expect in general that race to show very little emotion due to very low facial flexiblity.

 

The barbarian deviates from this but it could make sense with parts of the face that are more rigid and others that are softer (such as on a carp). Also, fish tend to get body colour patterns depending on the type of water basin they live in (I mean fish of the same species). Ones that live in lakes with sandy bottoms would have more consistent colour of more or less one shade, while ones that live in places with lots of algae would have patterns.

 

Which explains why it would make a lot of sense to have many different skin patterns for this race. E.g. the barbarian's skin spots look a bit like the bits of fur she is wearing.

 

As for the previous concept art: the character sketches were done during the kickstarter. Back then things were being done quickly and it should be normal to have just a very basic sketch that kinda captures the essence of the character. Those sketches more than fulfilled their purpose.

 

Sagani's colour art was amazing, I'd be more than happy to have all game portraits in this art style. Detailed but not excessively so, should not take too long to do and it looks great. Fits the needs of the project perfectly.

[Ieo]

Really, my biggest issue with the concept art so far:

 

The staircase up to the second floor of the house has no wall or handrail or anything. SAFETY ISSUE?

 

 

I'm not necessarily arguing for a less mature, or more cartoonish setting and art direction. I just want Obsidian to convey more with each design. Good designs should tell a story all by themselves, regardless of whether or not they are intended for a mature audience.

 

Can't agree with this sentence at all.

"good designs should tell a story all by themselves".

 

Agreed. Aesthetic and narrative may be related only in the basal sense (e.g. this culture ekes out survival in the coastal tundra, therefore decoration is limited to char staining, and clothes are all dull gray from sealcattle hides), but a mature audience should also remember not to "judge a book by its cover."

 

It's all fine to me so far. (Forton's leg notwithstanding. )