Meanwhile in Palestine

[Volourn]

How is throwing away Palestinian lives 'winning'? Oh yea, my bad, Hamas doesn't care about their fellow Palestians as evidenced by the fact they enjoy murdering them.

[BruceVC]

This is a difficult political situation . I have sympathies with both sides, but I will say this (some of this has been stated before but its still my opinion)

• Hamas needs to at least recognize that Israel has a right to exist. So far they haven't
  
• The Palestinian delegation last year at the UN said that if they had there own state it would be "Jew Free". How does this help with reconciliation between Jews and Palestinians
  
• Hamas must stop firing rockets into Israel, its not the point that the rockets are basically ineffective. No country in this world would accept rockets being fired into there own territory. No country
  
• Hamas makes sure that they fire rockets from crowded civilian areas. They know that Palestinian civilians will be killed in retaliation from Israel. They use the civilian deaths as political capital. I found this practice despicable
  
• Israel needs to stop building settlements on contested land
  
• Israel must stop these controversial and covert military actions they make internationally. For example the assassination of that Hamas official in Dubai just showed there disrespect for all countries except the USA as they used stolen passports from many countries expect USA
  
• The killing of the Turkish activists on that ship by Israel was a huge political mistake. They need all the friends they can find in the area
  
• Both sides need to accept some kind of compromise around the land they both consider is there own due to religious history. Sadly I can't see an solution i n the near future. Once again a good example of religion causing strife rather than bringing people together
  

[obyknven]

How is throwing away Palestinian lives 'winning'? Oh yea, my bad, Hamas doesn't care about their fellow Palestians as evidenced by the fact they enjoy murdering them.

 

“Better to die fighting for freedom then be a prisoner all the days of your life.” ― Bob Marley.

[Felithvian]

“Better to die fighting for freedom then be a prisoner all the days of your life.” ― Bob Marley.

 

Of what purpose does it serve a man to gain everything in the world if in the end he looses his soul.

 

Our Father and King declared this World as their enemy. If Jesus Christ never raised a sword to defend it, how will a mere servant like yourself do so?

The King of men died as a martyr, so will his servants. A sinner cannot depose a sinner. DO NO RAISE THE SWORD, for you will enslave your soul to the eternal gehenna.

[Nepenthe]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

1) They are fanatics, their actions aren't necessarily rooted in any reality we perceive 2) because they are fanatics, they know that Israeli (over)reactions will just provide more foot soldiers for the Cause.

 

OTOH,

[Guard Dog]

Fighting Israel is good business for Hamas. As long as they keep it up the money keeps flowing in from Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and elsewhere. The leaders are all wealthy men living in Egypt and they have no intention of strapping on bombs themselves and certainly have little to fear from military reprisals. It's sad in many ways. The true believers are just pawns who have been manipulated.

 

Like most of you I can certainly sympathize with the Palestinians. The creation of the state of Israel was an act of tremendous hubris by the UN. However, it is sixty five years done and cannot be undone. Blowing up busloads of innocent people isn't going to change that and the combined might of all the middle east can't defeat them. And so far the Palestinians have rejected every peace overture for the simple reason that terrorism is a business. The day it stops the money stops. So it never will stop.

[obyknven]

Fighting Hamas is good business for Israel.

 

http://youtu.be/et7qhnt-xeg

 

http://www.informati...rticle10456.htm

 

 

Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

 

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

 

Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official.

 

According to documents United Press International obtained from the Israel-based Institute for Counter Terrorism, Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928. Islamic movements in Israel and Palestine were "weak and dormant" until after the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel scored a stunning victory over its Arab enemies.

 

After 1967, a great part of the success of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood was due to their activities among the refugees of the Gaza Strip. The cornerstone of the Islamic movements success was an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, called Da'wah, that worked to ease the hardship of large numbers of Palestinian refugees, confined to camps, and many who were living on the edge.

 

"Social influence grew into political influence," first in the Gaza Strip, then on the West Bank, said an administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

 

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

 

According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel. The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted to set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini's Iran.

 

What took Israeli leaders by surprise was the way the Islamic movements began to surge after the Iranian revolution, after armed resistance to Israel sprang up in southern Lebanon vis-�-vis the Hezbollah, backed by Iran, these sources said.

 

"Nothing provides the energy for imitation as much as success," commented one administration expert.

 

A further factor of Hamas' growth was the fact the PLO moved its base of operations to Beirut in the '80s, leaving the Islamic organization to grow in influence in the Occupied Territories "as the court of last resort," he said.

 

When the intifada began, Israeli leadership was surprised when Islamic groups began to surge in membership and strength. Hamas immediately grew in numbers and violence. The group had always embraced the doctrine of armed struggle, but the doctrine had not been practiced and Islamic groups had not been subjected to suppression the way groups like Fatah had been, according to U.S. government officials.

 

But with the triumph of the Khomeini revolution in Iran, with the birth of Iranian-backed Hezbollah terrorism in Lebanon, Hamas began to gain in strength in Gaza and then in the West Bank, relying on terror to resist the Israeli occupation.

 

Israel was certainly funding the group at that time. One U.S. intelligence source who asked not to be named said that not only was Hamas being funded as a "counterweight" to the PLO, Israeli aid had another purpose: "To help identify and channel towards Israeli agents Hamas members who were dangerous terrorists."

 

In addition, by infiltrating Hamas, Israeli informers could only listen to debates on policy and identify Hamas members who "were dangerous hard-liners," the official said.

 

In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acquiesce in its very existence.

 

But even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.

 

"Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with," he said.

 

All of which disgusts some former U.S. intelligence officials.

 

"The thing wrong with so many Israeli operations is that they try to be too sexy," said former CIA official Vincent Cannestraro.

 

According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism."

 

"The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer."

 

"They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it," he said.

 

Aid to Hamas may have looked clever, "but it was hardly designed to help smooth the waters," he said. "An operation like that gives weight to President George Bush's remark about there being a crisis in education."

 

Cordesman said that a similar attempt by Egyptian intelligence to fund Egypt's fundamentalists had also come to grief because of "misreading of the complexities."

 

An Israeli defense official was asked if Israel had given aid to Hamas said, "I am not able to answer that question. I was in Lebanon commanding a unit at the time, besides it is not my field of interest."

 

Asked to confirm a report by U.S. officials that Brig. Gen. Yithaq Segev, the military governor of Gaza, had told U.S. officials he had helped fund "Islamic movements as a counterweight to the PLO and communists," the official said he could confirm only that he believed Segev had served back in 1986.

 

more articles:

http://www.globalres...es/ZER403A.html

http://online.wsj.co...2295011847.html

[Bos_hybrid]

the combined might of all the middle east can't defeat them.

 

What? This is a joke right?

 

The combined might of the middle east would annihilate Israel, unless the UN steps in. Which would then make it WW3. Iran, Egypt and Syria, are not Iraq or Afghanistan. And that is not including Turkey a predominantly Muslim county, that wouldn't be too thrilled with the fact their Muslim brothers were dying at the hands of Israel and the west.

[HoonDing]

Israel is the most militarized country in the world, while the military of all Middle Eastern countries except for Turkey and Iran is laughable at best.

 

Not that they would attack Israel directly at this point because Israel has nukes.

[JFSOCC]

How is throwing away Palestinian lives 'winning'? Oh yea, my bad, Hamas doesn't care about their fellow Palestians as evidenced by the fact they enjoy murdering them.

And yet "we have chosen hamas to defend us" was a literal line of a gaza-strip palestinian recently interviewed.

There was some fighting between Hamas and Fatah. Divide and conquer at work, since the gaza strip and the west bank now each have different leadership.

[Malcador]

Well that one Palestinian getting shot didn't count as a breach so that's good.

[exodiark]

Hey, it's war, all is fair. The strong will prey the weak, just like in the wild.

 

Or, If Palestinian don't want to keep losing and dying left and right, they should:

a. Lift, bro. Get buffed. Ask China, UAE, or Russia to back them, which I don't think they would anyway, since there's nothing worthwhile for them to take.

b. Surrender and see their land assimilated without conflict. Kinda not cool, but at least nobody dies in war.

c. Maintain status quo by declaring cease fires after each conflict, which are quite futile I'd say. They won't even tire Israel's military, and Israel will slowly take their lands through diplomacy or by force during the conflict.

 

In the end, the difference in power and resources are just too great.

Realistically, Hamas just can't win against a country that survived Yom Kippur war alone. Well, not alone, with help of USA, but still, it's a feat. And that's in 1973. I don't want to think how one-sided 2012 weaponry against cold war relics.

[Meshugger]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

It's desperation. The world only looks when there is clear conflict

 

So they are too stupid to do anything else? I simply refuse to believe that a region of 1,5 million see this as their only way to gain any form of independence.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

 

AGX-17 answered this some posts above. The Israeli have proven time and time again that diplomacy with them is useless. In "peace time" the Isreali simply spend their time systematically stealing Palestinian homes and land.

 

What are you suggesting then? Mass genocide? Living in a world of false dichotomy will get you nowhere.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

BruceVC seems to be the most levelheaded on the issue. And from South Africa out of all places.

[Oerwinde]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

1) They are fanatics, their actions aren't necessarily rooted in any reality we perceive 2) because they are fanatics, they know that Israeli (over)reactions will just provide more foot soldiers for the Cause.

 

OTOH,

 

I never understood the makeup of the UN plan. Why would they get any of that southern land? Just give them the north, and the Palestinians the south, with Jerusalem as an independent city-state

[BruceVC]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

1) They are fanatics, their actions aren't necessarily rooted in any reality we perceive 2) because they are fanatics, they know that Israeli (over)reactions will just provide more foot soldiers for the Cause.

 

OTOH,

 

I never understood the makeup of the UN plan. Why would they get any of that southern land? Just give them the north, and the Palestinians the south, with Jerusalem as an independent city-state

 

I tend to agree, it may seem simple but its does seem fair. I think though the issue is about both sides feel they have historical rights to parts of the land in the North and South, so they won't compromise?

[Farbautisonn]

Well... Ponder this:

 

The problems isnt with "palestinians". The problem is with Hamas's "Gaza".

 

There comes no rockets and extremely few "episodes" from the West bank. Strange... as the West Bank has equally many factions, is significantly larger, has better access to weapons, and logistics, more people and yet Fatah is able to keep a lid on most of the crap... Whilst Hamas seemlingly "cant stop rogues", but CAN ferret out "Zionist collaborators" (fatah members or just random people they dont like apparently) plug them and then drive them through the streets towed after a bike. Hamas can also levy "taxes" on the tunnels, "protection fees" from hotels, shops and other enterprises, has "guard duty" and "consultant work" for the UN in Gaza.

 

And despite the hundreds (or thousands depending on sources) of rockets going into Israel, Israel still lets convoys through to the "extermination camp" (that btw has obesity problems and five star luxory hotels), Israel still provides electricity, medical services, and other essentials. Israel didnt go russian tactics and field MRLS with sattelite uplinks that instantly fires barrages at firering points. Instead they have the curtesy to emply Cellphone calls and drop pamphlets that explain "we are comming, go there, do this and you will be safe". Do others do that? Have they ever? They also invest in "passive" or "reactive" material... IE the "Dome" tech. Stuff that fetches a percentage of the incomming rocketry.

 

I find the "nazi" analogies and comparisons that you hear in many discussions on this topic to be rather vile. They water out the terms to the point where they mean nothing. "Nazi" has all but lost its sting in most discussions, and has mostly reached the point where a guy who is called a "nazi" will triumphantly call "Ad Hitlerum" and the person employing the term will default on all credibility.

 

Im not claiming that Israel is flawless or do not do critizisable stuff. But I just find it odd that its seemlingly only Gaza that has "issues".

[JFSOCC]

One should wonder why Hamas or any other anti-Israel fighter bother with those petty rockets. I mean Israel has proven since 1948 that they will answer with full-scale war each for each provocation. Maybe give some sort diplomacy a chance or do they simply think that the collateral damage caused to their own people as an acceptable loss?

1) They are fanatics, their actions aren't necessarily rooted in any reality we perceive 2) because they are fanatics, they know that Israeli (over)reactions will just provide more foot soldiers for the Cause.

 

OTOH,

 

I never understood the makeup of the UN plan. Why would they get any of that southern land? Just give them the north, and the Palestinians the south, with Jerusalem as an independent city-state

that has to do with history. You don't want to uproot entire peoples and make them move somewhere they've never lived before. those places are historically where the Palestinians lived.

Edit: Imagine the hatred you'd sow if you forced hundreds of thousands to move away from their childhood homes, with everything they've ever known.

Edited November 24, 2012 by JFSOCC

[JFSOCC]

Well... Ponder this:

 

The problems isnt with "palestinians". The problem is with Hamas's "Gaza".

 

There comes no rockets and extremely few "episodes" from the West bank. Strange... as the West Bank has equally many factions, is significantly larger, has better access to weapons, and logistics, more people and yet Fatah is able to keep a lid on most of the crap... Whilst Hamas seemlingly "cant stop rogues", but CAN ferret out "Zionist collaborators" (fatah members or just random people they dont like apparently) plug them and then drive them through the streets towed after a bike. Hamas can also levy "taxes" on the tunnels, "protection fees" from hotels, shops and other enterprises, has "guard duty" and "consultant work" for the UN in Gaza.

 

And despite the hundreds (or thousands depending on sources) of rockets going into Israel, Israel still lets convoys through to the "extermination camp" (that btw has obesityproblems and five star luxoryhotels), Israel still provides electricity, medical services, and other essentials. Israel didnt go russian tactics and field MRLS with sattelite uplinks that instantly fires barrages at firering points. Instead they have the curtesy to emply Cellphone calls and drop pamphlets that explain "we are comming, go there, do this and you will be safe". Do others do that? Have they ever? They also invest in "passive" or "reactive" material... IE the "Dome" tech. Stuff that fetches a percentage of the incomming rocketry.

 

I find the "nazi" analogies and comparisons that you hear in many discussions on this topic to be rather vile. They water out the terms to the point where they mean nothing. "Nazi" has all but lost its sting in most discussions, and has mostly reached the point where a guy who is called a "nazi" will triumphantly call "Ad Hitlerum" and the person employing the term will default on all credibility.

 

Im not claiming that Israel is flawless or do not do critizisable stuff. But I just find it odd that its seemlingly only Gaza that has "issues".

I don't even know where to begin the amount of incorrect information you have.

Israel giving electricity to the Palestinians? they're supposed to, but they don't. Medical services? bull****. Obesity is a condition that correlates strongly with poverty, not affluence and your link to the 5 star hotel leads to the obesity study. (but having a hotel doesn't mean it's in great repair, nor that people actually visit.)

[Farbautisonn]

don't even know where to begin the amount of incorrect information you have.

Israel giving electricity to the Palestinians? they're supposed to, but they don't. Medical services? bull****. Obesity is a condition that correlates strongly with poverty, not affluence and your link to the 5 star hotel leads to the obesity study. (but having a hotel doesn't mean it's in great repair, nor that people actually visit.)

 

Oh... ok. If You could start by refuting these sources that would be just aces then.

 

Electricity. Both the Diesel to power the palestinian plant and the extra to alliviate some of the shortcommings in the palestinian territories (some 160MW) come from Israel. Its been discussed if pulling the plug wouldnt be a good Idea, but since they dont supply any energy, then Israel can just do the crime since they are allready doing the time (public relations wise). Israel can use the power better on its own. Send a nice letter to Israel where you refuse the power and the diesel. That would be aces. Thanks.

 

Medical services? Well, Israel does that too. From Haniyas brother in laws heart problems to Childbirth. Cancer patients and women to be treated for burns who decide to wear bomb belts to blow up hospitals. From the Al Jazeera Article:

 

"A report was released in March by Israel’s Civil Administration announcing that 115,000 Palestinians were treated in Israel in 2011, a rise from the previous year by 13 percent according to The Jewish Press news website. Over 100 Palestinian doctors were trained at Israeli hospitals and five organ transplants took place in Israel to save the lives of Palestinian patients".

 

Wrong link for the hotel. Sorry. Here it is. .

 

Obesity and poverty does have some correlation. But generally speaking, if you are obese, you have stuff you can eat. You might get a wrong diet (and I believe the staple for the poorest in the region is basically wheat products (white bread) and oil, Both of which arent precisely benificial to your healty, but we arent talking Gulag or KZesque hunger camps, correct?

 

I am ofcourse looking forward to you debunking all of the articles, especially that of Al Jazeera. Im looking forward to hearing how you will blame the Foxnews of the mid east for taking a "pro zionist" bias.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Farbautisonn

[JFSOCC]

besides the fact that your evidence is anecdotal, they don't prove anything. Yes, within Israel there are those who choose to help. Yes Israel does supply some energy, but not nearly enough, only after they destroyed power plants in earlier war, and only as lipservice to international requests. the Palestinian on the ground doesn't get any better from it.

 

That Palestinians are treated in Israel has to do with the medical ethics code more than Israeli politics, and the fact that help in the occupied territories is lacking.

As for hunger...

 

Edit: and let's not bring Fox news into this.

Edited November 24, 2012 by JFSOCC

[Farbautisonn]

My evidence is "andecdotal"... Really? So...The sources I have are completely untrue then? Thats just grand. Its "hearsay" and "didnt happen"... except now Israel supply "some" energy but since they dont supply "enough" that invalidates facts? Really? Where is that sort of logic acceptable? I want to know. Ill be able to get a Ph.d. In rhetoric from there in no time too. :D.

 

Facts are, you stated that Israel did not supply power nor treat palestinians and I proved they did. Sorry scooter. You lost.

[Zoraptor]

There comes no rockets and extremely few "episodes" from the West bank. Strange... as the West Bank has equally many factions, is significantly larger, has better access to weapons, and logistics, more people and yet Fatah is able to keep a lid on most of the crap...

Hmm. Wrong (Fatah has killed off/ suppressed most of the antagonist factions in WB, much as Hamas has in the GS); yes, but irrelevant as all it does is give Israel far larger buffer strips around palestinian areas; it has far worse access to weapons as Israel controls all the border to a significant depth as opposed to Egypt controlling some of the GS's border; and no, the WB has ~600k people, the GS has 1.2 million and is the most densely populated region on earth.

 

Not a great start there.

 

Whilst Hamas seemlingly "cant stop rogues", but CAN ferret out "Zionist collaborators" (fatah members or just random people they dont like apparently) plug them and then drive them through the streets towed after a bike. Hamas can also levy "taxes" on the tunnels, "protection fees" from hotels, shops and other enterprises, has "guard duty" and "consultant work" for the UN in Gaza.

It's not in Hamas's best interests to spend their time fighting their 'friends', much as it wasn't worth Israel's time fighting the Phalangists and SLA despite them merrily torturing and murdering their way through southern Lebanon for 20 years, or it wasn't worth it for the US to rein in the rightist paramilitaries in Latin America. That's realpolitik for you, and if you're going to criticise one you gotta criticise the other as well.

 

As for the rest, governments gonna govern. Executing agents of a foreign power in times of war is not illegal- I can provide a list as long as your arm of Western examples, should you wish to push the point- and if it weren't Hamas those levies would be called... taxes, levies and the like, without the quote marks.

 

And despite the hundreds (or thousands depending on sources) of rockets going into Israel, Israel still lets convoys through to the "extermination camp"

No. Not to the act itself, but to any moral plusage to be gained from it. Israel has an absolute obligation under international law to provide the means of life to its occupied territories, and under international law that is what Gaza is. Failure to do so would be a Crime Against Humanity and is the sort of thing even the US would probably not be able to insulate Israel from. It's also used as a further cudgel to bludgeon and control with as they can, and do, turn stuff off on a whim.

 

Run down the whole area with your blockade, refuse to allow in basic constriction materials or for the palestinians to get money or construct stuff themselves, then claim credit for alleviating the suffering you yourself caused. A great strategy to convince the ignorant, not so much the well informed.

 

I find the "nazi" analogies and comparisons that you hear in many discussions on this topic to be rather vile.

Apartheid or Bantustaning are far more accurate accusations.

 

Im not claiming that Israel is flawless or do not do critizisable stuff. But I just find it odd that its seemlingly only Gaza that has "issues".

There are massive issues on the WB too, but that is ratcheted down because the Palestinians are far less there population wise and they are corralled into regions surrounded on all sides and in depth by checkpoints, settler only roads, settlements themselves, a 30' wall, and the like.

[JFSOCC]

My evidence is "andecdotal"... Really? So...The sources I have are completely untrue then? Thats just grand. Its "hearsay" and "didnt happen"... except now Israel supply "some" energy but since they dont supply "enough" that invalidates facts? Really? Where is that sort of logic acceptable? I want to know. Ill be able to get a Ph.d. In rhetoric from there in no time too. :D.

 

Facts are, you stated that Israel did not supply power nor treat Palestinians and I proved they did. Sorry scooter. You lost.

Anecdotal evidence is evidence of "instances" it in itself is not enough. For instance you mentioned that Gaza has a 5 star hotel. From this we're supposed to infer that everything is fine and dandy in that country. When in fact, the fact that it is just the one, and nothing is said about it's success (other than that it wasn't open yet). That hotel is going to fail, obviously. so it fails as evidence. I did present you with evidence refuting the claim that there is enough food in Gaza, and I did it with stronger evidence than the obesity study that you presented.