Mature themes

[Osvir]

While rape, sex, and racism, should be included for the sake of realism, just slapping them on and declaring that PE is a mature game would feel like a cop out.

 

Although I agree with you I feel that some grounds could be explored in less detail. Why? Because this is a powerful subject. Being Gay is sexual but rape is bad. Period.

 

Having a psycho Cipher that rapes the mind of your character in detail and horror can be traumatizing if too realistic. Don't neglect the power of your own mind, specially if P:E is going to be as immersible as people seem to want it here.

 

Amnesia, if it would show the same extraordinaire genius and horror of its own creation but focus all that energy into rape I believe it could just be a disturbing feature no one wants to see and would puke at it. In a more subtle way, where there is implication of it having happened or "fade to black" and then we can destroy the bastards that did it, or even hunt them down and redeem them after teaching them a hard lesson (nothing sexual, but definitely physical).

 

What I'm trying to say is...

 

Please Obsidian, don't rape us.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Although I agree with you I feel that some grounds could be explored in less detail. Why? Because this is a powerful subject. Being Gay is sexual but rape is bad. Period.

 

Having a psycho Cipher that rapes the mind of your character in detail and horror can be traumatizing if too realistic. Don't neglect the power of your own mind, specially if P:E is going to be as immersible as people seem to want it here.

 

Amnesia, if it would show the same extraordinaire genius and horror of its own creation but focus all that energy into rape I believe it could just be a disturbing feature no one wants to see and would puke at it. In a more subtle way, where there is implication of it having happened or "fade to black" and then we can destroy the bastards that did it, or even hunt them down and redeem them after teaching them a hard lesson (nothing sexual, but definitely physical).

 

I don't want rape to be explored in full detail or anything(like a cinematic or something), but it should be included/referenced/acknowledged. Bandits would probably rape their hostages, soldiers would probably rape villagers in conquered areas. It would just seem strange if the horrible bandits just abducted people and acted menacingly and really didn't do anything truly awful.

 

What I'm trying to say is...

 

Please Obsidian, don't rape us.

 

I wouldn't worry about that. Bioware would probably rape your wallet though.....

[Osvir]

Good points Kaine

[BetrayTheWorld]

[The other reason is that RPGs tend to be egalitarian and you'd need some female-on-male rape just because]

 

This statement represents everything wrong with the world right now, so far as political correctness goes. If only ONE such incident occurred in the game, and it was a female-on-male incident, would there be some big political outcry? No, of course not. But if you go the other way with it, boom, accused of not giving both sexes equal representation. The double standards in what is and is not politically correct is ridiculous. I wish everyone would back off and let people exercise a little artistic license.

 

Some of the most mature games I've played were Teen rated and they barely broached the topic of romance, let alone sex. There was no excess of violence or gore and a large number of battles could simply be avoided by a diplomatic tongue.

 

The reason I found these games to be infinitely more mature than other titles is because they challenged me in a very adult manner. They gave me scenarios that forced me to question my deepest beliefs and occasionally had me completely U turning and supporting a cause I never believed I would. They required me to puzzle through some of the hardest riddles and word games. They required me to choose between my closest friends, my own well being and the characters outside of my party that I had grown to love.

 

They were fueled by deep, engaging and belief shattering stories. Stories that made me turn not only on my companions, but also on my Gods. Stories that made me question my sense of justice, my morality and my mortality. Stories full of torturous horrors that were neither violent nor gorey, but things that disturbed me to my very core.

 

A mature game, to me personally, is something that can boast a deep, intellectual, emotional and engaging story line. Capable of challenging me intellectually, emotionally and philosophically. I have no doubt that Project Eternity will produce such a game.

 

Nice description. Mind telling me what game/s you're referring to so I can have a point of reference against that description?

[Mandragore]

People have already touched on a few things that I'd like to see in the game; racism (as opposed to some schmultzy forgotten realms love in), some social commentary injustice etc along with rape and other cringe inducers.

 

One thing that hasn't really been mentioned so far though is violence. I'm not talking about gore or violence in combat, which I assume will be present regardless. What I would like to see are options for your protagonist to use violence as a problem solver ala mass effect. Assassination, execution, torture etc. Some situations where good PCs are confronted by ends vs means scenarios and have the chance to compromise their moral code or situations where evil PCs can just cut loose.

[-Zin-]

A right use of rape in stories .. You know what? I'm actually not a fan. It removes the entertainment value for me. It's just a very distasteful story-mechanic and I sort of become bored and uncaring at that point. Rape isn't a mature thing. In fact, it's just the exact oposite. It's an immature tool used by a person who can't attract the other person by being his/her natural self, or maybe he/she is just trying to insult the victim. Rape isn't a big deal to me. In truth, rape only devalues the person commiting the act, not the victim. I feel the criminal isn't worth a second thought at that moment he does it. Theft, murder, tresspassing, and other crimes may have justified reasons behind them. Killing can in many unique situations be justified and glorified, but there is no moral high ground for rape. I for one don't need a game to imply rape or show it to know someone is a villain. Rape is just a side-product of other crimes like assault, slavery, and so forth. The rape adds nothing to the game aside from de-valueing the villain. Really, having rape for the sake of being 'mature' is childish, and it's sort of messed up that people want it. I learned about rape when I was 4-5 years old, and to be careful around strangers. I knew about that stuff long before I knew about attraction and that marriage isn't a super-glue to keep two people together.

 

Besides, victims of rape in real life just want to kick back and enjoy a video game. They don't need a reminder that triggers an uncontrollable feeling of guilt and remorse. I've read some of certain victims' thoughts on the matter, and even though they can logically understand that they're not at fault, they're still subconsciously and emotionally disturbed at the mere mention of the word 'rape'. That's a bother I'm willing to spare them. It's not like saving the victims in the game, ignoring them, or making matters worse for them, will give real life life victims a good feeling. It's not a thing they overcome. It's like a mental wound. It's a condition they need to manage the remaining time of their life. So yeah, no to the rapey-thing just because the game is rated 'mature'. More often than not, being mature is about showing a little restraint. I get somewhat miffed that people hear "mature theme" and associate it with "rape" when real kids in less fortunate countries face daily trauma. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go read about how grown terrorist soldiers around in Africa systemically enters villages and rapes little girls/boys before brainwashing their broken will to become child soldiers. You can then suggest you want to see that in a game, but I done my homework and can manage without, and I'll be a little upset if you can't too.

Edited November 12, 2012 by -Zin-

[Solonik]

In the end, what made PTS "mature" for me is that each character had a REALISTIC agenda and that the author clearly paid attention to how things work in the real world (irl, yo).

[jezz555]

Without naming any names I'm confused by the fact that some people here seem to think that the inclusion of "mature themes" which is to say sexism, racism, sex, ect. actually take away from the maturity of a game, and then attempt to flip it around and call into question the maturity of those who enjoy realistic and mature settings. These things are typically omitted from games and other media for the express purpose of making them kid friendly, perhaps on occasion they are added to a narrative to make it more "gritty" but I'd rather that than feel like I'm playing a Disney movie. I for one have always had a base disgust for anything to do with censorship, and all I really ask is that obsidian does what they think is best, not what's socially acceptable, or kid friendly. Maturity to me, means a realistic world, were nothing is held back, and that's what I hope to see.

[Orogun01]

Without naming any names I'm confused by the fact that some people here seem to think that the inclusion of "mature themes" which is to say sexism, racism, sex, ect. actually take away from the maturity of a game, and then attempt to flip it around and call into question the maturity of those who enjoy realistic and mature settings. These things are typically omitted from games and other media for the express purpose of making them kid friendly, perhaps on occasion they are added to a narrative to make it more "gritty" but I'd rather that than feel like I'm playing a Disney movie. I for one have always had a base disgust for anything to do with censorship, and all I really ask is that obsidian does what they think is best, not what's socially acceptable, or kid friendly. Maturity to me, means a realistic world, were nothing is held back, and that's what I hope to see.

The Resident Evil movie series is full of gore and yet their target audience seems to be 13 years old, "mature themes" do not a mature story make. The only two reasons why a story would need these explicit adult only themes is either to create setting or as a plot device.

[Rostere]

Amnesia, if it would show the same extraordinaire genius and horror of its own creation but focus all that energy into rape I believe it could just be a disturbing feature no one wants to see and would puke at it. In a more subtle way, where there is implication of it having happened or "fade to black" and then we can destroy the bastards that did it, or even hunt them down and redeem them after teaching them a hard lesson (nothing sexual, but definitely physical).

So I take it you've never played Penumbra: Black Plague?

[jezz555]

Without naming any names I'm confused by the fact that some people here seem to think that the inclusion of "mature themes" which is to say sexism, racism, sex, ect. actually take away from the maturity of a game, and then attempt to flip it around and call into question the maturity of those who enjoy realistic and mature settings. These things are typically omitted from games and other media for the express purpose of making them kid friendly, perhaps on occasion they are added to a narrative to make it more "gritty" but I'd rather that than feel like I'm playing a Disney movie. I for one have always had a base disgust for anything to do with censorship, and all I really ask is that obsidian does what they think is best, not what's socially acceptable, or kid friendly. Maturity to me, means a realistic world, were nothing is held back, and that's what I hope to see.

The Resident Evil movie series is full of gore and yet their target audience seems to be 13 years old, "mature themes" do not a mature story make. The only two reasons why a story would need these explicit adult only themes is either to create setting or as a plot device.

 

Resident Evil's target audience, is not 13yr olds, if it was the movies would be rated pg13 not rated R, that's just common sense. Now I grant you that they are pretty bad movies, but you're confusing maturity with coherent and well-told narrative. A story could be crappy and mature, or well told and immature, Maturity does not automatically a good story make, but that was never my point. My point was that Maturity adds realism, and provides freedom for the artist to create, which can often make for a better overall story and can't really hurt, (provided you have faith in Obsidian's ability to tell a story).

 

I could also offer you a thousand example's of stories that contain mature themes, and yet are poorly constructed, but they would be equally irrelevant for the reasons I've stated. Resident Evil would still suck if it had no gore, in fact it would probably suck more, who are you to say what is necessary in a story and why? Shouldn't the storytellers be deciding that? Your not the first one to have made this argument, but it remains spotty and ill-concieved.

 

 

A right use of rape in stories .. You know what? I'm actually not a fan. It removes the entertainment value for me. It's just a very distasteful story-mechanic and I sort of become bored and uncaring at that point. Rape isn't a mature thing. In fact, it's just the exact oposite. It's an immature tool used by a person who can't attract the other person by being his/her natural self, or maybe he/she is just trying to insult the victim. Rape isn't a big deal to me. In truth, rape only devalues the person commiting the act, not the victim.

 

We all know that rape is bad, I don't think anyone on here was claiming otherwise, the inclusion of rape in games is in no way intended to be an affirmation of the act itself and I'm not sure why you would even imply such a thing. The reason for having rape in games, is because it exists in the real world, more so in the middle ages and the idea behind a role playing game is immersion

Edited November 12, 2012 by jezz555

[Jojobobo]

Besides, victims of rape in real life just want to kick back and enjoy a video game. They don't need a reminder that triggers an uncontrollable feeling of guilt and remorse. I've read some of certain victims' thoughts on the matter, and even though they can logically understand that they're not at fault, they're still subconsciously and emotionally disturbed at the mere mention of the word 'rape'. That's a bother I'm willing to spare them. It's not like saving the victims in the game, ignoring them, or making matters worse for them, will give real life life victims a good feeling. It's not a thing they overcome. It's like a mental wound. It's a condition they need to manage the remaining time of their life. So yeah, no to the rapey-thing just because the game is rated 'mature'. More often than not, being mature is about showing a little restraint. I get somewhat miffed that people hear "mature theme" and associate it with "rape" when real kids in less fortunate countries face daily trauma. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go read about how grown terrorist soldiers around in Africa systemically enters villages and rapes little girls/boys before brainwashing their broken will to become child soldiers. You can then suggest you want to see that in a game, but I done my homework and can manage without, and I'll be a little upset if you can't too.

I understand your point, but then what about racism? I'm sure at least someone who plays this game will have endured severe racism at some point, so is having racism in the game - even if it's between fantasy races - acceptable because of how it may affect that person? I'm sure rape - if it were to be included in the game - would probably be between fantasy races too, but as you point out that wouldn't stop a person mapping it to their own trauma if they had suffered. In fact, for any one of the mature themes (severe deprivation, sadistic torture of violence, sexism, etc.) a case could be made - and if the main yard stick used as to why a theme is included in the game is "How many people would this deeply upset" (with rape I'd imagine it would be significantly more than other themes) that probably isn't the best way go about things.

 

I think as long as the themes are handled carefully and correlate strongly to real life examples, then the inclusion of any theme is acceptable. For me I don't need to find all concepts in the game fun to find them enjoyable, and if something does unsettle me slightly then I'll find it interesting because it has made an emotional impact. Really that's the whole point of using a mature theme in the first place, to challenge and possibly slightly disturb the player because it resonates with them.

 

If the devs really wanted to muddy the waters about these themes, then they could have likeable characters being racist and quite possibly former rapists. Say you had a really likeable Paladin NPC, and you build a strong relationship with him and become interested in his character, only to find out that he only took his knightly oaths because he raped someone and felt remorse and wanted to turn his life around - to me this would be very compelling as it would challenge me on a very big level. Rape is without a doubt wrong, but does that mean a rapist is forever without redemption - very difficult to judge and very interesting.

 

I'd like to see some horrible characters in untouchable positions of power too. In so many games you get some slimy unpleasant character but it's fine because you can kill them, or ruin them, or whatever. In real life things don't always work like this, and you sometimes get a complete sleaze that you can't do anything about (for example a serial killer who is wealthy, well protected and has all the local constabulary in his pocket). Though this would leave a bad taste in some people's mouths, it is realistic.

 

As a final point, many people are focusing on the fact that witnessing something horrible is the worst thing possible in a game - for me it is not. Witnessing a racial attack for example, though unpleasant, is at least a simplistic observation. Hearing a voice actor however tell the character of something truly unspeakable they did in lavish detail, you can practically hear the actor drooling, for me would be far more unnerving. Point being, there's more than one way to relay an event and make it horrible than simple visuals.

[Osvir]

Amnesia, if it would show the same extraordinaire genius and horror of its own creation but focus all that energy into rape I believe it could just be a disturbing feature no one wants to see and would puke at it. In a more subtle way, where there is implication of it having happened or "fade to black" and then we can destroy the bastards that did it, or even hunt them down and redeem them after teaching them a hard lesson (nothing sexual, but definitely physical).

So I take it you've never played Penumbra: Black Plague?

 

Not the Black Plague no, I did play the one where you start off in freezin antartica and have to survive and then you find a hatch and then you go down and then I got scared after 10-15 minutes and stopped playing then I picked it up a week later and got to some mines and dogs that weren't so scary and then I got bored because the game stopped scaring me haha, irony eh?

 

EDIT: I've never played Amnesia either, only watched Let's Plays of it and I'm honestly not interested in sullying my pants. It is entertainment and laughable to watch someone else shriek, less entertaining to be the one shrieking (if you value masculinity, which I don't ironically enough... I just dislike the horror theme of Amnesia/Penumbra/Slender and similar games, I personally like intelligent mind wrenching horror and not splatter/morbid horror).

 

EDIT: The Ghost House in Vampire: The Masquerade felt like something in between and is pure genius imo.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Osvir

[-Zin-]

Hm, yeah, those are some very valid points. I respect them completely and feel free to carry on

[BetrayTheWorld]

Besides, victims of rape in real life just want to kick back and enjoy a video game. They don't need a reminder that triggers an uncontrollable feeling of guilt and remorse. I've read some of certain victims' thoughts on the matter, and even though they can logically understand that they're not at fault, they're still subconsciously and emotionally disturbed at the mere mention of the word 'rape'. That's a bother I'm willing to spare them. It's not like saving the victims in the game, ignoring them, or making matters worse for them, will give real life life victims a good feeling. It's not a thing they overcome. It's like a mental wound. It's a condition they need to manage the remaining time of their life. So yeah, no to the rapey-thing just because the game is rated 'mature'. More often than not, being mature is about showing a little restraint. I get somewhat miffed that people hear "mature theme" and associate it with "rape" when real kids in less fortunate countries face daily trauma. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go read about how grown terrorist soldiers around in Africa systemically enters villages and rapes little girls/boys before brainwashing their broken will to become child soldiers. You can then suggest you want to see that in a game, but I done my homework and can manage without, and I'll be a little upset if you can't too.

I understand your point, but then what about racism? I'm sure at least someone who plays this game will have endured severe racism at some point, so is having racism in the game - even if it's between fantasy races - acceptable because of how it may affect that person? I'm sure rape - if it were to be included in the game - would probably be between fantasy races too, but as you point out that wouldn't stop a person mapping it to their own trauma if they had suffered. In fact, for any one of the mature themes (severe deprivation, sadistic torture of violence, sexism, etc.) a case could be made - and if the main yard stick used as to why a theme is included in the game is "How many people would this deeply upset" (with rape I'd imagine it would be significantly more than other themes) that probably isn't the best way go about things.

 

I think as long as the themes are handled carefully and correlate strongly to real life examples, then the inclusion of any theme is acceptable. For me I don't need to find all concepts in the game fun to find them enjoyable, and if something does unsettle me slightly then I'll find it interesting because it has made an emotional impact. Really that's the whole point of using a mature theme in the first place, to challenge and possibly slightly disturb the player because it resonates with them.

 

If the devs really wanted to muddy the waters about these themes, then they could have likeable characters being racist and quite possibly former rapists. Say you had a really likeable Paladin NPC, and you build a strong relationship with him and become interested in his character, only to find out that he only took his knightly oaths because he raped someone and felt remorse and wanted to turn his life around - to me this would be very compelling as it would challenge me on a very big level. Rape is without a doubt wrong, but does that mean a rapist is forever without redemption - very difficult to judge and very interesting.

 

I'd like to see some horrible characters in untouchable positions of power too. In so many games you get some slimy unpleasant character but it's fine because you can kill them, or ruin them, or whatever. In real life things don't always work like this, and you sometimes get a complete sleaze that you can't do anything about (for example a serial killer who is wealthy, well protected and has all the local constabulary in his pocket). Though this would leave a bad taste in some people's mouths, it is realistic.

 

As a final point, many people are focusing on the fact that witnessing something horrible is the worst thing possible in a game - for me it is not. Witnessing a racial attack for example, though unpleasant, is at least a simplistic observation. Hearing a voice actor however tell the character of something truly unspeakable they did in lavish detail, you can practically hear the actor drooling, for me would be far more unnerving. Point being, there's more than one way to relay an event and make it horrible than simple visuals.

 

I generally like your posts, and this one is no exception. Worrying about hurting everyone's feelings all the time is the reason entertainment seems more shallow these days. Without being able to approach sensitive topics, various medias will seem bland and lacking in substance. I mentioned it before, and I feel like the post you've responded to was a result of this "culture of politeness" that skews everything in the US from entertainment to education and politics.

 

"I worry that we are approaching a time when that which is shocking is squeezed out by the Stalinism of political correctness."

 

"Over-reaching political correctness is chipping away at the fundamental American freedoms of speech and expression."

[HangedMan]

I just want to say, Jojobobo, you are an awesome dude. I fully support and agree with your own position on these matters.

[Jojobobo]

Cheers! I guess I feel so long as these issues are dealt with using sincerity, the dev team would be fine covering any topic they want.

[mcmanusaur]

Putting in shock value for the sake of it isn't mature. Such things are pointless unless they are deeply entwined in the narrative and overall "feel" of the game.

[JOG]

What has racism (or generally intolerance towards anyone who is different, be it color of skin, disablements or religion) to do with mature themes anyway?

It's not like there is a shortage of it in T-rated media.

 

Racism (specism?) between elves and dwarves is a standard fantasy trope, the only thing that can make them work together is their common racism vs. orcs.

 

And racism because of different skin color and facial features is also commonplace. The FR even have it set in the rules: dark skinned elves and dwarves are evil. Always. Well, almost... Racism of the surface races vs. drow runs like a golden thread throughout the whole Drizzt saga, and it even goes the dangerous path to say that this racism is justified, and that the one dark skinned guy who is treated unjustly has to accept this, and has to work to show that he is better than the rest of his race.

Edited November 12, 2012 by JOG

[jezz555]

Putting in shock value for the sake of it isn't mature. Such things are pointless unless they are deeply entwined in the narrative and overall "feel" of the game.

 

Well then it's a good thing nobody was advocating for mature themes "just for the sake of them". Honestly this is such a strawman.

[Osvir]

Putting in shock value for the sake of it isn't mature. Such things are pointless unless they are deeply entwined in the narrative and overall "feel" of the game.

 

Well then it's a good thing nobody was advocating for mature themes "just for the sake of them". Honestly this is such a straw man.

 

I've been seeing that word floating around in several forums and I've been wondering what it means. (Please explain it to me if I'm misunderstanding it, jezz555 looks more like a straw man comment/input when I look at the wikipedia explanation to be honest... was that what you initially meant?)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

I can't see anything in mcmanusaur's post that is straw man behavior (if he had quoted someone perhaps). Looks more like something to think about to me.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Osvir

[anubite]

An immature theme would be something which:

 

-Blindly throws stereotypes around

-Does not dwell on any single topic too long

-Cheep thrills

-Smoke and mirror-style writing, action, and gameplay

-Gratuitous story-telling (the protagonist gets everything he wants, is always right, etc)

-Censors things from the audience that the author thinks is 'inappropriate'; thinking the audience cannot handle that discussion/material

-There's a moral to the story, it's the author's moral. You're going to sit down and listen to it.

-Characters are vehicles for a plot or a plot is just a way to get characters into gratuitous situations (in essence, the plot or the characters service only the audience and are not faithful to any kind of story or theme)

-Camera-zooms on the tight backends of characters while they talk

 

Basically, Mass Effect 2.

 

So basically, by mature themes, we mean, the opposite of everything I just wrote.

[jezz555]

Putting in shock value for the sake of it isn't mature. Such things are pointless unless they are deeply entwined in the narrative and overall "feel" of the game.

 

Well then it's a good thing nobody was advocating for mature themes "just for the sake of them". Honestly this is such a straw man.

 

I've been seeing that word floating around in several forums and I've been wondering what it means. (Please explain it to me if I'm misunderstanding it, jezz555 looks more like a straw man comment/input when I look at the wikipedia explanation to be honest... was that what you initially meant?)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

I can't see anything in mcmanusaur's post that is straw man behavior (if he had quoted someone perhaps). Looks more like something to think about to me.

 

It's not a term I like to use often, because some people don't know what it means and it makes me sound pretentious, but in essence, It means rebutting the argument you would like your opponent to have made rather than the one they actually made. No one was arguing for "mature themes just for the sake of them" and yet that was what mcmanusaur was arguing against, thus he was rebutting a strawman argument.

Edited November 12, 2012 by jezz555

[Osvir]

Thanks

[PsychoBlonde]

Dial up the subtlety. You have to tell someone that their husband was killed in battle? Instead of "OH GOD, WHATEVER WILL I DO!!!! *sob*" How about "I . . . thank you for telling me. Please, if you would . . . I need some time."

 

Related to the question above, would people miss clear, "hysterical" NPCs if they're presented with more subtle dialogue? After all, it has to make an impact on you (or at least try to). Morte basically only had over the top, cheesy dialogue, but people mostly loved him.

 

You're thinking hysterical means humorous. It doesn't. It means wildly, violently emotional in an extremely demonstrative way. It is the antonym of reserved. Morte was a reserved character--he used humor, sarcasm, and occasionally outright lies to cloak his past and his emotions. Being reserved doesn't mean you can't be friendly, talkative, or humorous. It means you don't go around shoving your problems in people's faces.

 

It is the difference between someone who, when they cut themselves, says "well damn" and goes and gets a bandage, and someone who, when they cut themselves, screams for help, passes out, demands immediate help, acts like they're dying, cusses out the person trying to clean the injury, and overall acts like a four-year-old.