Forton is a Joke!

[CommonOddity]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that during one of the updates someone (Chris Avellone?) was talking about Forton specifically, and how he's virtually substance-abused everything known to man (and still does?)

 

I mean, being monk puts you in shape, it's going to do that. But if you are that drugged out that consistently, wouldn't that explain a lot of the ways his body differs from our normal preconceptions. (Especially considering harder drugs? We are talking Hippy-freelove kinda drug user, we are talking like heroin and cocaine for years kinda drug user.)

 

I for one think that I would prefer Obsidian to give me this unique character as opposed to some homogeneous design based upon the stereotypes of a few people without enough imagination to play in a world where the rules and the histories are different from out own.

 

 

Actually, it is for exactly this reason that I think Forton is a brilliant character.

 

As someone with a rather colorful past (Oh could I ever share some tales...), I can completely appreciate the sentiment of the black sheep in the category. You're to say that all priests are purely holy and without something that taints their supposedly sacred vocation? Humans are human. They have flaws.

 

I am more-so interested in Forton now than before, actually. This little nugget of information leads to a more interesting an colorful persona that is definitely worth exploring (i.e. characters riddled with complexities versus simpler and of-fewer-dimensions characters that are knocked off from some overly used template)

 

Edit: "You're to say that all priests are purely holy and without something that taints their supposedly sacred vocation? Humans are human. They have flaws." -> 'you' pertaining to anyone, not OP.

Edited November 13, 2012 by CommonOddity

[Amentep]

I just hope we can buy the poor bastard a shirt. It gets cold while spelunking 15 level mega dungeons and imagine how bad it must hurt to take an arrow to the nipple!

 

FORTON: "I used to be an adventurer...until I took an arrow to my nipple".

[Agelastos]

I don't see how it's racist to not want random East Asian elements in a setting based on medieval Europe (and possibly, to a lesser extent, the Near East).

As I've said before, I don't mind his appearance as long as he has an interesting personality and doesn't look completely generic, but I would prefer if he looked more like an ascetic warrior from some European religious Military Order. Partly because I think it would fit the setting better, partly because I think it would be more interesting because... well, it's far less common in fantasy games.

 

Now, if he is supposed to be an expat from a different culture, perhaps one with a bit of an Asian flavor, then fine. I just don't want another Forgotten Realms, where there's lots of oriental-style monk orders, with no apparent ties to Kara-Tur, just thrown into the mix because it's "cool".

 

Even if a Shaolin monk would have hitched a ride with Marco Polo and started a monastic order of warrior monks in Europe, you can be damn sure that it's members wouldn't have been wearing Chinese clothing or spouting eastern philosophy. The Church would never have stood for it. And even if it did, European culture would still have transformed the order into something completely different in no time, even if they kept the whole martial pacifist thing going. But a Shaolin-esque monk order with the philosophy and aesthetics of a European Military Order, like the Knights Templars or Knight Hospitallers, now that could be interesting IMO.

[Amentep]

While I don't disagree with your excellent points about Europe and medieval Europe and the transformative effect of two cultures when introduced to one another, the big sticking point for many people is that Project Eternity isn't set in Europe.

[Sykid]

Kreia is proof that just because a character is "old" doesn't make them boring.

 

True.

They can also inspire seeting hatered to the point you jsts want to bash their faces in with a morningstar...and keep whacking.

 

It always seems like the most popular NPCs are the ones who evoke either the greatest fandom or utter loathing from players.

[Osvir]

Forton is badass, hardened and resolute. He is distant, and found often in deep thought. Sometimes he'll splurt out nonsense due to the drugs that are keeping him alive. He serves a higher purpose... *splat*

 

Eh maybe not... *washes off boot* I look at him and he seems distant. A darker and deeper type of Monk, not very "happy-go-lucky", vibrates closer to the soul. The hair is difficult but meh, maybe he just doesn't care what others think about him because he's lost in some other space floating in-between on spiritual addiction. So much that he, who is a strong believer in mortification of the flesh (which is a term for someone who abandons pleasure, clothes or whatever makes them feel they achieve a certain "step", ~kind of), sheds his clothes and other belongings because in his faith it is not something he needs.

 

Found this too, and Forton would rock this:

http://upload.wikime...2_by_shakko.jpg

Edited November 13, 2012 by Osvir

[Tsuga C]

The more I think about it, the more I start to hate the fact that monks exist as a class in this game.

 

Couldn't agree more. If this is to be a pseudo-Western setting, then the Hong Kong Phooey stuff has little to no business being included. If one of the two major cities is the equivalent of Constantinople, a crossroads of the world (think Silk Road), then perhaps they could be included. I'm still not at all thrilled about their presence, though.

[Hormalakh]

It's not Europe nor is it medieval. Per the discussions here, we should change Sagani too. And the Vailians can't be Afro-italians.

 

The time period is meant to be in the 1400's.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Agelastos]

While I don't disagree with your excellent points about Europe and medieval Europe and the transformative effect of two cultures when introduced to one another, the big sticking point for many people is that Project Eternity isn't set in Europe.

 

Of course, but it's heavily inspired by Late Medieval Europe, so blatantly East Asian elements still feel out of place. Now, that may not be a problem if there's a good explanation for it, but otherwise...

 

 

The time period is meant to be in the 1400's.

 

Which would make it the Late Middle Ages/Renaissance. It's still the Middle Ages, however.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Agelastos

[Amentep]

 

Of course, but it's heavily inspired by Late Medieval Europe, so blatantly East Asian elements still feel out of place. Now, that may not be a problem if there's a good explanation for it, but otherwise...

 

There's a difference, though, between inspired by Medieval Europe and being Medieval Europe.

 

The advantage in a situation like Project Eternity (over, say D&D) is that they can build the monk class history into the setting from the beginning and thus show how / why it developed organically in the campaign setting (which isn't Europe).

Edited November 13, 2012 by Amentep

[Hormalakh]

While I don't disagree with your excellent points about Europe and medieval Europe and the transformative effect of two cultures when introduced to one another, the big sticking point for many people is that Project Eternity isn't set in Europe.

 

Of course, but it's heavily inspired by Late Medieval Europe, so blatantly East Asian elements still feel out of place. Now, that may not be a problem if there's a good explanation for it, but otherwise...

 

It would seem like I disagree, but I completely agree with you. I don't have any issue with it being any certain culture as long as it's described correctly. But saying that a certain lore item or culture should be a certain way because "duh this is Europe" is not a reasoned argument for this game.

 

At the same time, if we are to take from other cultures as our inspirations and incorporate them into the game, we have to be cognizant of our biases. Be it Irish influences, German, or Asian. I'm tired of stereotypes and poorly researched games.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Agelastos]

Of course, but it's heavily inspired by Late Medieval Europe, so blatantly East Asian elements still feel out of place. Now, that may not be a problem if there's a good explanation for it, but otherwise...

 

There's a difference, though, between inspired by Medieval Europe and being Medieval Europe.

 

The advantage in a situation like Project Eternity (over, say D&D) is that they can build the monk class history into the setting from the beginning and thus show how / why it developed organically in the campaign setting (which isn't Europe).

 

That's not really the problem. The problem here, IMO, is not that there are Asian style monk orders, but that they dress in a way that looks so out of place. Unless they've recently migrated to... w/e the PE continent is called, they should dress more in accordance with the culture of that continent. But it's not really a big deal.

[Amentep]

Depends, maybe they do dress in the style of [part] of the continent? Kinda hard to say at the moment.

[Joukehainen]

:D This is thread is the best

[LadyCrimson]

That's not really the problem. The problem here, IMO, is not that there are Asian style monk orders, but that they dress in a way that looks so out of place. Unless they've recently migrated to... w/e the PE continent is called, they should dress more in accordance with the culture of that continent. But it's not really a big deal.

But we don't really know what is in "accordance" with the continent at this time. I doubt every town/city/region on the continent has the same dress fashion, let alone weather.

California, for example, is a large state with many different climates (desert, high mountain, sea level, everything inbetween). P.E.'s continent doesn't necessarily only have one climate model, which can influence dress, for example.

 

Edit: besides, in-game, aren't we supposed to be able to dress people the way we want (armored mages, right)? So I'm sure if you want to, you can make Forton wear some plate armor instead of flimsy cotton pants and no shirt, to some degree, if you want.

Edited November 13, 2012 by LadyCrimson

[Agelastos]

That's not really the problem. The problem here, IMO, is not that there are Asian style monk orders, but that they dress in a way that looks so out of place. Unless they've recently migrated to... w/e the PE continent is called, they should dress more in accordance with the culture of that continent. But it's not really a big deal.

But we don't really know what is in "accordance" with the continent at this time. I doubt every town/city/region on the continent has the same dress fashion, let alone weather.

California, for example, is a large state with many different climates (desert, high mountain, sea level, everything inbetween). P.E.'s continent doesn't necessarily only have one climate model, which can influence dress, for example.

 

That is true, but if you look at... let's say Sweden and Spain during the Late Middle Ages, two countries with very different climates, they still had very similar dress fashions because they were part of the same religious cultural sphere. Of course, P.E.'s continent may not be as homogenous as Late Medieval Europe was (that is not to say that there wasn't great cultural diversity in Europe during that period, a huge chunk of Eastern Europe was under Ottoman rule after all), but I still find it a little odd to find East Asian clothing there.

But, it may all make sense once we know a little bit more about the game world and it's lore.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Agelastos

[Jorian Drake]

Of course, but it's heavily inspired by Late Medieval Europe, so blatantly East Asian elements still feel out of place. Now, that may not be a problem if there's a good explanation for it, but otherwise...

 

There's a difference, though, between inspired by Medieval Europe and being Medieval Europe.

 

The advantage in a situation like Project Eternity (over, say D&D) is that they can build the monk class history into the setting from the beginning and thus show how / why it developed organically in the campaign setting (which isn't Europe).

 

That's not really the problem. The problem here, IMO, is not that there are Asian style monk orders, but that they dress in a way that looks so out of place. Unless they've recently migrated to... w/e the PE continent is called, they should dress more in accordance with the culture of that continent. But it's not really a big deal.

 

clothes could just as well be part of some religious code of how to dress, to take a fantasy example see the Red Priests in A Song of Ice and Fire (as seen in books or the recent RPG Game of Thrones)

 

In this case no matter what culture the people originate from, they would still follow the original dress code more than not, even if it looks out of place

 

some religions dictate how to dress, others dictate how NOT to (and some do both), maybe some in this setting require you to wear monk-like clothes, or ban the ownership and wearing of any kind of symbols or idolry (who knows what else there may be)

[Agelastos]

 

clothes could just as well be part of some religious code of how to dress, to take a fantasy example see the Red Priests in A Song of Ice and Fire (as seen in books or the recent RPG Game of Thrones)

 

In this case no matter what culture the people originate from, they would still follow the original dress code more than not, even if it looks out of place

 

some religions dictate how to dress, others dictate how NOT to (and some do both), maybe some in this setting require you to wear monk-like clothes, or ban the ownership and wearing of any kind of symbols or idolry (who knows what else there may be)

 

Good point.

 

"The night is dark and full of terrors"

Edited November 13, 2012 by Agelastos

[SophosTheWise]

I have chinese friends so I can't be racist.

Fixed it for you.

 

False. I was simply telling that I, growing up and living in an extremely diverse city, have no problem with different cultures whatsoever, thus disproving the thesis that the "all people who don't like monks in their games are eurocentristic racists"-myth. The ex-boyfriend of my mother even was a muslim and I've lived in the same ****ing appartment with him for eight years, discussing philosophy from around the world. My aversion against non-European influences in games has nothing to do with my political views or any prejudices.

 

 

Regardless of what you think you are, you still have prejudices and biases like everyone else in the world.

 

 

Yes, that is probably correct.

 

This isn't a medieval simulator.

I don't care. It could be a fairy-elf-mutant-powerranger-simulator and I'd still don't like certain things in them that do not fit in this setting.

 

Why don't you have issues with Sagani then? She's not "European."

Because I simply didn't know her, just googled her and honestly, I don't like her either. I don't know what she's supposed to look like but she looks like a mix of native-american and viking, both of which I'm not overly fond of. Instead of saying it's racist to like other (fictional or historical) cultures better than the other is ridiculous. When I was around 16-18, I was extremely into Germanic/viking stuff, then I really liked the Celtic setting and now I'm into late middle-ages and early-renaissance. I don't see what the big fuss is all about.

 

Whether people like it or not, the world will continue to be diverse and multiculturalism will continue to occur. Deal with it.

 

Yes, and that is an extremely great thing - I think we're on the same page there.

 

To continue to think of our fantasy worlds as "white-only" worlds and to decry worlds that do not fit this model to be "immersion breaking" is just another way to be neo-racist.

I think you didn't really understand my point. I don't have a problem with coloured people, at all. i don't have a problem with other cultures - I have a problem, when they are implemented stupid, and in D&D it's as stupid as it gets, it's an incoherent mess. I never had this problem until I began LARPing and LARP in Europe is a pretty big deal, 4000 people and such. There you have Roman legions fighting Orcs, an army of undead fighting pirates, high-medieval soldiers battling a steampunk-tank. It just looks silly. It's like those overkill-movies with robots, zombies and ninjas. I just can't take it seriously. Make it serious, make it matter. Why is Forton there? The answer can't be, because he's there and the game is diverse. I want meaning behind it, I want something with grip. That worked really well in Torment with Dak'kon for example who was totally outlandish and still it made sense somehow, that he was there.

 

Sometimes I imagine the D&D creators like this: "Oh boy, we have a working party with a rogue, a warrior, a bard and a wizard. We could need new classes! YEAH NINJAS WOULD BE GREAT AND SAMURAI! OMG!" And then they exist. Without reason.

 

Medieval Europe, which this game isn't, wasn't filled with only "white people." Renaissance Europe had plenty of mixing with Middle Eastern/Asian/African cultures, and diverse people lived in those locales. People of different colors traveled the world then, and they travel the world now.

And now tell me something I didn't know.

 

 

Edit: What I forgot: I don't like fantasy worlds that mirror our values. That happened so many times at LARPs that I could start to cry. "No we will not attack the Orks, they're living creatures after all!" and some sort of bullcrap. It's a lot more challenging to pursue a medieval or ancient approach on morals. So yes, there is torture, rape, arson and what not.

Edited November 13, 2012 by SophosTheWise

[Jorian Drake]

"she looks like a mix of native-american and viking, both of which I'm not overly fond of"

 

It is good then that here are no native-americans (or America to begin with) and vikings, nor Europe or anything you can call an European Medieval Era.

 

Just because there were roads made by the Inca no one would have a silly right to complain and bash it because there was also roman roads in Europe. This setting is not RL Earth, I myself had also issues getting used to the "viking" theme of Skyrim but the story and background made this celtic-viking culture fit into the world setting well.

 

I don't know why she or other characters look like they do, but most probably they have good reasons to look as they do, and maybe their cultural background is explained as well as the Dornish is in ASoIaF. Simply hating on them because they look indian or viking or whatever is just childish. Especially as these are just char concepts and who knows how in the end they weill appear as in the final game.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Jorian Drake

[Hellfell]

... Emerging a badass ...

 

[jivex5k]

Personally, I'd love to see a cornucopia of culturally inspired designs in the game.

Why can't there be room for multiple cultures?

Why can't a European inspired culture exist near an Asian inspired culture?

Can't there be travelers from distant lands as well?

 

No reason to limit your options because you feel it's cliche.

 

This game is not set in a European Medieval culture AFAIK. It's a new world!

Edited November 13, 2012 by jivex5k

[Osvir]

I didn't like this, because I didn't understand it (Wizardry 8 ) what with the Sci-Fi. But is it plausible that a Godlike-race could be technological-ish?

 

This is what I thought ouf Hellfell when I saw that, a medieval FOX unit in full metal armor fighting in close range combat? Could be cool, Metalman Rage!:

Edited November 13, 2012 by Osvir

[Hormalakh]

@Jive5k Yeah, I agree. As long as things are properly thought through, I don't have a problem. Being sensitive to others' cultures and how we portray them is obviously not what OEI is known for, and as gamers we shouldn't be promoting games that have thoughtless design when being inspired by these cultures.

 

@Sophos - Apologies for the misunderstanding. I think we agree for the most part. I just don't think that this is meant to be a medieval European-styled fantasy. There will likely be multiple cultures within those areas. It will not really resemble Earth in the historical OR geographical/anthropological sense. Will wait to see more from developers though.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Joukehainen]

I like Monks, and Forton's ok. My main issue is the balding head feels out of proportion or something, it does look odd. Too tall of forehead perhaps.

 

It's the hair, isn't it? I agree.

 

Here's my rendition of a better Forton (feel free to use this for the final game Obsidian)

 

Can't beat that, but I was staring at his face, and what it actually reminds me of is:

 

 

 

 

I'm loving these photoshops, pliz ignore the trolls and let's keep these coming :D

Edited November 13, 2012 by Joukehainen